If you could read Hebrew and Greek

[Jerry]

Hm, God has prohibitions/warnings in the beginning of the Bible for not tampering with any of His Word, in the Law - Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32.

Then He has some in the middle, in the Writings (or Psalms section, as designated by Jesus) - Proverbs 30:5-6.

Then He has some in the Prophets - Jeremiah 26:2.

But I guess in the New Testament these no longer apply...

It is interesting to note that Revelation 22:18-19 refer to the prophecies of this book. Does that mean ONLY the specific book of Revelation, OR the whole Book (ie. Bible)? How else is that word used in Revelation? Yes, some verses refer specifically to that book, but this one refers to the whole Bible:

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The heart of all prophecy (ie. the Word of God) is its witness/testimony of Jesus Christ.

Either way, if verses 18-19 only referred to Revelation, those other verses teach we are not to add or subtract from God's Word. Also, 2 Peter 3:15-16 teaches we are not to twist God's Word - that about covers all the Bible corruptions we see today: adding, subtracting, twisting.

[Calvary]

That "Erasmus had to find the ending of Revelation outside of the Greek mss story" as been thoroughly debunked. There simply is no proof for it.

Fact is he had available mss that were withing a days ride of his home. He had accessed them often.

I file that right with the King James was a queer stories.

Perhaps you brethren should get yourselves updated. :smile

God bless,

Calvary

[Will]

That "Erasmus had to find the ending of Revelation outside of the Greek mss story" as been thoroughly debunked. There simply is no proof for it.

Fact is he had available mss that were withing a days ride of his home. He had accessed them often.

I file that right with the King James was a queer stories.

Perhaps you brethren should get yourselves updated. :smile

God bless,

Calvary

I am fairly well updated. There's no reason for you to always conclude that those who hold dissimilar positions to your own are ignorant and backwater Calvary.

[Calvary]

@Will,

Backwater and ignorant? Please refrain from putting words or thoughts into my mouth. I said nothing of the kind.

Evidently you're not up to date enough as you are repeating information that you have neither proved to be true or given any source for your information.

Simply saying that Erasmus had to rely upon latin mss for such and such readings is not sufficient for me to just roll over and say, "Oh it must be true, Will said so!". I have read that info for years, even Doctor Edward Hills states as such, a man whom I have utmost respect for and whose research for the most part is impeccable. But alas it isn't provable or factual. It is in fact a teaching that has it's font in the schools of liberalism and moderernistic philosophy.

But a lot of things get said and men continue to repeat things with no proof other than that they have read a book or two by James White. [sic]

Be careful not to "repeat a matter" with out proof, or you may in deed appear backwoods and ignorant.

But do remember brother, you placed those words on the board, not I.

Calvary

[John the Baptist]

That "Erasmus had to find the ending of Revelation outside of the Greek mss story" as been thoroughly debunked. There simply is no proof for it.

Fact is he had available mss that were withing a days ride of his home. He had accessed them often.

I file that right with the King James was a queer stories.

Perhaps you brethren should get yourselves updated. :smile

God bless,

Calvary

Would you mind telling me how Erasmas using the Latin manuscripts in Revelation is debuked?

God Bless
Greeker

[Calvary]

The life of Erasmus is in fact a facinating study in the providence of God.

One should aquaint oneself with the books by Froude Life and Letters - Lectures delivered at Oxford 1893 and Short Studies, same author. Also it would do you well to talk of Erasmus after one has read Durant, The Story of Civilization, The Reformation,
Bainton, Erasmus of Christiandom,
Mangan, Life, Character and Influence of Desiderus Erasmus of Rotterdam.

There are also collative works that speak much of the brilliance and the profound knowledge of scripture and texts that this man had aquired throughout his life. Such would be helpful before one simply repeats a tidbit of misinformation by the likes of Kutilek, Metzgar, Coombs or White, and even Scrivner to some extent, all the source of modern day lies as to the so called limitations of texts to which Erasmus had access to.

I would recommend reading some easy to read stuff first before tackling the long, dry and tedious works aforementioned.

Try The New Shaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, or the Cambridge History of the Bible.

It's amazing what one finds when one does his own studies in place of simply reading one sided histories that are antangonistic to the KJB being the final, errorless, preserved authority.


You see Mr Baptist, your 2 earned seminary degrees never even mentioned the aforementioned books did they? I would wager that they never introduced you to Dean Burgon either. Well, as much would be expected since these books would fly in the face of your humanistic reasoning and shallow persepective of what textual studies are really all about. What a shame that you paid for an lopsided education that was biased from the first day you set foot on campus. :smile


God bless,

Calvary

[Will]

The life of Erasmus is in fact a facinating study in the providence of God.

One should aquaint oneself with the books by Froude Life and Letters - Lectures delivered at Oxford 1893 and Short Studies, same author. Also it would do you well to talk of Erasmus after one has read Durant, The Story of Civilization, The Reformation,
Bainton, Erasmus of Christiandom,
Mangan, Life, Character and Influence of Desiderus Erasmus of Rotterdam.

There are also collative works that speak much of the brilliance and the profound knowledge of scripture and texts that this man had aquired throughout his life. Such would be helpful before one simply repeats a tidbit of misinformation by the likes of Kutilek, Metzgar, Coombs or White, and even Scrivner to some extent, all the source of modern day lies as to the so called limitations of texts to which Erasmus had access to.

I would recommend reading some easy to read stuff first before tackling the long, dry and tedious works aforementioned.

Try The New Shaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, or the Cambridge History of the Bible.

It's amazing what one finds when one does his own studies in place of simply reading one sided histories that are antangonistic to the KJB being the final, errorless, preserved authority.


You see Mr Baptist, your 2 earned seminary degrees never even mentioned the aforementioned books did they? I would wager that they never introduced you to Dean Burgon either. Well, as much would be expected since these books would fly in the face of your humanistic reasoning and shallow persepective of what textual studies are really all about. What a shame that you paid for an lopsided education that was biased from the first day you set foot on campus. :smile


God bless,

Calvary

Could you...say...cite a work and give a quotation where it debunks the idea that Erasmus did not backtranslate from Latin?

[John the Baptist]

The life of Erasmus is in fact a facinating study in the providence of God.

One should aquaint oneself with the books by Froude Life and Letters - Lectures delivered at Oxford 1893 and Short Studies, same author. Also it would do you well to talk of Erasmus after one has read Durant, The Story of Civilization, The Reformation,
Bainton, Erasmus of Christiandom,
Mangan, Life, Character and Influence of Desiderus Erasmus of Rotterdam.

There are also collative works that speak much of the brilliance and the profound knowledge of scripture and texts that this man had aquired throughout his life. Such would be helpful before one simply repeats a tidbit of misinformation by the likes of Kutilek, Metzgar, Coombs or White, and even Scrivner to some extent, all the source of modern day lies as to the so called limitations of texts to which Erasmus had access to.

I would recommend reading some easy to read stuff first before tackling the long, dry and tedious works aforementioned.

Try The New Shaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, or the Cambridge History of the Bible.

It's amazing what one finds when one does his own studies in place of simply reading one sided histories that are antangonistic to the KJB being the final, errorless, preserved authority.


You see Mr Baptist, your 2 earned seminary degrees never even mentioned the aforementioned books did they? I would wager that they never introduced you to Dean Burgon either. Well, as much would be expected since these books would fly in the face of your humanistic reasoning and shallow persepective of what textual studies are really all about. What a shame that you paid for an lopsided education that was biased from the first day you set foot on campus. :smile


God bless,

Calvary

You still did tell me how Erasmas using the Latin in translating the book of Revelation is debuked.

God bless
John

[Calvary]

I repeat.

It's amazing what one finds when one does his own studies in place of simply reading one sided histories that are antangonistic to the KJB being the final, errorless, preserved authority.

Gentlemen, even if I did produce the needed source quotes, in my experiences, men much like yoursleves will not be swayed by any facts. You will continue to promote falsehoods as gospel truth.

Mr Baptist, as much as you have read the negative material about Hort, about Wescott, you continue to profer their fodder as a Bible.

My Lord said it is better to not cast pearls before swine.

@ Will,

You may find it quite amazing at what a specific google search will avail. Give it a whirl.

The Bible says to study to show THYSELF approved.

Roll up your sleeves beloved. Do the needful that you might be profited.

God bless,

Calvary

A man convinced against his will remains unconvinced even still.

[Kubel]

From what I have read, Erasmus used Codex 1r which was missing the last leaf (the last 6 verses of Revelation). To further support the idea that it was back translated from Latin, the part where it says "Book of Life" occurs as such in the Latin Vulgate, but is read "Tree of Life" in the Greek. No Greek text that Erasmus had access to contained the reading "Book of Life". The earliest appearance of "Book of Life" comes from Latin. And the Greek words for "book" (βιβλιον) and "tree" (ζ

[Guest Guest]

From what I have read, Erasmus used Codex 1r which was missing the last leaf (the last 6 verses of Revelation). To further support the idea that it was back translated from Latin, the part where it says "Book of Life" occurs as such in the Latin Vulgate, but is read "Tree of Life" in the Greek. No Greek text that Erasmus had access to contained the reading "Book of Life". The earliest appearance of "Book of Life" comes from Latin. And the Greek words for "book" (βιβλιον) and "tree" (ζ

[Jerry]

The problem is not looking up the Greek - the problem is looking up tamperered Greek texts, ie. the Critical Text.

[Will]

I repeat.



Gentlemen, even if I did produce the needed source quotes, in my experiences, men much like yoursleves will not be swayed by any facts. You will continue to promote falsehoods as gospel truth.

Mr Baptist, as much as you have read the negative material about Hort, about Wescott, you continue to profer their fodder as a Bible.

My Lord said it is better to not cast pearls before swine.

@ Will,

You may find it quite amazing at what a specific google search will avail. Give it a whirl.

The Bible says to study to show THYSELF approved.

Roll up your sleeves beloved. Do the needful that you might be profited.

God bless,

Calvary

A man convinced against his will remains unconvinced even still.

So now you're slandering me? Stating that even if you provided proof of such quotes I would remain unconvinced? You made the statement that such quotations exist. The onus is on you to provide such proof.

[Calvary]

@ Kubel,

Hardly brother. There is plenty of evidence.

@ Will (not SOD)

Slander? Hardly, and furthermore, your position was given no source proof whatsoever. Along comes a KJB only and all of the sudden the burden of proof is on him!!??

@ SOD,

What would Jesus do?

A. Inspire a Bible that people could read?
B. Inspire conflicting Greek mss which few could read?
C. Inspire unsaved liberals to write conflicting lexicons that would support conflicting Greek NT's?
D. Inspire the originals and then lose them?


@ Mr Baptist, Will (not SOD) and Kubel et al:

Men like William Coombs continue to influence the fence straddler with statements that say, "There is no Greek mss evidence for the last 6 verses of Revelation, Erasmus pulled them out of thin air, or backtranslated from the latin."

An aside, ya know Kubel, if you would think about it, Erasmus would hardly have confounded the two latin words as you suggested, in fact I dare say that you merely parroted the findings of some one somewhere as you do not read Latin? Erasmus confused over a few Latin words? What a pathetic entry! Surely your source knows nothing of Erasmus or his upbringing.

They say this knowing full well that they misrepresent the truth. They say this knowing that most run of the mill Christians won't suspect that they lie.
Adam is alive and well in KJB critics.

The KJB's "book" does in fact have Greek support.

051, 296, 2049, 2067, mg.

Doctor Herman Hoskier, the world's foremost collator of Revelation mss, says that Erasmus did NOT take the reading from the Latin. (ask Mr baptist if he will share the words of Erasmus himself that I sent him in Latin, PM)
Hoskier maintains that the reading came from 2049 or perhpas 141. (The Text of Revelation)

Let me speak plainly brethren.

A simple review of the critical apparatus' of Von Soden, or Tischendorf's 8th, or Nestle-Aland's 26th, Alford, USB, Metzger, Hoskier, (Revelation) would provide the proof that you seem to need before you will turn away from fables and wives tales.

It is sickening that men have to be convinced like children that the moon is not made of cheese and have mss numbers, names, sources that they neither have never heard of or seen a day in their life quoted before they will simply believe in faith that the KJB is vindicated, was always right, never was in question, will never be found to be in error and therefore more than just trustworthy, but altogether the inspired words of God.

Proof? Even criminals in our judicial system are afforded more respect than you men give the KJB.

I'm done,

Calvary

[Will]

@ Kubel,

Hardly brother. There is plenty of evidence.

@ Will (not SOD)

Slander? Hardly, and furthermore, your position was given no source proof whatsoever. Along comes a KJB only and all of the sudden the burden of proof is on him!!??

@ SOD,

What would Jesus do?

A. Inspire a Bible that people could read?
B. Inspire conflicting Greek mss which few could read?
C. Inspire unsaved liberals to write conflicting lexicons that would support conflicting Greek NT's?
D. Inspire the originals and then lose them?


@ Mr Baptist, Will (not SOD) and Kubel et al:

Men like William Coombs continue to influence the fence straddler with statements that say, "There is no Greek mss evidence for the last 6 verses of Revelation, Erasmus pulled them out of thin air, or backtranslated from the latin."

An aside, ya know Kubel, if you would think about it, Erasmus would hardly have confounded the two latin words as you suggested, in fact I dare say that you merely parroted the findings of some one somewhere as you do not read Latin? Erasmus confused over a few Latin words? What a pathetic entry! Surely your source knows nothing of Erasmus or his upbringing.

They say this knowing full well that they misrepresent the truth. They say this knowing that most run of the mill Christians won't suspect that they lie.
Adam is alive and well in KJB critics.

The KJB's "book" does in fact have Greek support.

051, 296, 2049, 2067, mg.

Doctor Herman Hoskier, the world's foremost collator of Revelation mss, says that Erasmus did NOT take the reading from the Latin. (ask Mr baptist if he will share the words of Erasmus himself that I sent him in Latin, PM)
Hoskier maintains that the reading came from 2049 or perhpas 141. (The Text of Revelation)

Let me speak plainly brethren.

A simple review of the critical apparatus' of Von Soden, or Tischendorf's 8th, or Nestle-Aland's 26th, Alford, USB, Metzger, Hoskier, (Revelation) would provide the proof that you seem to need before you will turn away from fables and wives tales.

It is sickening that men have to be convinced like children that the moon is not made of cheese and have mss numbers, names, sources that they neither have never heard of or seen a day in their life quoted before they will simply believe in faith that the KJB is vindicated, was always right, never was in question, will never be found to be in error and therefore more than just trustworthy, but altogether the inspired words of God.

Proof? Even criminals in our judicial system are afforded more respect than you men give the KJB.

I'm done,

Calvary

So you don't have the proof? Had you asked me for quotations to back up my position, I certainly would have done so. But not only did you not ask, you knew these statements were made already. But when I asked you for quotations and citations, you refuse and now say you're finished.