Bankruptcy and the Christian

[Will]

Ok, this is something I've been having to think about since before my surgery. My dad has spoken to a couple of his financial guys about this matter, and I've talked to some people as well. The thing is, all this medical stuff, the hospital stay, the surgery, costs of drugs, etc is going to climb into the $250,000 range most likely. I don't make the kind of money to be able to pay that off anytime in the foreseeable future. I am unable to afford "real" insurance on my own, because of previous health problems. I've been told that after the heart surgery, I would probably have to pay upwards of $1200 a month for quality insurance. I don't make that kind of money either. Before the surgery itself, I'd probably have had to pay $800 a month for quality health insurance. In my state, it's virtually impossible for me to get on Medicaid. In order to get on Medicaid, I have to be declared "disabled" by the Social Security Administration. Possibly, I could move to TN and get on their Medicaid program, but I wouldn't be able to do that until next year at the earliest, because I'm out of commission from my job here. And I don't have the kind of job where I can just pick up and move without much problem. I'd have to save a significant amount of money and look for a job wherever I moved to prior to moving.

The financial guys my dad has spoken to have said that basically, what it comes down to, is the hospital is going to probably drive me into bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is something I've never considered before as a way of getting out of debt. Of course, you read about how the hospital charity program refused to consider me because of the minor health insurance I had, which wasn't much. I don't have much money in my account right now. I don't know how I'd ever be able to climb out of this pit I'm in. This would take the rest of my life to pay off. Literally. And if I ever got married and had children, they'd be out of luck if I died, because the hospital would come after all the assets I had in order to collect as much as they could. Even Dave Ramsey, the guy who says you should never go into bankruptcy, said I should declare bankruptcy(my sister called him up).

So I guess my question is, would it be wrong for me to declare bankruptcy? I know that it would look bad on credit applications. And I do desire to get in the ministry someday, and having declared bankruptcy may be a stumbling block for me getting into a ministry position. Am I wrong to consider this option? Would I be sinning in doing so?

I struggle with thinking about this. On the one hand, I'd love to be able to pay off this debt by the sweat of my brow. I'd love to be able to see the debt paid in full. But on the other hand, I realize that this is a rather unrealistic expectation on my part. Yes, my God can move this mountain, but what is His will? What would God want me to do? I just can't seem to escape the notion that bankruptcy may be my only option. I've never imagined that this type of thing could happen to me. I've never imagined that I could be put into a situation like this. Surely there is an answer God has for me. I just haven't found it yet.

Anyway, sorry for this ramble of mine. Pray for me.

[Anon]

:badday:

Bankruptcy only affects your credit for, I believe, seven years (well I guess it depends on the type)....so.... worst case scenerio would be that you would have it off the record by the time you reached my age, which is 32...which is not too old considering I'm about to give birth haha...so not ancient or anything.

Sounds like you just got caught in the "blind spot" of the system, unfortunately. I'd probably look into moving to TN for future health care but hey if Dave Ramsey says to declare bankruptcy, I don't see that there's any more to say....it can be prayed in, but you need to find out how God wants you to deal with this. Does God want you to declare bankruptcy or does He want you to pray in the money? Only you can find that out. As you pointed out you will have to care for a family someday so you'll want as much of it resolved as possible before that happens.

I really don't see you being totally married and deep into full time ministry much before seven years are up, especially if you don't have a girlfriend right now (I'm thinking, give it a few years to get married and a few more to be an assistant pastor somewhere or whatever) so by the time you are ready to be a pastor somewhere (if you feel you are called to that) it would all be behind you.

Obviously if God has called you into ministry He will provide the way to do so... its just up to you to find out which path He wants you to take.

BTW there is alot to read online....according to this site http://doney.net/faq_credit.htm if you had good credit before the bankruptcy and the bnkrpt was caused by extenuating circumstances (like yours) that you will have alot easier time building your credit back up than if the bnkrpt was caused by running up bills you can't pay.

[Madeline]

Well that is a corker. I personally think we need to be careful in giving advice about specific situations for two major reasons 1) it's all about free will; people need to learn to make their own decisions and take responsibility for them and not lean on other people as a crutch - it's very spiritually debilitating to get into this habit; 2) only the person in question can make the right application in such "difficult situations" because no matter how well informed a third party may think he/she is, there are always critically important details they don't know and the decision inevitably seems to turn on one of these. I'm always happy to do my best to explain what the Bible says about specific principles, but application of them to one's own life is the responsibility of the individual believer. I echo what has been said in the previous post, which was you need to find out how God wants you to deal with this situation. I'm 100% sure that God will see you through this ordeal, but it may take some time...weeks, months, and perhaps even years. Praying for you...

Love,
Madeline

[Anon]

I will say there is an example, although only a parable, of a debt being forgiven someone... I would say bankruptcy would be the legal way of getting a debt "forgiven" so thus not necessarily wrong in every case.

I definitely think its wrong if someone is just running bills up and trying to live above their means, and then declare it to get out from under their own carelessness, but this is a matter of basically life and death. Its one thing if the hospital would allow Will to make affordable payments for his lifetime (say $50/mo for his life) but I think he mentioned that its probably the hospital will require him to make such large payments that, unless God chooses to send the money, he would never be able to afford them.

It is a very complex issue and I know my beliefs about the medical system and finances are also complex and would be hard to explain, but I just feel Will has gotten caught in the blind spot and I really feel for the decision you have to make here. :sad

[JJJ4given]

My pastor's wife was in a similar situation with multiple surgeries on her hip. There was some type of state grant that they applied for(I believe) and it ended up paying for the whole thing. You might want to look into something of that sort. I can see what details I can find.

Also, most companies do not consider medical bill delinquency as strong your credit.

Also, bankruptcy stays on your credit report for ten years.

[Madeline]

A Chapter 13 bankruptcy remains on your credit report for 7 years, and Chapter 7 for 10 years.

Btw, I believe that in order to be endorsed and officially comissioned as a full time missionary or in ministry, you cannot be in debt. It just ain't happening. You must finance your own ministry meaning you must totally budget your money. People are not going to endorse someone who might become a liability. It interferes with the mission.

Love,
Madeline

[Anon]

A Chapter 13 bankruptcy remains on your credit report for 7 years, and Chapter 7 for 10 years.

Btw, I believe that in order to be endorsed and officially comissioned as a full time missionary or in ministry, you cannot be in debt. It just ain't happening. You must finance your own ministry meaning you must totally budget your money. People are not going to endorse someone who might become a liability. It interferes with the mission.

Love,
Madeline

Huh? That is absolutely not true Madeline.

[Trish]

I say go for the bankruptcy thing and get this stress out of your life, It can't be good for your health. As for a future church ministry somewhere, if they can't see through the circumstance then I wouldn't think you would be comfortable ministering there anyway. As was said before you haven't purposely not paid your bills or run up credit cards.

[Danny Carlton]

The reason businesses drive debtors into bancruptcy is that in our "Keynesian" economy, money in the hand is worth a whole lot more than money owed at no interest. By declaring bancruptcy what you owe the hospital and doctors (probably ten times the actual cost of what they provided if someone scrutinized their bills) they can write it off on their taxes and make as much as 20 to 30%. So a $100,000 debt on a service that should have cost $10,000 to $20,000 turns into $30,000 cash they don't have to pay the IRS. They get to make big bucks and pretend to be the good guys while families struggle to survive with no credit.

The real solution would be for Christians to unite itemize fraudulent hospital billing of fellow Christians, then pool their money to pay the actual bill and help their brother back on his feet. But we live in a fallen world, so that's not likely to happen.

John Keynes, BTW, who is the economist whose theories our current economy is based on, was both a homosexual and a Communist. Using such a system is a way of greasing the wheel for socialism and eventually communism. His theories were adopted when the government wnated more control over the economy. It is his theories that say "air money" (money backed by nothign more than confidence n the government) should be the basis of the money supply. That's why Nison (a great fan of Keynes) took us off the gold and silver standard.

[Madeline]

Huh? That is absolutely not true Madeline.

I'm not in a missionary field...just some things I have been told by some in the mission fields. I have been castigated many times for telling people "read scripture, study the Bible, listen to substantive teaching and learn, believe the truth you've learned, apply it to your life, and help other people do likewise" - but that is why we are here, and the free will element is the critical part.

[Will]

I'm not necessarily looking for "advice" on the situation. More along the lines of trying to figure out if there is any scripture I may have missed.

[HappyChristian]

Will, I know the debt is overwhelming right now...but I just wanted to give a couple of examples of God's provision. We had hospital bills from 4 hospitalizations (2 surgeries for me, and 2 hospital stays for our son) which came to a sizable amount of money. We were paying on it monthly for 2 years and so had some of it paid down before my son was hospitalized. After he got out, we really began praying, and God provided the entire amount. It was not quite $12,000 - not as much as yours, but God still provided.

We had some friends who were heading to the mission field. They had major medical bills ($40,000) due to the hubby's sickness and their youngest child's problems at birth. They began deputation, all the while praying that God would help them with their debt. God provided 100% before they left for the field.



Also, just a note re: missionaries and debt. We had at one time planned to go to Ireland, and we still had the debt from the hospital. The board we were going through taught that debt should be cleared up if at all possible, because it's not the responsibility of supporting churches to pay for debt accrued before deputation, that had nothing to do with the field. If the debt were not completely cleared up by the time the missionary was ready to leave for the field, then arrangements had to be made for the debt to be paid in a timely manner asap. Our preacher and my husband both felt that the debt needed to be gone completely so that it wasn't an unfair burden to the churches.

I don't know of any scripture that would say bancruptcy is wrong.

[Madeline]

I'm not necessarily looking for "advice" on the situation. More along the lines of trying to figure out if there is any scripture I may have missed.

Well, in all honesty...I'm not sure what you may have missed. As to my scriptural knowledge, I don't find one shred of biblical proof which would suggest that filing for bankruptcy in your situation would be considered sin. But from a biblical perspective, I know that God is more than capable of talking to us audibly and telling us in voluminous detail exactly what we should and shouldn't do and when and how and why. Strange He doesn't do this - and rarely ever has. In my view, that is largely because it is only in the crucible of life where we face questionable situations every day that our true heart and true spiritual status come out and are made clear. God could have stopped Balaam from coming to Balak, but instead gave him a lot of latitude to figure it out for himself. And, truth be told, Balaam knew he shouldn't go, but was determined to get the money regardless of what God thought about it - and we see the end of this behavior very clearly. Generally speaking, when we find ourselves in situations where we are very spiritually uncomfortable, it is because we know very well what we should or shouldn't do, but are reluctant to follow the Lord either because 1) we really want to do/not to do what we really know we should not/ should do, or 2) have put ourselves in a pickle by previous spiritual compromises to the point where doing the right thing now is very difficult indeed. Sorry for not being able to give you any financial pointers.

Love,
Madeline

[Madeline]

Btw, in the Old Testament, every fifty years God commanded a year of Jubilee (Lev. 25:8-34). In that year all debts were forgiven, Jewish slaves were set free, land sold to pay debts reverted back to its original owner without any further costs. In other words, everyone got a clean bill of health to start over. There is no shame in going into bankruptcy proceedings if ones livelihood cannot meet the costs. Our original laws, and bankruptcy laws, are grounded in the teachings of the Bible. You may later go into the ministry. What will your message from the Lord be? One of legalism or compassion? Being in the hospital and having surgery is not an irresponsible cost, it is a cost beyond your control.

Love,
Madeline

[pneu-engine]

....so close and yet so far from the truth. :roll :roll

Humanistic thinking always leaves God out of the picture. Whatever happened to praying without ceasing and prevailing upon God to open a door, a window, or just trusting Him completely.

Will,

I want you to know that I am fervently praying for you and your situation:::::

#1. That God will either make the debt evapoarte or grant you all the finances necessary, possibly from some unseen quarter.

#2. That you will come out of this with a heart rejoicing way beyond what you could ever have dreamed.

#3. It's just possible that God is drawing you close to Himself and wants to show His power to you in a verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry real way.

It's always darkest before the dawn.