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Bankruptcy and the Christian


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I didn't know this thread was supposed to end up as a debate.... I think that it will be between Will and God as far as how this situation is handled.

God does tell us not to owe anything...however I guess Will could have just chosen to die instead of owing money. Those were his choices. So it will be up to God to let him know whether or not he wants him to go through bankruptcy (which is a trial in itself) or if God plans on sending cash, or an alternate way of going about this.

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Also, I hasten to add, that I am not giving advice to Will here because I honestly don't know what "the right thing to do" is in his particular situation. That is for him to decide. What I do know and what I am saying is that in each and every case, once we have concluded what it really is that God would have us to do, then there is really nothing else for it but to do that thing and leave the consequences in God's hands. That is really the only way to build faith, pass tests, and glorify God. None of us is perfect in this regard. Abraham had notable failures as well. But when we do pass one of these extreme tests by trusting God completely all the way to the end, it has marvelously wonderful results, for spiritual growth and for spiritual production as well.

And a word from a practical point of view. If Will is seriously contemplating bankruptcy, I would urge him to look into it carefully. As I understand it, the recent changes in the law of several years ago made several categories of bills exempt from being expunged, and medical bills was, I think, one of those categories. It seems to that, if true, it might not do him any good in his particular situation.

Love,
Madeline

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God does tell us not to owe anything...however I guess Will could have just chosen to die instead of owing money. Those were his choices. So it will be up to God to let him know whether or not he wants him to go through bankruptcy (which is a trial in itself) or if God plans on sending cash' date=' or an alternate way of going about this.[/quote']



:thumb :goodpost: couldn't have said it better.
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The Scriptural principle is that we are not to be in debt. I understand that there are circumstances that we cannot control that can cause a significant debt. We are to ask God to free us from that debt. As stated before though, the forgiveness of the debt can only come from the individual that we are indebted to. The law has made it possible for people to go around this, but this is not a Biblical position.

Who forgives our debt of Sin - Only God can
The parable dealing with debt - Only the Master could forgive the debt

Phil. 4:19 clearly teaches that we are to trust God, who is able to provide.
Matt. 6 tells us that we are more important than the birds and the flowers and God takes care of them.

Someone once said, "God owns the cattle on a thousand hills, ask him to sell a few for you." Whatever our need is, God can and does provide is we trust him completely.

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Will,

Due 15:1 and 31:10.

Our bankruptcy laws were actually Biblicaly based on these passages. While I won't presume to speak for God my impression from these passages indicate God recognizes that a man can find himself in debt through no fault of his own.

Also, re paying the person owed and saying the State can not forgive the debt -- the "creditor" can not operate a business unless they are licensed - by being licensed they agree to abide by the laws of the State they operate in - and by default agree to abide by any lawful ruling by a court of the State. I assure you all creditors are aware of the bankruptcy laws and by still acting as a creditor they have agreed to accept the court's ability to forgive the debt for them - that's why there are bankruptcy hearings!

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The Scriptural principle is that we are not to be in debt. I understand that there are circumstances that we cannot control that can cause a significant debt. We are to ask God to free us from that debt. As stated before though, the forgiveness of the debt can only come from the individual that we are indebted to. The law has made it possible for people to go around this, but this is not a Biblical position.

Who forgives our debt of Sin - Only God can
The parable dealing with debt - Only the Master could forgive the debt

Phil. 4:19 clearly teaches that we are to trust God, who is able to provide.
Matt. 6 tells us that we are more important than the birds and the flowers and God takes care of them.

Someone once said, "God owns the cattle on a thousand hills, ask him to sell a few for you." Whatever our need is, God can and does provide is we trust him completely.


So you do not believe that bankruptcy may be one way God may use to get someone out of debt? God does have several principles in the Bible as to how to deal with poor people who cannot possibly pay their debts.

I'm not saying God can't pay this, I'm just saying I think the subject is open for Will and God to decide.
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I agree that it is up to Will and God to decide. I also believe that there is valuable lesson here that some are not aware of, and I also believe that the key word here is TRUST as in (Proverbs. 3:5,6). It comes as no surprise this is the stuff of spiritual maturity and so not for everyone. I think the situation with Abraham would be a good example. Often God's testing of us occurs in ways we don't anticipate. It is not uncommon for believers to face problems which have no clear solution. Rather than becoming desperate, we should remember at such times that God's strength is made perfect in weakness. Unless we really are at "the end of our rope", how tough is the test? Doesn't it make sense that for us to really demonstrate that we trust God more than what our eyes can see, that this would need to be in a situation that for all the world to behold where there is no earthly solution? It is at precisely such times that God does His most miraculous works. Sometimes it seems that the Lord wants us to get to the place of trusting Him and obeying Him completely with aggressive faith that flies entirely in the face of the reality the world sees. Sometimes it seems God wants us to set our jaws and embrace the seemingly inevitable disaster with complete and illogical confidence that in spite of everything, He will deliver. At God's command, Abraham took his son Isaac up Mt. Moriah to sacrifice him. From a worldly standpoint, when God first told him to do it, all would seem lost. When he took the three day journey to the mountain and God did not rescind the order or bring about a deliverance, things with fleshly eyes looked even bleaker. And when he went up the mountain, tied Isaac to the altar, and raised up the knife to slay him, it was all over - except that at that very moment God did deliver him, sparing the boy. In fact, Abraham was prepared to go all the way down this road to the end, confident that even if Isaac did die, God could raise him from the dead (Heb.11:19). If we don't go down that road with Abraham all the way to the end, how can we really know what God will or won't do for us? In Abraham's case, and in all such situations, bailing out early through lack of faith only takes away any opportunity of trusting God in extreme circumstances. Any immature believer can "trust God" in something over which they have some measure of control where the stakes are not that high. But what about when there is no human solution and the stakes are life and death? That is when we find out what our faith is really made of.

Love,
Madeline

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Kitagrl,

No, I do not believe bankruptcy is ever an option for a Christian. As I already stated, most creditors will work with you and even accept pennies on the dollar as payment in full. Though bankruptcy is a legal option, I do not believe it is the right thing for a Christian as it tells the world that God is not able to provide.

off topic a little: I also don't believe in food stamps and government aid as it sends the same message.

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Will,

There have been some strong beliefs expressed in the comments on this thread but quite honestly until another has been where you are they can only offer suggestions and ultimately the choice must be yours.

None-the-less I offer some thoughts that may be an encouragement and I trust will not be considered as ?twisting scripture?. The thought and ideas of bankruptcy were not the result of some scheming attorney trying to figure out how to make an extra dollar but were actually the idea of national governments trying to ease the burden of hard times fostered upon their business people and citizenry. In the United States we have had several Federal Bankruptcy laws since the 1800?s that have been approved by congress and then eliminated or repealed after they accomplished what was intended. The most recent appeal of our bankruptcy laws was signed by George Bush in April of 2005 with the intent of making it more difficult for the consumer to file bankruptcy but not eliminating it. The idea is force the consumer to restructure his finances, sacrifice and pay what he owes.

Please keep in mind that bankruptcy laws are federal laws established by congress and not the courts. These laws are there for your protection and in my opinion there is not a transgression of biblical principle once you have made every effort to confront the debt and those who are owed. I can tell you that hospitals are not very kind or considerate when approached for payment plans (at least not in our area). The past two years my wife and I incurred nearly $40,000.00 in tests and surgeries and we did not find one doctor or hospital willing to work with us concerning reasonable (from my point of view) payments. This makes me consider that one of the posters perhaps hit the nail on the head concerning tax write offs that prove once again the doctors are merely using what the law offers.

The principles governing lending and buying entail some pretty complex laws but medical bills do not fall under the topic of borrowing and are not planned nor in most cases wanted by those who enter into the hospitals. That they are debt is not disputable but are they frivolous, uncaring and random acts of excessive indulgence? No they are not.

Now concerning the scriptures and what they say concerning debt. While the classic verse ?owe no man anything? has been used much I have seen no one use Leviticus chapter 25 wherein God laid down laws to govern personal debt and how to deal with those who were poor and could not pay what they owed.

Keep in mind that God never tells the debtor that if they use the system He established they have lack of faith for truly this was not a matter of faith but of ones ability to pay.

It is interesting that the method established by God to eliminate debt was a combination of personal items being sold, land being leased, homes (in the city being sold), debtor indentured to the lender (but governed) and finally Jubilee. This pretty much established the biblical principle of forgiveness of debt at least once in a person?s life and it also established the principle responsibility for debt. I would encourage you to read the chapter and do some study on the principles to be gleaned from it.

Our current bankruptcy laws are designed to make the debtor accountable for willful debt and in my opinion medical bills are not willful debt.

I trust this helps

orvals

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Kitagrl,

No, I do not believe bankruptcy is ever an option for a Christian. As I already stated, most creditors will work with you and even accept pennies on the dollar as payment in full. Though bankruptcy is a legal option, I do not believe it is the right thing for a Christian as it tells the world that God is not able to provide.

off topic a little: I also don't believe in food stamps and government aid as it sends the same message.


Thank you, pastorj. :clap::clap::clap::clap:

I can see this part of your thinking and mine are identical, and :amen::amen::amen::amen: for that.

I remain convinced that all of these socialistic procedures (bankruptcy, food-stamps, welfare in any and all forms, unemployment compensation for able-bodied men who simply refuse to work, etc.) are all part of a hard-hearted philosophy that cuts God out of an opportunity for Him to demonstrate His Glory and Power.

To Madeline:::::

I sincerely apologize if a previous post of mine caused you to squeeze your nose shut. I'm waaaaaaaaaaay too old-school for the modernist thinking that would sanction bankruptcy.
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If you sincerely apologise then water under the bridge. Now I am reluctant in saying this P.E and I'm sure you'll disagree because you're older than me and feel as if you're closer to God, but I feel that I must. Don't mean to sound disrespectul, but as old as you may be...I'm afraid that you do not understand how God's Glory and Power is truly manifested, and I pray that someday that you will realise how He truly operates. It is those who are naked, famished, crippled; who can still say "I love God with all my heart" who are truly blessed beyond measure. His thoughts and ways are higher than ours as the heavens are higher than the earth...

Love,
Madeline

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Please people have some compassion. We are talking about a life and death situation here not some nose job or facial lift. Will would probably be in heaven right now if he hadn't had the surgery. Who are we to tell him he should spend a lifetime paying it off. Have any of you donated to the fund Matt set up???? Maybe his answer is staring us in the face and we are to proud and selfish to see it. :2cents Will, I pray that this matter will be settled quickly and that this burden of worry will not cause your heart any more stress. :pray

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Please people have some compassion. We are talking about a life and death situation here not some nose job or facial lift. Will would probably be in heaven right now if he hadn't had the surgery. Who are we to tell him he should spend a lifetime paying it off. Have any of you donated to the fund Matt set up???? Maybe his answer is staring us in the face and we are to proud and selfish to see it. :2cents Will' date=' I pray that this matter will be settled quickly and that this burden of worry will not cause your heart any more stress. :pray[/quote']

I agree 10,000% with you, Trish, and is why I am praying that God will make the debt evaporate, or something. He can do it as He is God and Creator of the Universe.

I've read countless stories of this sort of thing in the past and every single time the situation was characterized very similar to Will's::::

***They were in great need

***The debt occurred thru no fault of their own. I.E. They had no other choice in the matter. Death was not a suitable choice.

***They trusted God completely and prayed without ceasing by pulling out all the stops in their fervency.

Will,

I know what God did for George Mueller, David Livingston, William Carey, Hezekiah in the book of Kings, and Isaiah, and many others. He (God) came thru in the hour of their very dire need. I'm praying that He will do the very same for you. :clap::clap: :thumb :thumb :thumb
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