Repeating a prayer

[Jerry]

There are no instances in the bible where salvation was the result of prayer.

Luke 18:13-14 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Luke 23:42-43 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

We are told to confess with our mouth.

And quite clearly this is necessary for salvation. How can you confess to God without any prayer?... :puzzled:

[JerryNumbers]

If I understand this right, Jerry80871852 has been saying that someone will confess to others what Jesus did after they got saved. That this will be a clear evidence of what took place.

Jerry80871852,

There were some who seemed to be implying that confessing meant saying a certain set of words at the point of salvation, whereby to gain salvation. I think that is where the confusion is coming in.

God bless!

Aboustely!

I suppose it seems strange to many that right after God inspired Paul to write this.

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)

God went on and inspired Paul to write these words.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10:11 (KJV)

Right, Paul speaks of confession made with the mouth them goes on to say if one is really saved they will not be ashamed, that is ashamed to confess with their mouth that Jesus is their Savior.

Its evidence that one has truly been saved.

By the way, how do you know if someone is saved, 99% of the time its because you have heard words coming from their mouth stating they have accepted Jesus as Savior.

Now if someone came forward in our church service and wanted to be baptized and become a member of our church and they completely refused to make any statement about accepting Jesus as their Savior, I would them ask the church what their will was, my advice would be to refuse them entrance into our church, because of.

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10:9-11 (KJV)

Obliviously they are not saved and or they are ashamed to confess Jesus as Savior according to the inspired Word of God.

And don't go off on a smoke screen chase trying to change the doctrine of the Bible, I'm speaking about someone who can talk with their mouth.

Please take close notice, in 2 verses right in a row Paul uses these phrases, {Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth"}, Romans 10:10 {"with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."}

It rightly amazes me at the many who try to rewrite the KJV of the Bible, but yet they claim it is the only authority, most definitely God inspired Paul to write this and it is talking about confessing using your voice in many different verses.

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Matt 10:32-33 (KJV)

8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
Luke 12:8-9 (KJV)

46 I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed.
Psalms 119:46 (KJV)

12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
1 Tim 6:12 (KJV)

What is a good profession before many witnesses? Of course its speaking of one who has often talked about Christ their Savior before men.

15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1 John 4:15 (KJV)

Yes, I have doubts about the person salvation who will not speak about their salvation, serious doubt, just as I have doubt about those who claim to be saved but yet will not take that 1st step of righteousness and be baptize after claiming salvation, unless there is some type of health issue that prevents a person being baptized.

And please, I did not say no where that confessing before man or baptizing saves a person, but again, there has to be a problem if a person refuses this.

And as a pastor of Jesus' Church I am to guard it against unbelievers entering it, try as best I can that those who enter it are saved. I can't read the heart as Jesus can, the only thing I can go by is what comes out of a person mouth. If they want speak of Jesus being their Savior, want speak of that time when they were saved, them no, our church will not accept them.

[Madeline]

Luke 18:13-14 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Luke 23:42-43 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.



And quite clearly this is necessary for salvation. How can you confess to God without any prayer?... :puzzled:

Jerry...your'e inserting your personal interpretations into the text. Where does it state in Luke 18:13 that prayer is required for Salvation? That verse tells us that the publican realized just how wretched he was in his present sinful condition. I think that some here have it backwards so to speak. Justification by faith comes independently of the works which that justification produces. Opening my mouth in prayer isn't going to save me unless I have genuine faith, and that begins with the heart. Prayer is the result of our faith, which we are justified by. I reiterate, prayer is a work and works are the result of our faith. Hope this helps!

Love,
Madeline

[Jerry]

In this thread, I see two people redirecting the passage, and one person given a different meaning to it. What does it say?

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It quite clearly states above - in those verses quoted - that this confession is part of HOW TO BE saved - it is not stating HERE that a saved person WILL confess, but that this confession is HOW a person gets saved in the first place. THEREFORE, it must be referring to confessing to God (such as 1 John 1:9) is referring to. And let's make the same usage of words here - no one gets their sin forgiven in 1 John 1:9 without praying to God about those sins - the same goes here: there is no salvation without turning to the Lord in prayer. I am not saying "a sinner's prayer" is required - I am saying praying is required.

Again, let's deal with the verses and not redirect them - they are not referring to confessing before men AFTER salvation (though the Bible does address this elsewhere in entirely different contexts), but confessing to God IN ORDER THAT THEY SHALL BE SAVED.

And don't run to another verse to state this can't be referring to praying - let's deal with these specific verses here and what they are saying. THAT is what I am debating, not the rabbit trails or the sideswipes (whether intentional or not) of the passage.

[Jerry]

prayer is a work and works are the result of our faith.

Without going off track here, please give Scripture to show where prayer is stated to be a work. People do the same thing with repentance - they subtly redefine it as a work and then state that it cannot be a part of salvation, because that would be man working for it.

[Madeline]

Jerry it's really quite simple. Why would anyone decide to pray to God if they didn't have faith? We are saved by faith alone (Jn. 3: 16-18; Acts 15:9,11; Rom. 1:16; Eph. 2:8,9; 1 Jn. 5:10-13). Confessing means speaking out before at least one other. Also, for some contrast straight from the Bible, I refer you to Matthew 7:21-23, which says, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." "Matt. 12:34....for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh."


Love,
Madeline

[Jerry]

Reason all you want - but don't "reason" away a passage. From a plain reading of Romans 10:9-10, it quite clearly states that this confession IS PART OF HOW TO BE SAVED. These verses are not dealing with what the saved will do AFTER they get saved, but is explaining HOW to be saved.

If you have a conclusion on a passage that contradicts other Scriptures, then the problem is with your understanding of that passage. ALL Scripture on salvation (or on any specific theme) goes together - it is not one verse/passage versus another - it is both. If your conclusion cannot take in all the passages on that theme, then you have the wrong conclusion and have not rightly divided the Word of truth.

[JerryNumbers]

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9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Luke 18:9-14 (KJV)

But above you will find and example of a man who prayed who had not faith, the Pharisee, maybe this will answer your question.

Your question means nothing with the matter your discussing.

[JJJ4given]

I suppose it seems strange to many that right after God inspired Paul to write this.

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)

God went on and inspired Paul to write these words.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10:11 (KJV)

Very interesting. I can't say I had looked at it that way before, though I had considered it, I hadn't taken in verse 11 into the picture. It is interesting how he is quoting scriptures from the OT, so I believe referring back to those scriptures he is quoting can give us a more clear understanding of this passage.

I have found that in the scriptures, not every time it mentions the word "salvation" is it dealing with a point in time in which a person believes, but sometimes can deal with the maturing process(2 Timothy 3:15, Philippians 2:12, 2 Cor. 7:10 and many more) and in other times can deal with deliverance from this present world(1 Peter 1:5, Hebrews 6:9, Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 1:14, 2 Timothy 2:10, 1 Thessalonians 5:8 and 9, Romans 13:11 and many more). The word simply means that: deliverance.

I am going to need to study out the OT cross-references Paul used to examine your take on it. So far you have a very strong argument in which the word "salvation" would need to be referring to the growth of that Christian. Such as used in:

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

2 Corinthians 1:6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

The idea being that the meaning for the word salvation in Romans 10:10 as in these other verses is a walk which takes place after believing, and the first step in that walk after you believe is to confess to others what took place. You rightly will not be ashamed.

Anyhow, I can see a strong argument for your take on these verses.

God bless!

[Jerry]

So far you have a very strong argument in which the word "salvation" would need to be referring to the growth of that Christian.

Don't confuse yourself!! Romans 10 (the context of the WHOLE chapter) is dealing with salvation - deliverance from sins - not any kind of deliverance as a believer. Hence, the need for those who bear the Gospel message to those who have never heard.

Salvation means deliverance - the context determines what type of deliverance: ie. whether from sins, from enemies, from trials and afflictions, from sickness, from a guilty conscience, etc. The term salvation has nothing to do with growth and is never used that way in the Scriptures - yes, there are passages where God promises deliverance to those who trust in Him (ie. to those who are mature in the faith, who have grown) - but the passages do not equate the two.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

This verse is dealing with salvation - the Scriptures are able to make us wise enough, even as children, to know how to be saved.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

This is stating to work out our salvation in our day to day lives - it is not dealing with being delivered from anything here, but stating that salvation will change our lives, will be worked out as we walk with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 1:6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

This isn't dealing with maturity as a believer - it is dealing with trials and afflictions - stating that God comforts believers in their trials so that they in turn can comfort others until they are delivered from that trial.

[Samer]

I think there's a very dangerous situation with many professing Christians, in that the hope of their salvation lies in their having prayed a prayer. Many people think they're going to Heaven because they prayed a sinner's prayer, and were told that's how to get saved. The answer to the question "What is your hope of Heaven?" is not "I prayed the prayer 10 years ago," but "Jesus Christ paid for my sins, and I believe in Him and trust Him to save me."

I think we ought to be careful in claiming prayer as the necessary to step for the sinner to be made right with God. Madeline says it's a work. Well, perhaps it's hard to tell, but in comparison, baptism is very much a public confession of the Lord Jesus. We know that Acts 2:38 does not mean baptism is itself the cause of salvation, and we often tend to understand the word "for" in that verse as meaning "because of," yet that word "for" and this word "unto" in Romans 10:10 are, in Greek, the same word, eis, meaning "into" or "to." I think we ought to understand Acts 2:38 and Romans 10:10 in similar light.

In what sense is confession "unto" salvation? Did not the first part of the verse say belief is unto righteousness? Isn't righteousness salvation? It almost seems belief and then confessing that belief are two salvations, but verse 8 seems to help. What comes from the heart in verse 10 is the same as is in the mouth in verse 8, which is the word of faith in the mouth, and in the heart. It is the same faith. It through faith that we are saved. Confession is "unto salvation" insomuch as baptism is for the remission of sins: both are done in light of something, and as a witness thereof, but neither is said to be the effacious cause of imputed righteousness--that's the first half of Romans 10:10. If confession is the effacious cause of salvation being understood as imputed righteousness, then the first half of the verse, "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness," loses its meaning.

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16a). Notice the similarity. Of course, in Mark 16:16, we have the last half to explain it, but there is definitely a parallel between Mark 16:16a and Romans 10:10. Note both verses place salvation in the future--"shall be saved"; "unto salvation." We know in Mark 16:16 that he that believeth and is baptized is saved, and, from the whole testimony of Scripture, was saved prior to the baptism (which serves, in part, as a confession of Christ).

Contradiction? Nay... I was saved from the penalty of sin (justification--Titus 3:5); I am being saved from the power of sin (sanctification--Romans 6:22, Philippians 2:12); and I will be saved from the presence of sin (glorification--Romans 5:10, 13:11). Confession and baptism are natural outpourings of a heartfelt faith, which, without works, is dead, being no faith at all. Yet it is not confession or baptism that effects to us instantaneous justification, but rather, the faith that moves us to do so--the faith in our mouth. Will there be confession? Yes there will. In that sense, we can say the soul who does not confess Christ will not be saved, because the soul who is saved will confess Christ. But confession is not the salvation, because many have some outward confession, and have no inward saving faith.

Romans 10:11b: "Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." Believeth and confesseth? No, for he who believes will confess. He who believes will also follow in various good works, but the heart-faith is what saves.

Romans 10:13-14a: "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?" Belief precedes confession. They're separated in time. The question stands: Is a person saved just after he has believed, but just before he has confessed? Some may call it a non-issue, but replace "confessed" with "been baptized" and you have an argument many of us will use against the baptismal-regeneration heresy. Does faith save? Of course.

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."

What is this, if not a willful decision in the heart to trust Jesus Christ as the salvation of one's soul? Consider again the Ethiopian eunuch, who believed, and was saved. Philip said the condition of baptism was belief, as in, faith.

I think it's important to understand the instant righteousness is imputed to a soul is the instant that soul exercises saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Then, God gives the Holy Spirit, and then:

"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father" (Galatians 4:6).

The confession of the saved. Perhaps it could also be said all who by the Spirit cry "Abba, Father" will be saved. But I don't think we ought to isolate any one verse from the whole of Scripture, especially regarding justification and the means thereof.

[Jerry]

Who has ever been saved without consciously turning to the Lord and calling upon Him in prayer?

Were you? Anyone else on these boards?

Everyone I know who was ever saved, there was a time and a place where they turned to the Lord and confessed (to God) their need of Him and receiving Jesus and His free gift of salvation. I truly do not know how you can be saved without acknowledging to God (ie. confessing) that you are a sinner in need of His salvation (not arguing some specific formula or specific words in approaching God - but do believe in turning to the Lord in prayer).

[Jerry]

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I did a trace of the phrase "call upon" throughout the Bible - it is used 26 times. Please show me by these passages, where the idea that to call upon someone means to just think about them - no, it means to pray.

Genesis 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

Deuteronomy 4:7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?

1 Chronicles 16:8 Give thanks unto the LORD, call upon his name, make known his deeds among the people.

Job 27:10 Will he delight himself in the Almighty? will he always call upon God?

Psalms 18:3 I will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies.

Psalms 50:15 And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.

Psalms 55:16 As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.

Psalms 80:18 So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.

Psalms 86:5 For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.

Psalms 86:7 In the day of my trouble I will call upon thee: for thou wilt answer me.

Psalms 91:15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.

Psalms 99:6 Moses and Aaron among his priests, and Samuel among them that call upon his name; they called upon the LORD, and he answered them.

Psalms 105:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; call upon his name: make known his deeds among the people.

Psalms 116:2 Because he hath inclined his ear unto me, therefore will I call upon him as long as I live.

Psalms 116:13 I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD.

Psalms 116:17 I will offer to thee the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and will call upon the name of the LORD.

Psalms 145:18 The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.

Proverbs 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

Isaiah 12:4 And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted.

Isaiah 41:25 I have raised up one from the north, and he shall come: from the rising of the sun shall he call upon my name: and he shall come upon princes as upon morter, and as the potter treadeth clay.

Jeremiah 29:12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.

Jonah 1:6 So the shipmaster came to him, and said unto him, What meanest thou, O sleeper? arise, call upon thy God, if so be that God will think upon us, that we perish not.

Zephaniah 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

The only ones that could even possibly be taken the way Madeline takes them is the first and the last of all of these passages - and that would give it a usage that is contrary from all these other passages. The best way to determine what a word or phrase means is to see how it is used throughout the Bible.

[Samer]

Who has ever been saved without consciously turning to the Lord and calling upon Him in prayer?

Were you? Anyone else on these boards?

Everyone I know who was ever saved, there was a time and a place where they turned to the Lord and confessed (to God) their need of Him and receiving Jesus and His free gift of salvation. I truly do not know how you can be saved without acknowledging to God (ie. confessing) that you are a sinner in need of His salvation (not arguing some specific formula or specific words in approaching God - but do believe in turning to the Lord in prayer).

I agree, Jerry. I think the issue is, at what instance is justification imputed--at heart-belief, or after prayer? They're two separate events, and, although often separated by mere seconds, I think it's an interesting question to consider.

[JJJ4given]

You said:

The term salvation has nothing to do with growth and is never used that way in the Scriptures

And then:

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

This is stating to work out our salvation in our day to day lives - it is not dealing with being delivered from anything here, but stating that salvation will change our lives, will be worked out as we walk with the Lord.

Anyway, whether or not we agree on which verses have which meaning of deliverance or, as you put it "(salvation) will be worked out as we walk with the Lord", I think we can both agree that it definitely has different meanings in different places.

However, the point of Romans 10 I believe can be best summarized in verse 4:

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Paul is covering a lot of ground to get this point across, and in that he is covering a lot of ground, Jerry80871852 has a very valid argument.

He covers Israel preferring their own righteousness instead of God's

He quotes scripture after scripture to back up what is said in verse four


It is interesting that he is writing all of this to ultimately ask for support for a missions trip to Spain. Not that that has anything to do with what we are dealing with. :lol

Anyhow, I think what a great deal of us are against, and you as well, Jerry, is someone feeding people a line of words to repeat(1-2-3 repeat after me) and then telling them they are O.K. and eternally secure. No one is saying that prayer isn't a necessary thing, but are saying that the prayer itself is not what saves, it is with the heart. This is because God already knows where our heart is at before the prayer is even uttered there. I don't know if it happened on the "I" or the "surrender" or the "all", but somewhere in between there the Lord took a lost athiest and forgave his sins and gave him life eternal. It was not in the words but in my heart's condition.

God bless!