Bankruptcy and the Christian

[Madeline]

Again...it's not the issue of whether ALMIGHTY GOD can or cannot perform this feat - God will rid Will of his debt, however what many don't seem to realise is the method He may use which may be unexpected to many (I'm sure it will), and in the timing it will be done according to God's plan and purpose.

Proverbs 3:7 - Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

[Danny Carlton]

Kitagrl,

No, I do not believe bankruptcy is ever an option for a Christian. As I already stated, most creditors will work with you and even accept pennies on the dollar as payment in full. Though bankruptcy is a legal option, I do not believe it is the right thing for a Christian as it tells the world that God is not able to provide.

off topic a little: I also don't believe in food stamps and government aid as it sends the same message.

It was last August that I realized our debt, due to numerous issues the major one which was the continual medical care for our two kids with a rare congenital condition, was completely out of hand. We were using almost all of our income to pay the debt, while using credit cards to pay for groceries and medicine. The credit card company's response was to raise our interest rates.

My wife was adamant that we not file bancruptcy, even though her name was not on any of the debt, just mine. So I went with a debt settlement company. About 9 months later (and thousands of dollars to the debt settlement company) my wife was fired from her job after refusing the romantic advances of a superior. We were now without much of our income and all of our health insurance (which was why she was working int he first place).

Bancruptcy was the only option, and the credit card companies had been, as overtly as they legally could, pushing us toward that. They didn't want a trickle of payments, Bancruptcy meant an immediate writeoff and 20-30% of the value of the debt in tax reduction, which is the same as cash in hand.

It's easy to be judgmental when you aren't facing the same situation. Just today I discovered that a web site I'd written the core scripting for, scripting they couldn't function without, is making $20,000 to $50,000 a year off the work I was paid just a few hundred dollars for. I pull in maybe $1,000 or so a month on work others can get three, four or even five times as much, because I don't like cheating people. I just saw a company that sells Church Web site packages for $4,000 that include less that what I did for free for my previous church. I'd feel guilty charging a Church anything to build their website.

Tomorrow I face bancruptcy court and it tears me up that so many people think I'm the one that lacked faith, because rather than cheat people I charged what I felt was honest fees. Just look at how many churches use http://phpBible.org . I've received maybe $40 in donations in the three years it's been available.

I have a standing offer of a fairly large sum for one of my sites, but it remains the only place people with the same condition my children have can go and communicate with others. People are constantly reminding me that the site has saved lives because it's only there people have been able to find the information they needed, even when their doctors were clueless. But I know if I sold it it would only be a short time before it dwindled to nothing and its usefullness would be squandered. I can't bring myself to sell the safety of so many people.

So am I wrong for filing bancruptcy since I could have so easily and callously overcharged people all this time?

[Madeline]

It is very easy for me, if/when I am under no particular financial pressure, to tell someone else, if/when they are under severe financial pressure, not to declare bankruptcy whatever the consequences to them may be of following my dogmatic advice about their situational problem - just as it is easy for me to tell someone not to go to the doctor, not to get a lawyer, not to call the police, not to use any indirect means whatsoever because then you lack faith. I didn't write the new bankruptcy law, and, for what it is worth, I personally have some real problems with it. But that is not at all the point. If anyone think it's wrong to do, then do not do it. Trust God to provide alternative ways out of the fix. This may be a test, and no third party can make this determination for the person in question. This is up to Will and God to decide!

Love,
Madeline

[Madeline]

Btw, just want to make this crystal clear, that I am fully aware of God's infinite supply of His ability to provide for His children. God does provide, but that doesn't mean He always provides in the manner we want or at the time and place of our choosing. Sometimes we are being tested. Sometimes we are being disciplined. Sometimes we are just experiencing the consequences of life as we are living it (which may not be out and out sinful but still has financial consequences which are unexpected and unpleasant). We must not blame God; we need to trust God; judging things as a third party or judging things before the matter has played itself out are both dangerous propositions. Ideally, if I am sick, I pray to the Lord and He heals me. That does not mean that if I go to a doctor when I am in seriously ill health that I lack faith? Ideally, if I have a problem at work, I pray to the Lord and He delivers me. That does not mean that in an extreme circumstance if I am about to lose my livelihood through illegal actions against me that I am foreclosed by the fact that I am Christian from getting a lawyer and legal help. If I live in a bad neighborhood I put my faith in God to protect me. That does not mean I don't lock my doors, or that I would not call 911 if someone tried to break in. But in my observation and experience, the people who are so vociferously dogmatic about these issues are generally the first ones to avail themselves of all the professional and worldly help they can find when the shoe is on the other foot. But real life is not uncomplicated. We live in world populated by evil people (people, for example, who would swear they have dedicated their lives to healing you, then would charge you 10 million dollars to save your life and hound you to the ends of the earth when you can't pay). We live in a world controlled in large measure by the evil one. And we are far from perfect ourselves. Our understanding of the will of God for our personal lives is incomplete and faulty in most cases because in most cases in this lukewarm era in which we live we only ever think about God when we get into trouble. On top of that we are sinners - all of us. And worse sinners than we have to be, even if we are among the small cadre of believers who are definitely and conscientiously trying to grow spiritually and follow our Lord, helping others to do the same. This is a recipe for complications. God is always with us. God will always deliver us. But how and where and when are not always in our power to know up front. Therefore it would certainly be prudent for us to strive in matters of some question when it comes to things scripture is not dogmatic about to give other people at least as much "benefit of the doubt" as we would surely give ourselves. Enough said...I hope that this thread can be put to rest and leave it up to Will and God to make the decisions.

Love,
Madeline

[Anon]

Kitagrl,

No, I do not believe bankruptcy is ever an option for a Christian. As I already stated, most creditors will work with you and even accept pennies on the dollar as payment in full. Though bankruptcy is a legal option, I do not believe it is the right thing for a Christian as it tells the world that God is not able to provide.

off topic a little: I also don't believe in food stamps and government aid as it sends the same message.

5-7 years ago I would have adamantly said the same thing. I still believe it in many cases. However at this time I do not think I can say that in all cases. I have friends who have been on food stamps and even some friends who had to go bankrupt. Those decisions were not an "easy way out" and are trials in themselves. I just hope I never have to make that type of decision.

Good posting Trish.

[Pastorj]

I want Will and Danny to know that I do not want them to feel like I am being judgmental. Every individual must search the Scriptures for themselves and determine their course of action.

[bibletotingunslinger]

Bankruptcy can be a needed blessing for a Christian, I strongly considered it when I discovered my wife had run us into dept 1/2 Million$$$ with credit cards, I was told they would take my retirement so I decided just to cash it all in and sell the rental house and now we only owe $200,000, if I had taken Bankruptcy it would be good insurance that no credit cards would be sent for a while.
Credit is a BAD thing. any day, any time, Biblically speaking, as well as from experience.

Prov 21:9 well no, 19

[Danny Carlton]

I want Will and Danny to know that I do not want them to feel like I am being judgmental. Every individual must search the Scriptures for themselves and determine their course of action.

I'm not saying this out of anger' date=' but a bit of confusion. How were you [i']not being judgemental? We should judge, when appropriate. [bible]John 7:24[/bible] "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." If what you said is true, then stand behind it. If you now feel it is false, then say so. Vacillating with the something that sounds an awful lot like situational ethics, though, makes you sound like...well, a politician.

Even in your original statement, "I do not believe bankruptcy is ever an option for a Christian" you mixed a relativistic term "believe" with an absolute "ever". The world has worked hard to indoctrinate us with the concepts of moral relativism, which is evident in how often we caveat almost every moral statement with "I believe". When it comes to your salvation--yes, what you believe is important. But when it comes to morality, what you believe is completely irrelevant. The truth does not bend to anyone's belief. Morality is not a smorgasborg of "personal choices".

We are in the midst of a theological crisis because too much of our religious thinking is now corrupted with post modernist garbage--without us ever realizing it. We are the frog in the slowly heating pan, not caring to jump to safety because the heat is only increasing gradually. We accept empty platitudes and meaningless homilies as scriptural meat, and walk away from the table not realizing that we are dying of spiritual malnutrition.

The truth is, you might possibly be right about bankruptcy. I'm willing to listen to any sound arguments against it ever being an option for Christians, but I have little confidence in either blind assertions or ambiguous references to some "private interpritations" of scripture.

[Guest Guest]

The world has worked hard to indoctrinate us with the concepts of moral relativism, which is evident in how often we caveat almost every moral statement with "I believe". When it comes to your salvation--yes, what you believe is important. But when it comes to morality, what you believe is completely irrelevant. The truth does not bend to anyone's belief. Morality is not a smorgasborg of "personal choices".

Good preaching. There was a thread a little while back called "Corner on the Right" that fell into this common trap laid by Satan. The truth is that you better not just believe but also KNOW what is right.

Wil

[Trish]

I am praying that God will make the debt evaporate, or something. He can do it as He is God and Creator of the Universe.
I'm praying that He will do the very same for you. :thumb :thumb :thumb

God has done this before for matt's family. He was a preemie and in the hosp. a few months. His family paid little by little till one day (years later) the bills stopped comming. Upon investigation, the account was nowhere to be found.

I remember the same thing happening to my parents concerning one of the hosp. bill from one of my siblings births.

[pneu-engine]

God has done this before for matt's family. He was a preemie and in the hosp. a few months. His family paid little by little till one day (years later) the bills stopped comming. Upon investigation, the account was nowhere to be found.

I remember the same thing happening to my parents concerning one of the hosp. bill from one of my siblings births.

Trish,

I literally stand in awe of the mighty power of God, (and I must not neglect to mention His lovingkindness, mercy, grace and empathy to us) every time I read something like this, and in my 63+ years there have been many. Thank you for posting that. I remain convinced that God allows us to go thru things like this in our lives to bring us closer to Himself and to make us a showcase for His power and glory. I believe that a declaration of bankruptcy would short-circuit that.

Will,

Please know that I am praying for you for all that I can muster. :pray :pray :pray

I just know that God can and desires to work a very great miracle in your behalf. :thumb :clap:

[pneu-engine]

To Danny Carlton,

My heart goes out to you that you find yourself in this situation, but I stand by what I said before that I am against bankruptcy. I'm not going to waffle, slip, slide, or change my stance. I'm not going to tell you that you should have charged more, or that you should have handled your work differently, or that you should have legally protected your efforts such that for whatever a company makes then you should have a certain percentage of royalty ((((<--- that's what I would have done, but that's just me.)))), No, no, no. only you can know those things. I have tremendous respect for those like you that can write software. I build hardware, but I don't want to write the software.

My only other statement to you then is that I am praying for you for all that I am worth and that even in this late hour there might be some other way through this. :pray :pray :pray :pray

[Anon]

I don't know about the entire site but this article looked pretty good concerning bankruptcy and the Christian:

http://www.christiancourier.com/article ... bankruptcy

[Pastorj]

Danny,

I have given a basic Biblical basis for not declaring bankruptcy. As stated, I believe it puts a bad testimony on our Great God that he cannot provide for us.

There are basically two types of debt.
1. Unavoidable debt because of circumstances beyond our control (Health, loss of Job, etc)
2. Avoidable debt due to irresponsible spending.

Scripture is clear that we are to owe no man anything. That if we are in debt we are enslaved to the person we are in debt to. We need to understand that we are responsible as individuals for the debt that we create. If I go buy a car, I am obligated to pay for it. Simple principle. The problem with bankruptcy is that we buy that car and then say, "I don't have to pay for it." Whether our debts are avoidable or unavoidable, we have an obligation to pay off our debts unless the creditor forgives those debts. This might mean selling everything we have to pay off the debt. This may mean eating PB&J twice a day to pay off our debts. The debts though are our responsibility.

The wonderful thing about being a Christian is that we have a Heavenly Father who loves us. Romans tells us that "All things work together for Good". Philippians tells us that God will provide for all our needs. Matt 6 tells us that God will provide for our needs because we are more important to him than the birds or the flowers. Scripture says to "cast all of our cares upon him, for he careth for you". We are to take our burdens to him. There are numerous examples in the Bible of God providing for an individuals needs. Elijah was fed by ravens. He was then fed by a widow woman who was about to eat her last meal and then die. God provided for not only the preacher, but the woman who by faith gave her last meal away. We serve a great God who is in control of everything. Declaring Bankruptcy says that God can't handle your problems, so let's go to the courts and let them erase your debt.

I feel for those who are struggling with debt. I have worked with more than a dozen families who had significant debt to help them get out of it. Getting out of debt is possible. It will take a lot of hard work, sacrifice, and time. We must allow the Word of God to govern our lives completely. God's Word is sure and we need to trust him to get us through the difficult times in our life.

Danny,
I could post absolute statements on this board and remove the "I Believe" part. I choose to add those two words, not because Scripture is not clear, but because many people interpret Scripture differently. This forum has been through the years a fairly peaceable forum even though many of it's members have strong beliefs in certain areas. I am not their pastor, and it is not my responsibily or anyone elses on this board to force their opinions upon other people. We do our best to present our arguments in the best way possible. If you have a Scriptural argument against, go ahead and post it. If you don't understand something, feel free to ask for clarification from the poster you disagree.

[Pastorj]

I don't know about the entire site but this article looked pretty good concerning bankruptcy and the Christian:

http://www.christiancourier.com/article ... bankruptcy

It was a good article until the end. He makes the argument that Bankruptcy is not an option and then at the very end, he says that there may be certain circumstances where it is ok, but just don't abuse it. Of course he give no Scriptural basis for that option where he gives Scripture and Scriptural principles for everything else.