Eternal Security and church membership

[Madeline]

I hold firm to my belief regarding the doctrine of Eternal Security and I won't change my mind. I did however want to get a second opinion about what a Pastor (65-70 yrs old) had told me at a Baptist church. I asked him if he believed in Eternal Security, and he said if a believer denies his faith, then he can lose his salvation. I then quoted John 5:24 and 10:27,28.

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life..

John 10:27,28 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

I told him how Jesus said in John 5:24 that the one who "hears" and "believes" has (present tense) eternal life (FOREVER). And he told me...do you know what Eternal means? and I told him forever, and I also quoted John 17:3 on what Eternal Life also means.

John 17:23 - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

And he said, NO, what DOES eternal mean? and I said "forever, without end, and to KNOW Jesus Christ and the True God". And he said, if you have eternal life and can't lose it, then that means that you had it before you were saved. Jesus is God and God is eternal, which means that He had no beginning and will never have an end. Then he said, that would mean that you had eternal life before you were saved because eternal means without beginning or end. That made no sense (nonsense) to me because if what he said were true, then that means that I had eternal life before I decided to "hear" and "believe", which is absurd because that's not what the "context" states. Furthermore, even IF that were true, then how can I lose it if it is eternal (without beginning or end)? I then quoted again John 10:28, where Jesus said that His sheep will NEVER perish, and IF His sheep can or could/would wander astray and deny their faith...then they would perish which would deny Jesus' words of how His sheep can never perish. He then God upset and laughed haughtily at the same time and told me that he is not going to debate this, and if I were to read the Word of God as he would then I would understand how correct he was. Afterwards, I confronted a church member about this in the parking lot as I was leaving church and told him what the pastor believed concerning eternal security, and the Pastor laughed and giggled in the distance. Should I be a member of this church?

Love,
Madeline

[Just_A_Thought]

I hold firm to my belief regarding the doctrine of Eternal Security and I won't change my mind. I did however want to get a second opinion about what a Pastor (65-70 yrs old) had told me at a Baptist church. I asked him if he believed in Eternal Security, and he said if a believer denies his faith, then he can lose his salvation. I then quoted John 5:24 and 10:27,28.

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life..

John 10:27,28 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

I told him how Jesus said in John 5:24 that the one who "hears" and "believes" has (present tense) eternal life (FOREVER). And he told me...do you know what Eternal means? and I told him forever, and I also quoted John 17:3 on what Eternal Life also means.

John 17:23 - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

And he said, NO, what DOES eternal mean? and I said "forever, without end, and to KNOW Jesus Christ and the True God". And he said, if you have eternal life and can't lose it, then that means that you had it before you were saved. Jesus is God and God is eternal, which means that He had no beginning and will never have an end. Then he said, that would mean that you had eternal life before you were saved because eternal means without beginning or end. That made no sense (nonsense) to me because if what he said were true, then that means that I had eternal life before I decided to "hear" and "believe", which is absurd because that's not what the "context" states. Furthermore, even IF that were true, then how can I lose it if it is eternal (without beginning or end)? I then quoted again John 10:28, where Jesus said that His sheep will NEVER perish, and IF His sheep can or could/would wander astray and deny their faith...then they would perish which would deny Jesus' words of how His sheep can never perish. He then God upset and laughed haughtily at the same time and told me that he is not going to debate this, and if I were to read the Word of God as he would then I would understand how correct he was. Afterwards, I confronted a church member about this in the parking lot as I was leaving church and told him what the pastor believed concerning eternal security, and the Pastor laughed and giggled in the distance. Should I be a member of this church?

Love,
Madeline

I would diffidently leave. For 2 reasons...

1) First, his doctrine is way off...

2) Second, he has a proud spirit and that is never good. He should want to talk to you about it to teach you.

I must say though, you should not be going to other church members about this. You should leave quietly...

I hope you make the right decision...

God Bless!!!!!

[Revelation3:20]

I hold firm to my belief regarding the doctrine of Eternal Security and I won't change my mind. I did however want to get a second opinion about what a Pastor (65-70 yrs old) had told me at a Baptist church. I asked him if he believed in Eternal Security, and he said if a believer denies his faith, then he can lose his salvation. I then quoted John 5:24 and 10:27,28.

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life..

John 10:27,28 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

I told him how Jesus said in John 5:24 that the one who "hears" and "believes" has (present tense) eternal life (FOREVER). And he told me...do you know what Eternal means? and I told him forever, and I also quoted John 17:3 on what Eternal Life also means.

John 17:23 - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

And he said, NO, what DOES eternal mean? and I said "forever, without end, and to KNOW Jesus Christ and the True God". And he said, if you have eternal life and can't lose it, then that means that you had it before you were saved. Jesus is God and God is eternal, which means that He had no beginning and will never have an end. Then he said, that would mean that you had eternal life before you were saved because eternal means without beginning or end. That made no sense (nonsense) to me because if what he said were true, then that means that I had eternal life before I decided to "hear" and "believe", which is absurd because that's not what the "context" states. Furthermore, even IF that were true, then how can I lose it if it is eternal (without beginning or end)? I then quoted again John 10:28, where Jesus said that His sheep will NEVER perish, and IF His sheep can or could/would wander astray and deny their faith...then they would perish which would deny Jesus' words of how His sheep can never perish. He then God upset and laughed haughtily at the same time and told me that he is not going to debate this, and if I were to read the Word of God as he would then I would understand how correct he was. Afterwards, I confronted a church member about this in the parking lot as I was leaving church and told him what the pastor believed concerning eternal security, and the Pastor laughed and giggled in the distance. Should I be a member of this church?

Love,
Madeline

He is wrong and you are correct. I imagine his doctrine comes from a improper understanding of Matthew 10:33 and Hebrews 6:4-9. I would not personally be part of a church where the pastor did not believe in such an important doctrine as the eternal security of the believer. I would venture a guess that if he is wrong on this issue he is probably wrong on other serious issues too. Bad doctrine is rarely alone.

[JerryNumbers]

He is a false teacher and should not be behind a pulpit. We are to separate from false teachers.

[heartstrings]

Salvation is not a joke. I would get away from that man as quick as I could.
Proverbs 19:27 Proverbs 15:21 Proverbs 14:7

[Madeline]

Thanks for the replies. I am in agreement because I felt an opposing spirit coming from him as soon as I set foot in that church as he stood in front of the pulpit.

Love,
Madeline

[PreacherBen]

I asked him if he believed in Eternal Security, and he said if a believer denies his faith, then he can lose his salvation.

He would have been more accurate if he would have said, "If a professor denies his faith, then he can lose his salvation."

Your choices of scripture were excellent. The believer, does not deny the faith. Oh, he may backslide, but he has the Spirit of God indwelling him and he will live up to those words Jesus said:

John 10:27,28 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

You notice I said the professor loses "his" salvation. That is because he never had the one Jesus promised. I believe is someone walks away from their profession and never returns, then they did not get the life Jesus promised. He said they hear his voice and follow. That is pretty cut and dried, if they do not follow this directive, they did not get true salvation in the first place.

Eternal is a quantity, not a quality. I heard a false teacher state one time trying to teach that one can lose his salvation, "The gift of God is eternal life, this would be better rendered, divine life..." You see he had to criticize the bible in order to justify his false teaching. I agree that salvation from God is divine life, but the text says...eternal.

[HappyChristian]

Madeline, an interesting thing that I heard once was the difference between the terms everlasting and eternal.

Everlasting means no beginning, no ending. Eternal means no ending...it could have no beginning also, but definitely no ending.

We are not everlasting. We have a beginning. Once our souls are created, they are eternal - no ending. Salvation is eternal - no ending.

God is everlasting and eternal! No beginning, no ending.

[JerryNumbers]

He would have been more accurate if he would have said, "If a professor denies his faith, then he can lose his salvation."

Your choices of scripture were excellent. The believer, does not deny the faith. Oh, he may backslide, but he has the Spirit of God indwelling him and he will live up to those words Jesus said:

John 10:27,28 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

You notice I said the professor loses "his" salvation. That is because he never had the one Jesus promised. I believe is someone walks away from their profession and never returns, then they did not get the life Jesus promised. He said they hear his voice and follow. That is pretty cut and dried, if they do not follow this directive, they did not get true salvation in the first place.

Eternal is a quantity, not a quality. I heard a false teacher state one time trying to teach that one can lose his salvation, "The gift of God is eternal life, this would be better rendered, divine life..." You see he had to criticize the bible in order to justify his false teaching. I agree that salvation from God is divine life, but the text says...eternal.

I agree, I think, but I want to add this thought.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

A person can't lose what they never had, many of those who think they lost their salvation & or those who say they lost their salvation, never had it. Of course those who claim we can lose your salvation has never understood God's Word.

In the past I have stated anyone who was of us ,that left us, that never returned to us before their death, was never saved. I've believe that statement was not a wise statement, I believe I should have use the words, might not have be saved or probably was not saved.

When this subject comes up I can't help but think of Lot and the direction he pitched his tent and how it seemed to end and what these verses in the New Testament says about him.

2Pe 2:7

[His by Grace]

Madeline, Who does the saving? Who keeps you saved? Is it by your righteousness or Christ's righteousness that the Father sees when He look's upon your sin's covered by the blood? Where were all your sin's when Christ died for you? Think about it! You were a Child of Wrath but are now His Child whom He will chasten but never will He kick you out of His family!! Your stuck with us!!! In Christ's love, His by Grace

[Wilchbla]

We have been united with Christ through the Spirit. We have become flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone. It wouldn't matter if someone did deny him or "stop believing" if that were possible for a believer. He cannot deny himself. For him to deny us would be in essence him denying his own body.

[JerryNumbers]

7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Phil 4:7 (KJV)

3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

2 Thess 3:3 (KJV)

12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

2 Tim 1:12-14 (KJV)

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jude 1:24 (KJV)

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:37 (KJV)

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 17:12 (KJV)

God keeps us saved and promises us that none of us will be lost, no one can take us out of His hands.

[LaniValdez10]

We have been united with Christ through the Spirit. We have become flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone. It wouldn't matter if someone did deny him or "stop believing" if that were possible for a believer. He cannot deny himself. For him to deny us would be in essence him denying his own body.

It was really nice to know that you have been united with Christ through the Spirit. HE is the one who creates us. HE is the one who really loves us. HE is the one who leads us to the right path... So, everyone of us should be UNITED with HIM through the SPIRIT.

[His by Grace]

Thank you so much for explaining this because I've never heard it explained so clearly. I get it now!! Really a huge blessing for me!! His by Grace

Madeline, an interesting thing that I heard once was the difference between the terms everlasting and eternal.

Everlasting means no beginning, no ending. Eternal means no ending...it could have no beginning also, but definitely no ending.

We are not everlasting. We have a beginning. Once our souls are created, they are eternal - no ending. Salvation is eternal - no ending.

God is everlasting and eternal! No beginning, no ending.