Bankruptcy and the Christian

[Trish]

Its always darkest before the dawn reminded me of something.

Hospital bills are always daunting. We had a major one a few yrs back that we thought impossible to pay. We just paid bit by bit or so we thought. Then collection notices started comming???? We had more than one bill that we knew nothing about. I frantically called around and was able to get someone who told me about the "free bed" system this hospital had. It had to do with income guidlines and stuff. Anyway, b/c we qualified our debt was brought down to within a couple of hundred dollars. They didn't inform us of this untill we were in collections though. Maybe this is the case with your hospital too. Its worth a call to find out. Btw, we decided to try it again with another hospital bill and were rejected b/c it wasn't in collection yet. So we let it go till collection and called again and were rejected again b/c we had already applied for it on that bill. Go figure! :loll: You'll find an answer, don't worry about it. :wink

[Madeline]

The power of God and His ability to meet your needs is often met through the body of Christ. So, the real question is God's people knowing your need, why are they not stepping forward and helping you pay these bills you cannot pay?

1 John 3:17,18 "But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth."

There is no stain on you for having to file bankruptcy, but rather on God's people who are not stepping forward and helping you to pay these bills so you don't have this burden hanging over your head.

Galatians 6:2 "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ."

The law of Christ is to love one another and we are loving one another when we help bear one another's burdens. If Christians loved one another instead of always trying to find fault with one another, all Christians needs would be met, the world would observe this and would come to Christ. No shame on you for doing whatever you must do in accordance with the law of the land to survive, shame on the body of Christ for not coming forward in your time of need to bail you out. The stain is not on you, it is on the body of Christ for using false reasons to reject God's gifts through you despite this bankruptcy in your life. The message of the Gospel is not who we are but who Jesus is and His death and shed blood for our sins.

Love,
Madeline

[dwayner79]

Will,

What are they going to do if you are slow in paying it back? Take the valve out? I am not trying to be smart here, but tell them you cannot pay it and see if you can work out a more reasonable payment plan. Then send what you can. Hospital knows if you go Bankrupt, they get nothing. I got to imagine they would rather get 50 bucks a month from you then get nothing. Avoid bankruptcy if you can.

Now on to the question, bankruptcy is a tool. It has nothing to do with whether you pay the dept back or not. If you are concerned over paying it back and want to repay your dept, then still do so. I do not think there is any scriptural concern over using a legal tool to your advantage. Ripping someone off however is not right, and you should pay for the service they provided you (even at their inflated rates). At the same time, I would only pay the minimum required, so work toward getting them to lower the bill.

Just my thoughts.

[Pastorj]

I believe that filing for bankruptcy is wrong. Filing for bankruptcy says a couple of things.

1. Phil. 4:19 is not valid. (God promises to provide)
2. It is our debt and therefore we are obligated to pay that debt unless the individual who we are in debt to forgives that debt.

As to this situation.
1. Call the hospital and be open with them. Most hospitals will work with people who have no insurance.
2. Ask the hospital for a cash payoff amount. This would be how much they are willing to take as payment in full. My wife spent 5 days in ICU two years ago. The bill was around $100k and the insurance company paid 90% which meant we had a $10k bill. The hospital took $1000 as payment in full if I paid by cash or credit card. The usual number is about 10 cents on the dollar. If you owe $100k, they will probably take 10k. Get a loan to pay it off if you can. You can also offer them everything you have or can come up with as the payoff.

3. Realize that the debt is enslaving you and you must do everything that you can to pay off that debt or get it forgiven. (Yes, the court can forgive it, but they are not who you are indebted to).

We are praying for you.
Pastor J

[pneu-engine]

A most hearty AMEN, Trish, p-j. :clap:

[Madeline]

Is God able to meet Will's financial needs? Sure!

Phil. 4:19 states..."But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus."

His riches, not ours!

2 Corinthians 6:10 - As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

There's the poor and the indigent who are literally dying of hunger, and yet have the faith which can move mountains (James 2:5). Are we to imply that God did not somehow supply all their needs? IF so, then this is along the same lines of the health and wealth teachers who rip Phil. 4:19 out of context to disseminate their false teachings. God did not support them financially, therefore something must be out of sync concerning God's will in their life. Just because God may not provide us with the financial needs we "expect" from Him, does not necessarily mean that He will not supply us with our needs according to His riches. Unfortunately some Christians are unaware of God's methods and will for their lives. His thoughts are not our thoughts, neither are His ways ours!

Love,
Madeline

[Pastorj]

Madeline,

God most certainly does promise to provide for our needs. Unfortunately many people take God's provisions and use it for their wants and then expect God to provide more. I don't know these circumstances you speak of, but God is clear that he will provide for our needs 100% of the time. Maybe not in our timing, but always so that He gets the glory and the credit.

Pastor J

[pneu-engine]

Is God able to meet Will's financial needs? Sure!

Phil. 4:19 states..."But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus."

His riches, not ours!

2 Corinthians 6:10 - As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

There's the poor and the indigent who are literally dying of hunger, and yet have the faith which can move mountains (James 2:5). Are we to imply that God did not somehow supply all their needs? IF so, then this is along the same lines of the health and wealth teachers who rip Phil. 4:19 out of context to disseminate their false teachings. God did not support them financially, therefore something must be out of sync concerning God's will in their life. Just because God may not provide us with the financial needs we "expect" from Him, does not necessarily mean that He will not supply us with our needs according to His riches. Unfortunately some Christians are unaware of God's methods and will for their lives. His thoughts are not our thoughts, neither are His ways ours!

Love,
Madeline

This "epitaph" has so much error intermixed in amongst the truth that it's like trying to pick a few good spots out of a rotten apple, and who would want to do that??????????. :roll

[Madeline]

....so close and yet so far from the truth. :roll :roll

This "epitaph" has so much error intermixed in amongst the truth that it's like trying to pick a few good spots out of a rotten apple, and who would want to do that??????????. :roll

Phhheeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwww!!!!! *****Madeline holds her nose for P.E's stench***** (Stinks to high heaven). :gross: Must you enter into this discussion with such an attitude? You can teach and preach biblical truths, but you will never get your point across with such unchristlike attitude. Shame on you P.E....a man of your age displaying such behavior. :sad Apply what the bible teaches and be ye "doers" of the word and not "hearers" only. Btw, you haven't provided one shred of evidence to prove how I picked out a few good spots out of a "rotten apple." Hope you get something out of this. :smile

Love,
Madeline

[Pastor Matt]

Let's calm it down here folks.

We want others to see Christ in us.

[kevinmiller]

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with Madeline but I'm not sure what's so offensive about it either. Christian attitudes are definitely lacking here though...

[Madeline]

I apologise for any rude behavior on my part. I just wish that some of the older folks can set an example for us younger folks. :smile And I can honestly say that there are some folks here who are very polite...I just wish that everyone here can behave that way. :smug:

[Madeline]

Now back to the topic at hand. Now if we use Philippians 4:19 to say that a person should not declare bankruptcy because then they would not be acting in faith since they disbelieve God's promise to provide. Then, I would have to say that I don't necessarily accept such logic. I do not doubt God's ability to provide. But I also acknowledge that there are some circumstances in which believers find themselves destitute. There may be a variety of reasons for this, not all of which can be attributed to spiritual failure. For example, God used famine to bring Jacob and his sons down to Egypt where Israel could grow rapidly under the protection of Joseph's regime and become large enough to "inherit the land" several generations later. God allowed the devil to impoverish Job in order to demonstrate Job's faith and God's goodness and ability to turn any situation completely around. When it comes to the application of truth to questionable and complicated circumstances, as I always say, it is often only the person in question who, in consultation with his/her conscience and the ministry of the Spirit and in careful consideration of all that the Bible has to say on the subject and related issues, who has a chance of making a "right decision". Only God knows all the spiritual facts, and it is very dangerous for anyone - especially a third party - to assume that they have such things completely figured out (cf. Job 38-42).

It is at least arguable that in some severe cases, "bankruptcy" may be part of the provision that God has for the needs of the person in question. As I stated before. In Old Testament times, every fiftieth year was supposed to be a "year of Jubilee" (Lev.25:10) wherein all debts were forgiven - not out the goodness of the hearts of the creditors, but because this was commanded as part of the Law. Of course, through hard-heartedness this part of the Law (along with the Sabbath year) was apparently never put into practice and that failure was at least in part responsible for the 70 years of captivity (cf. Lev.26:34-35). In the ancient world including ancient Israel, there was, of course, no "bankruptcy". If a person could not pay off their debts, they were enslaved, often along with their entire family. Paul tells us very clearly in 1 Corinthians 7:23 not to become slaves (i.e., don't sell yourself into slavery for, e.g., some charitable purpose; cf. 1 Cor.13:3). From this we can certainly imply that no one should go into bankruptcy if they have a reasonable alternative.

Love,
Madeline

[kevinmiller]

Interesting thoughts Madeline. My initial reaction would be that we are to trust God. However, our ways are not God's ways and if I was in the same situation, who am I to say that I might not do the same thing. I think this is something that each person would have to pray about themselves and use Biblical discernment in deciding what is right or not right to do. This could be an opportunity for God to show His power, or it may be that He wants you to be free from it. Either way, God's grace is sufficient and He will no doubt lead in whichever direction He knows is best for your life.

[IM4given]

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.