Rapture Thought is Nuts

[gsmp]

Y'all are funny.... As much as I have been out here and reading threads....I have come to the realization that y'all couldn't stay on topic if your very lives depended on it....

Just making sure nothing is being lobbed my way........

The "Revrend" is so wrong.....several good points made on that one all ready.....

Good Point on Luther...... :thumb .Let's not leave out Calvin...don't forget all the hard work Calvin did in his turn to purge the "heretics".

As far as the "Left Behind" books.......please correct me if I am wrong...all though why I would be stupid enough to say something like that around here... :loco ..No problem with correction here....just that some of you do it so kindly and give gentle correction unless the person is a brick...other's I will bare the carotid artery now.......that way you can take aim....


Her is my issue with fictional books that potray the rapture....and this is evident in the LB books. Yes..I will give you the argument that they could be used as a witnessing tool....but they soooo miss lead.

I thought scripture teaches that if a person has heard the message of Christ and rejected salvation....that they do not get a second chance in the rapture....they will be filled with a delusion and believe the message of the Anti-christ.

This gives people a false sense of..."oh I have time....if I don't do it now...when it gets bad I can do it then...I mean what if these rapture people are wrong..." that bother's me....

But then you have the "Reverand".....telling people it "ain't" gonna happen....that is no different than the idiots out there preaching that our God is a loving God and He would never condemn any one to hell........

Helloooooo....Our God is a just God....who hates sin....those who reject His plan of salvation ...well...guess what they go to hell.....and those who think the rapture isn't going to happen...or think they have a second chance......All of this is just another deceptive tool being used by Satan....to send more to hell.....

There were so many things covered here, I could mention a couple other points..but I am trying to stay on topic......any way...go ahead...take aim.....

[JerryNumbers]

You need to understand why the "Reverend" says the Rapture is rubbish.

See, she's a Lutheran. Lutheranism, whether the liberal or old-line ones, believe in Amillennialism.

They do believe in a "Rapture", but it's different from what the Scriptures say so.

Their "Rapture" is this: at an unknown time, everyone, whether living or dead, saved or lost, will be raptured, and Judgment Day will begin straightaway. No millenial kingdom. No 7 year tribulation.

In addition Lutheranism also believes in these serious errors:
- Baptismal regeneration (see Luther's Large Catechism)
- Loss of salvation
- Plus a lot of RCC-related doctrine.

IMO, the Lutherans are the Protestant group closest to the RCC in doctrine. No surprise that they are the first group to sign a "Joint Agreement" with the RCC.

So I don't understand why so many Christians, even IFBs, laud Luther as an important man of God.

I've wondered that too, but many Baptist sure do quote Luther very much. As for me I consider him a false teacher. It was great that he stood up against the RCC and that he came out of the RCC, but he brought to much of the RCC with him and all he did was start another false teaching group that will lead many people thru the doors of hell.

[RandyW]

I've wondered that too, but many Baptist sure do quote Luther very much. As for me I consider him a false teacher. It was great that he stood up against the RCC and that he came out of the RCC, but he brought to much of the RCC with him and all he did was start another false teaching group that will lead many people thru the doors of hell.

If you lived in Luthers day, which church would you attend? Luther taught Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God and called Him Lord. I certainly can disagree on the many denominational positions, but I would disagree that Luther lead people to Hell. If any hears the message it is to the Lord that they goto for forgiveness of sin no matter what the motive of the preacher. Luther was a product of his day. He to saw wrong in the established church and sought to correct what he could.

Randy

[Jerry]

Da 9:27 And he (Jesus/God) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

Many like to "twist" the above verse into meaning a "half week", instead of one week, the "HE" into Satan/AC.

Da 9:27 and in the midst of the week (half week) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, (Abomination of Desolation)

The "Abomination" is too GOD, not Satan, "HE" God stops the sacrifices.

You are dead wrong here:

Daniel 9:26-27 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It is the prince that shall come that makes the covenant. Who is the prince? It is not Jesus. It was not His people that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple! It was the Romans - and later, the Antichrist will have some connection with that world empire. He is the one that will make a 7 year peace treaty and break it.

Jesus refers to this in Matthew 24, and states that is when the Jews need to flee for the Judean hills. 2 Thessalonians 2 also refers to this. Jesus is not the abomination of desolation - the antichrist and the idol he sets up in the temple are.

[Me4Him]

You are dead wrong here:

Daniel 9:26-27 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It is the prince that shall come that makes the covenant. Who is the prince? It is not Jesus. It was not His people that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple! It was the Romans - and later, the Antichrist will have some connection with that world empire. He is the one that will make a 7 year peace treaty and break it.

Jesus refers to this in Matthew 24, and states that is when the Jews need to flee for the Judean hills. 2 Thessalonians 2 also refers to this. Jesus is not the abomination of desolation - the antichrist and the idol he sets up in the temple are.

"Shall confirm for one week"

Ok, show me with scripture "WHAT IT IS" that "SHALL BE CONFIRMED FOR ONE WEEK".

and don't shorten the Interpretation to a "HALF WEEK".

Da 11:23 And after the league (treaty) made with him he shall work deceitfully:

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,

Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (abomination of desolation,)

The AC of the first half of the trib is a "PEACE MAKER".

Da 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Da 11:24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province;

For the first 3 1/2 years of the trib, it's "Peace and safety".

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

About the middle of the trib, the AC receives the "head wound", his "Body" is "reincarnated" by the "Spirit from hell", (Judas) to the world he'll appear to be "resurrected", he then enters the temple and from this point on is the "GREAT TRIBULATIONS", the spirit from hell is only given 42 months, or 3 1/2/ years, last half of the trib.

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit,

Re 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

The "Problem" with your interpretation is that the AC doesn't make and keep (confirm) a treaty for "ONE WEEK",

the "HE" can only be the one who does keep (Confirm) his covenant for one week.

The "PRE TRIB RAPTURE" is the only doctrine taught in scripture that the New Covenant shall be confirmed only with "MANY" rather than with "ALL BELIEVERS"

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

1Th 3:13 at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

[Jerry]

Daniel 9 teaches he breaks the treaty at the midpoint - that makes for 1/2 a week. That is why the book of Revelation is divided into two 3 1/2 year periods.

For the record, the Bible does not teach that the Antichrist (ie. the man) receives a head wound and comes back to life, but that the empire he is ruling from does so:

Revelation 13:1-3 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 17:9-10 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings (ie. kingdoms, as the context indicates): five are fallen (ie. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece), and one is (Rome), and the other is not yet come (the final form of Rome); and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

[Me4Him]

Daniel 9 teaches he breaks the treaty at the midpoint - that makes for 1/2 a week. That is why the book of Revelation is divided into two 3 1/2 year periods.

For the record, the Bible does not teach that the Antichrist (ie. the man) receives a head wound and comes back to life, but that the empire he is ruling from does so:

Revelation 13:1-3 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 17:9-10 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings (ie. kingdoms, as the context indicates): five are fallen (ie. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece), and one is (Rome), and the other is not yet come (the final form of Rome); and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Who do you suppose the "Beast" is that receives satan power, the "SON" of perdition????

The "SON OF SATAN" (perdition) mimics Jesus in many areas, Peace maker, dying/reincarnated (resurrection), God/Satan giving their "SONS" their power, even calling himself God.

The "Strong delusion" (Lie) God sends (or allows) is the "Son of perdition" appearing to be the messiah, Satan is the "FATHER" of a "LIE".

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not:
(as being the Messiah)

if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
(as being the Messiah)

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

When you compare the AC to Jesus, you'll find he mimics Jesus in many areas, dying/returning to life is just one of them, and if you've noticed, the Great trib doesn't begin until the "Spirit from hell" (Judas) is back on earth and "FATHER/SON" are working together again.

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, (on earth) and is not; (now) and shall ascend (back) out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

The "war" between the "SONS", Jesus/Perdition, ends with Jesus's return, but the war between the "FATHERS", God/Satan, doesn't end until the GWT, Satan is only bound up at the end of the trib.

[Jerry]

I just gave you the Scripture that shows what God meant by the seven heads - so why are you missing it and insisting on your interpretation? The heads are not individuals, but empires/kingdoms - and it is an empire that receives a head wound a comes back to life, not an individual.

[Me4Him]

I just gave you the Scripture that shows what God meant by the seven heads - so why are you missing it and insisting on your interpretation? The heads are not individuals, but empires/kingdoms - and it is an empire that receives a head wound a comes back to life, not an individual.

The "Beast" is a "person", not an "empire",

Empire don't die and go to hell and return.

Re 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

The "False prophet" has them worshipping "his God", the "SON OF PERDITION" just as Elijah the prophet pointed to "his God", Jesus.

Re 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Re 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

1Ki 18:37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
38 Then the fire of the LORD fell,
39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.

Re 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

As I said, the "Son of predition" (AC) mimics the "Son of God" (Jesus) in many areas, dying/returning to life is just one of them.

[Jerry]

The beast is an empire ruled by one leader at a time - same as in the book of Daniel. Babylon was represented by a lion, one ruler at a time - but the lion was the Babylonian empire.

Revelation 17 quite clearly stated the beast with the seven heads represented 7 world empires - and it is one of those heads that was wounded and came back to life - so what's the debate? The empire dies and comes back - not an individual - unless you don't believe Revelation 17 (which defines what the heads represent) is not inspired Scripture...

[Me4Him]

The beast is an empire ruled by one leader at a time - same as in the book of Daniel. Babylon was represented by a lion, one ruler at a time - but the lion was the Babylonian empire.

Revelation 17 quite clearly stated the beast with the seven heads represented 7 world empires - and it is one of those heads that was wounded and came back to life - so what's the debate? The empire dies and comes back - not an individual - unless you don't believe Revelation 17 (which defines what the heads represent) is not inspired Scripture...

I agree, the Roman Empire is revived, but what you're missing is the fact that a "Person" of the Roman empire is "revived" along with the Empire.

Re 17:11 And the beast that was, (on earth) and is not, (now) even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

A single prophecy can have a "DUAL" fulfilment, one spiritual, one literal, to cover "BOTH" coming of Jesus.

In Jesus's first coming, "SPIRITUAL VISION" was required to "SEE/RECOGNIZE" each individual,

but "LITERAL VISION" will work the "SECOND TIME".

The promise to "send Eliajh" was "Spiritually fulfilled" in "John the Baptist", but the "Literally" Elijah will come as one of the two witnesses.

Preterist interpret the prophecies "Spiritually" with the first coming of Jesus as having already occurred, while most of the church views the same prophecies "Literally" as still being in the "Future", very few "SEE" both sides of these prophecy.

[Jerry]

If you think it refers to both, what were you arguing about earlier in the thread for? :loco

[Me4Him]

If you think it refers to both, what were you arguing about earlier in the thread for? :loco

You said:

it is an empire that receives a head wound a comes back to life,

not an individual.

[Jerry]

Thanks for the answer - clear as mud...

[Me4Him]

Thanks for the answer - clear as mud...

I'm not "HERE" everyday, so there's times I lost track of exactly what has been said, I don't re-read all the post.