Another Gospel

[Guest Guest]

[quote]
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
[/quote]

This verse is the cornerstone verse of Calvinist's who teach that regeneration must take place before enlightenment.


My Saviour Leads Me wrote

[quote]
Forgive me for not making myself more clear. the reason that i used this portion of scripture is that we were discussing translations and i asked you where the Holy Spirit fit in. i was trying to explain through the use of scripture how that without the Spirit of God we cannot understand any translation the Spirit illumines us the Holy Scriptures.
[/quote]

I agree that the unsaved can not understand Spiritual things. If we be honest, infants in Christ can not either.

[quote]
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, [b]the deep things of God[/b].
[/quote]

Can a man understand the statement in the scriptures?

[quote]
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
[/quote]

Can a man (without being moved upon by the Holy Spirit) recieve these verses? Sure He can.

Jerry wrote;
[quote]
IThomas, I am not sure what you are saying in your above post. The Gospel is about the Saviour, who was both man and God - in fact, God manifest in the flesh.
[/quote]

Jerry;

Christ was as much man as He was God. No man will ever know Christ as God without knowing His priestly work of becoming man. Is this why Paul simply called Him. The man.... This is His work of being Mediator. No man can come to God but by Him. I am not trying to discredit Him as God. For in Him is the fulness of the Godhead bodily and we are complete in Him. Salvation is being made extremely complicated in this apostate age. Man must simply go the man Christ Jesus. The Mediator.

Also, as to the idea of the Spirit moving upon the unregenerate before unenlightenment or to enlighten.

[quote]
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
[/quote]

The world can not recieve the Spirit of truth. Unregenerated man can not recieve the Spirit. He can recieve the Gospel and the Man Christ Jesus.

Jerry? Why did Paul say under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, simply "the man" Christ Jesus and not the God man Christ Jesus?

[Jerry]

[quote]
Jerry? Why did Paul say under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, simply "the man" Christ Jesus and not the God man Christ Jesus?
[/quote]

Because in that ONE verse he was emphasizing the Mediatorship of Christ - the go-between. As Man, He was the Mediator between God the Father and mankind.

But you are stating your opinion like this is Paul's regular emphasis or manner of speaking, but it is not.

This is the Gospel:

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

According to Paul, the resurrection is proof that Jesus is God:

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

So to believe the Gospel certainly includes calling upon God (The LORD Jesus Christ) to save you:

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[quote]
If we be honest, infants in Christ can not either.
[/quote]

The only limit God places upon us understanding spiritual things is when we are carnal. It is true a babe in Christ will not be able to grasp as much - this will come with growth. The difference I am trying to state is: the carnal cannot understand, the babes will only understand in part - until they growth enough to do so. Either way, old or new Christian, we still need the Holy Spirit to open up the Scriptures to us and to teach us.

[quote]
Can a man (without being moved upon by the Holy Spirit) recieve these verses? Sure He can.
[/quote]

Not according to the Biblical definition of receive. He might hear them and say he believes them, but he will not understand them fully or receive what God wants him to learn from them. For example, I can read John 3 and learn the history of the passage, get a general grasp of what was said - but without the Holy Spirit enlightening me, I will not be able to understand the "spiritual meaning" of the passage.

[quote]
The world can not recieve the Spirit of truth. Unregenerated man can not recieve the Spirit. He can recieve the Gospel and the Man Christ Jesus.
[/quote]

John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This passage is stating that we cannot receive the comfort that the Holy Spirit can bring us if we are not His children. It is not talking about receiving the Holy Spirit in the sense of getting saved (He dwells us quite apart from any conscious choice in the matter when we turn to the Saviour for salvation), nor receiving His witness - because is what happens when we respond to the Gospel. We are certainly lost UNTIL that point in time.

[Guest Guest]

Jerry;

I am not discrediting the need for a man to know that Christ is God. A unsaved man can not even begin to know the deity of Christ. He can be told and through faith accept this truth.

Man can know about man. He can know that a man who knew us, (in that He was man)gave himself for us. He can go to that man.

I really fail to see your use of 1 Cor 10:13 has anything to do with this?

As far as my statement about being infants. Baby christians are carnal. There is no doubt about that. Can you show me in the scriptures where a baby Christian is not carnal? I can show where they are declared to be

[quote]
1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even [b]as unto babes in Christ.[/b]
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
[/quote]


Jerry wrote;
[quote]
Not according to the Biblical definition of receive. He might hear them and say he believes them, but he will not understand them fully or receive what God wants him to learn from them. For example, I can read John 3 and learn the history of the passage, get a general grasp of what was said - but without the Holy Spirit enlightening me, I will not be able to understand the "spiritual meaning" of the passage.
[/quote]

Please show me one verse in John 3 in the conversation that Jesus had with Nicodemus where Jesus told Him one spiritual thing? Just one?

I do not think that Jesus lied.

[quote]
Joh 3:12 If I have told you [b]earthly things[/b], and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things
[/quote]

The heavenly aspect was right in front of him. They only one from heaven. Christ Jesus. Nicodemus could go to him as a man. Jesus talked to him as a Man.


Jerry wrote
[quote]
This passage is stating that we cannot receive the comfort that the Holy Spirit can bring us if we are not His children
[/quote]

I think it says the Spirit. Can not recieve the Spirit. Sure a man can not recieve the comfort of the Spirit,, because the world can not recieve the Spirit.

What makes a man stop counting the things of the Spirit as being foolishness?

The answer is the Gospel. (Preached by man, to man about the Man Christ Jesus)

What aspect of the Gospel can a man understand without the impartation of the Spirit?

The answer is The Man Christ Jesus as Mediator.

What convicts the sinner?

The Word sent forth [b]from [/b]the Preacher who is filled with the Spirit.

[Jerry]

[quote]
I really fail to see your use of 1 Cor 10:13 has anything to do with this?
[/quote]

That's good - it was an oversight/error on my part. I was copying some references out of 1 Corinthians, and typed 1 Cor 10.13 instead of Romans 10.13. I didn't even read the verse, just copy/pasted it. Thanks for pointing it out. Corrected now.

[Jerry]

No - the Bible does NOT say baby Christians are carnal. They may not be. What it does state is that a carnal Christian is as (or like) a baby Christian. Big difference. It is proper for a baby Christian to need to drink milk and learn the basics, and learn how to walk with the Lord - baby steps. BUT it is not proper for an older Christian to be the same way. They should have reached a greater level of maturity in the Lord, in His Word, in their walks with the Lord.

[Jerry]

[quote]
Please show me one verse in John 3 in the conversation that Jesus had with Nicodemus where Jesus told Him one spiritual thing? Just one?
[/quote]

:?: The WHOLE conversation was spiritual: being born again, believing on the only begotten Son of God for salvation, explaining what the serpent in the wilderness was a picture of, etc.

[quote]
What makes a man stop counting the things of the Spirit as being foolishness?

The answer is the Gospel. (Preached by man, to man about the Man Christ Jesus)

[b]What aspect of the Gospel can a man understand without the impartation of the Spirit?[/b]

The answer is The Man Christ Jesus as Mediator.
[/quote]

No one is EVER saved apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. But that is not imparting the Holy Spirit to them, that is the Holy Spirit work of testifying of Christ, enlightening them to the truth, convicting them of sin, etc. He does that on their hearts and minds, then when the truth is received (sin repented of and the Saviour received), they are born again.

Joh 16:7 ¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And [b]when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment[/b]:
Joh 16:9 [b]Of sin, because they believe not on me;[/b]
Joh 16:10 [b]Of righteousness[/b], because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 [b]Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged[/b].
Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 [b]He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.[/b]

[Guest Guest]

Jerry wrote;
[quote]
The WHOLE conversation was spiritual: being born again, believing on the only begotten Son of God for salvation, explaining what the serpent in the wilderness was a picture of, etc.
[/quote]

[size=18]?[/size] So Jesus lied? Please explain how Jesus himself saying....
[quote]
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
[/quote] does not mean what it said.

The whole conversation was told in earthly illustrations. I think I will believe the scriptures when Jesus said he spoke of earthly things.

You mentioned John 16:7-14

Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

[b]This is answered in verse 9-11[/b]

Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Is not this the Gospel. If you want to say that the Holy Spirit's work is the Gospel. (which it is of coarse) then.. Yes the Holy Spirit's work is done when the Gospel is preached to someone. You make this to be that the Spirit itself moves upon unregenerate man to convict him of sin. Simply the Gospel is for this purpose.

[quote]
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
[/quote]

You also highlighted

[b]Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.[/b]

This is for the redeemed. The Spirit shows things to the lost? He does through the Gospel. You make it so that the Spirit must move on a man before he can even go to God.

What draws a man?

[quote]
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
[/quote]

The Gospel of Christ Jesus draws a man, not a moving of the Spirit to overwhelm his choices.

How about?

[quote]
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
[/quote]

Also, can the Spirit move upon a man without the preaching of the Gospel?

[Guest Guest]

[quote]
No - the Bible does NOT say baby Christians are carnal. They may not be. What it does state is that a carnal Christian is as (or like) a baby Christian. Big difference. It is proper for a baby Christian to need to drink milk and learn the basics, and learn how to walk with the Lord - baby steps. BUT it is not proper for an older Christian to be the same way. They should have reached a greater level of maturity in the Lord, in His Word, in their walks with the Lord.
[/quote]

So carnal Christian and baby Christian have something in common? They are babies?

The word for carnal is found 130 times in the majority text. The vast majority of that time it is translated flesh. The baby in Christ most assurdly is more fleshly than Spiritual.

Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have [b]their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.[/b]

Only those of full age can discern between good and evil

[Jerry]

[quote]
Yes the Holy Spirit's work is done when the Gospel is preached to someone. You make this to be that the Spirit itself moves upon unregenerate man to convict him of sin. Simply the Gospel is for this purpose.
[/quote]

The Holy Spirit uses the Gospel.

[quote]
The Spirit shows things to the lost? He does through the Gospel. You make it so that the Spirit must move on a man before he can even go to God.
[/quote]

You are 100% right there! No man can be saved apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. He sought us first, and [b]He [/b]calls us through the preaching of the Gospel.

[quote]
What draws a man? The Gospel of Christ Jesus draws a man, not a moving of the Spirit to overwhelm his choices.
[/quote]

No one here is talking about God forcing or overwhelming something. There are only a couple out of hundreds of members here that are Calvinistic.

Again, no one can be saved without the Holy Spirit's work of convicting and enlightening men to the truth of the Gospel. This is why it is imperative that we are filled with the Spirit when we preach, teach, or witness - otherwise, the words alone will not bear fruit. The medium the Spirit uses to bring faith is the preaching of the Gospel. They must both go together.

[quote]
So Jesus lied? Please explain how Jesus himself saying....
The whole conversation was told in earthly illustrations. I think I will believe the scriptures when Jesus said he spoke of earthly things.
[/quote]

Jesus did not say He didn't or wasn't going to speak on spiritual things - what He said was that Nicodemus couldn't even understand what Jesus said already - when He compared the physical birth to the Spiritual birth. He then goes on to talk about the serpent in the wilderness - which was a type of Christ - definitely a spiritual illustration!

[Jerry]

[quote]
Only those of full age can discern between good and evil
[/quote]

No, it is saying those who are of full age can - it does not say no one else can. Obviously, someone not mature will not be able to do it as effectively - that is what the exercising of this discernment is all about. How can you exercise something you don't even have. You must have muscles to be able to develop them and make them stronger. Even a baby Christian can have discernment if they take the things in their life and bring it under the searchlight of Scripture. As they grow and mature, they will be better equipped to do so.

As a brand new Christian, I took all that was in my life (music, books, movies, video games, etc.) and compared what they said, taught, contained, etc. with what the Bible taught. There was a measure of discernment the Lord gave me right away (as I obeyed clear commands and principles of Scripture), and some things I learned over time - in other words, my ability to discern according to the Word of God was exercised and strengthened as I grew in the Lord and applied what I knew as I walked with Him.

[Guest Guest]

Jerry wrote
[quote]
You are 100% right there! No man can be saved apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. He sought us first, and He calls us through the preaching of the Gospel.
[/quote]

The work of the Holy Spirit is the Gospel. It is not a moving of the Spirit upon unregenerate man to convict. The Gospel does this. He sought us first?.... He sought the whole world first when he died for all men. So He came looking for you specifically?

About Calvinist's. I could argue that what your have said so far is from the Calvinist view. You still believe that the Spirit itself (there is not a thing earthly that was not or is not because of the Spirit or by the Spirit. We are talking the specfic personage of the Spirit) must move upon unregenerate man. A core doctrine of a Calvinist. You simply do not believe that it is irresistable. Am I incorrect?

So verse # 14 is spiritual?

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

He was lifted up in front of the very people you now are reading the Gospel from. The eye witnesseses.... You are reading their record. Nicodemus saw this first hand.

[Guest Guest]

Jerry wrote;

[quote]
No, it is saying those who are of full age can - it does not say no one else can
[/quote]

So those that are not of full age can? I think exercising the scriptures brings about full age. Those that are not of full age just like it says.... Can not discern the fulness of good and evil.

Brother, how many years have your lived with the Lord and been blind to certain things in your life? One can not even begin to know certain things or be convinced of certain things until he has been with God for years.

We as a body have made salvation far too complicated and after man's own wisdom. We judge the truth by what we know now and not what we knew then. A man only has to know the Gospel. The Gospel should be preached simply... That is Christ and Him crucified. Not that you can't get saved any time you want to and the like....

A man can not get saved unless he wants to.

[quote]
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
[/quote]

How does a man hear His voice? The Gospel.

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

lthomas, do you also go by the name DocCas?

[Chelle]

[quote]
lthomas, do you also go by the name DocCas?
[/quote]

I could be wrong, BBB, but I don't think he is. DocCas is from California. Besides, he had a different "style" than [b][u]lthomas[/u][/b].

[Guest Guest]

[quote="lthomas"]
The work of the Holy Spirit is the Gospel. It is not a moving of the Spirit upon unregenerate man to convict. The Gospel does this. He sought us first?.... He sought the whole world first when he died for all men. So He came looking for you specifically?

The Holy Ghost will reprove the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgement to come. He uses the gospel to do this. I think you are "splitting hairs."

About Calvinist's. I could argue that what your have said so far is from the Calvinist view. You still believe that the Spirit itself must move upon unregenerate man. A core doctrine of a Calvinist. You simply do not believe that it is irresistable.

The Spirit moves upon a man when he hears the gospel. Although he can "move" also upon someone to put him/her in a place to hear it as in the case of Cornelius.


Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

He was lifted up in front of the very people you now are reading the Gospel from. The eye witnesseses.... You are reading their record. Nicodemus saw this first hand.
[/quote]

Verse 14 is "spiritual" in that it is a TYPE of what was to happen to Christ. Just because something is earthly doesnt necessarily mean it isnt spiritual.
Wil