John Piper

[Jerry]

OK' date=' now I'm confused. How could he believe in Calvinism and works salvation at the same time? Don't they totaly contradict?[/quote']

No. The fifth point of Tulip is the Perseverance of the saints, and many Calvinists teach that as the believer must continue to persevere in his salvation (ie. maintain it by his good works) in order to stay saved.

[anime4christ]

OK, so according to Calvinism, God chooses from the beginning who goes to heaven or hell, and then some of those chosen for heaven might end up in hell if they don't persevere?

[zealyouthguy]

No, that's wrong here is a good definition:

Perseverance of the saints

Also called the "preservation of the saints" or "eternal security," the fifth point teaches that, since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by human will or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return. This is slightly different from the "once saved, always saved" view prevalent in some evangelical churches in which, despite apostasy or unrepentant and habitual sin, the individual is truly saved if he or she had truly accepted Christ in the past; in traditional Calvinist teaching, apostasy by such a person may be proof that they never were saved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_points_of_Calvinism

and a ton of other sites to back it up: http://www.google.com/search?q=Persever ... =firefox-a



As an aside: The biggest difference between calvinism and biblical soteriology is simply Irresistible Grace. I don't believe that this is worthy of being called heretical. Arminianism IS heretical flat out because it denies salvation through God's grace without works.

There are many good brothers out there that are calvinists (some call themselves 3 point or 4 point, etc) the danger of calvinism comes when it comes in it's extreme form.

As far as Piper, he is a very intelligent man who seems to love God passionately but has built his passion for God (and his ministry) on wrong foundations and as such, should be avoided by young (in Christ) Christians. There are too many things to throw a young believer off in his teaching and theology.

My personal belief is that God works out all the details and that God didn't create ANYONE and destine them to be damned to hell, but that he did create them knowing they would reject his gift and end up in hell. I conversely believe that God created others who he knew would accept his gift and end up in heaven.

Rejecting and accepting aren't "works", no one goes to sleep one day lost and wakes up one day saved without making a decision to accept or reject Christs work on the cross.

[Jerry]

No, perseverance of the saints is not the same thing as preservation of the saints. It is not teaching that God keeps His own - otherwise there would be no problem with it. And yes, there are Calvinists today that do actually teach this, and some of them are people we have quoted/exposed on these boards. I will try to see if I can find quotes or articles by these writers to show this (but I propbably won't be able to do this today - my internet access at work is temporarily gone, and I have church right after).

[zealyouthguy]

http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html

Well, folks can go over and read Calvin's "Institutes" for themselves. There is enough wrong with Calvinism that there is no need to mischaracterize it


I would also suggest that everyone familiarize themselves with Charles Spurgeon and his belief of Calvinism... since he says plainly he was a Calvinist.

[heartstrings]

No, that's wrong here is a good definition:

Perseverance of the saints

Also called the "preservation of the saints" or "eternal security,"

Not the way John Piper teaches it.

the fifth point teaches that, since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by human will or anything else,

God's will is that everyone be saved. But God gave me a will to choose Him or reject Him. He also does not make anyone live right or serve Him after salvation. He may make them wish they had, but we still have a choice

This is slightly different from the "once saved, always saved" view prevalent in some evangelical churches in which, despite apostasy or unrepentant and habitual sin, the individual is truly saved if he or she had truly accepted Christ in the past

Sir, when a person is born from above, he/she can never be lost again. The instant the Holy Spirit indwells you, you are a son of God and God is your Father. The Bible plainly teaches this. The Bible also teaches that if a child of God continues in sin, he/she will be chastened or even killed. God chastens those that are His. If you can continue in sin, and God never corrects or chastens you, the Bible says you are illegitimate. An illegitimate child has no daddy. God was never your father. There is not need to "persevere" to make it in. The five wise virgins had the oil in their vessels, enough to last until the bridegroom came. If Jesus comes in your heart.... if God is your father if the Holy Ghost indwells you, you don't just have "oil in a lamp" you've got enough oil in your vessel to last no matter how long the bridegroom tarries. If you got the "real deal" like I did.

As an aside: The biggest difference between calvinism and biblical soteriology is simply Irresistible Grace.

The difference is the whole "tulip", sir.

I don't believe that this is worthy of being called heretical.

The whole thing is heretical.
Total Depravity Man is totally depraved and unable to save himself. That part is true. But the lie in Calvinist teaching is that man is so depraved that he has no will to choose. The Bible says "whosoever will, let him come...." It goes along with the next three lies.
Unconditional Election Basicly means that God chooses who will be saved and who will go to Hell. This is another lie of the devil.
Limited Atonement Basicly means that Jesus didn't die for everyone. This is a lie.
Irresistable Grace Teaches that sinner has no power or ability to resist the "invitation" or drawing of the Holy Ghost. This also is a lie.
Perseverance of the Saints If you read Piper's teaching on this, it seems he talks out of both sides of his mouth. One place he calls it "eternal security" and another, you find quotes like this...

There are many warnings in Scripture that those who do not hold fast to Christ can be lost in the end. John Piper

Read "perseverance of the saints" for yourself. The man seems to be talking in circles; God is not the author of confusion.
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibr ... rseverance

Arminianism IS heretical flat out because it denies salvation through God's grace without works.

That I will agree with wholeheartedly.

There are many good brothers out there that are calvinists (some call themselves 3 point or 4 point, etc) the danger of calvinism comes when it comes in it's extreme form.

Each and every one of the five points of Calvinism are lies of the devil. I don't know if I would associate too closely with someone who knowingly teaches any of these things.

As far as Piper, he is a very intelligent man who seems to love God passionately but has built his passion for God (and his ministry) on wrong foundations and as such, should be avoided by young (in Christ) Christians. There are too many things to throw a young believer off in his teaching and theology.

You know what the Word says...."there is a way that seemeth right....." There are wolves in sheep's clothing too. "My sheep know my voice...." the Bible says.

My personal belief is that God works out all the details and that God didn't create ANYONE and destine them to be damned to hell, but that he did create them knowing they would reject his gift and end up in hell. I conversely believe that God created others who he knew would accept his gift and end up in heaven.

God knows the end from the beginning. But there is no unrighteousness in Him. He gave us all a will, so if someone goes to Hell, it's his/her own fault.

Rejecting and accepting aren't "works", no one goes to sleep one day lost and wakes up one day saved without making a decision to accept or reject Christs work on the cross.

That's the wonderful thing about "believing".....it's by faith. No work involved. But it will change your whole life. You don't "do" anything to be saved. The Bible says "only believe". Realize you are a wicked sinner.....Repent and believe the Gospel.
John 3:16 For God so loved the World......

[Bro.Johnny Mac]

I have e-mailed an apology to you,but Im not sure if it got to you,it may be bouncing back to me.
I will make my apology to you in pblic as well since I was clearly wrong.
Ill just make my apology public,since my rudeness was public.

Please accept my humble apology.I was rude and quite frankly obnoxious.
I thought I was being made fun of and I got defensive,which as you rightly put it was paranoid to say the least.
No excuses,no reasons,I was just flat at wrong.Please accept my apology.

I would also like to apologize to the board members, if I brought any of you embarasment for my rudeness,please accept my apology.There are good people here and I dont want to give this forum a bad name beacause of my thoughtless actions.Once again I am sorry,

Bro.Johnny Mac

[Charbo]

Speaking just for me, apology accepted, the matter is a non-issue.

[zealyouthguy]

The difference is the whole "tulip", sir.

The whole thing is heretical.
Total Depravity Man is totally depraved and unable to save himself. That part is true. But the lie in Calvinist teaching is that man is so depraved that he has no will to choose. The Bible says "whosoever will, let him come...." It goes along with the next three lies.
Unconditional Election Basicly means that God chooses who will be saved and who will go to Hell. This is another lie of the devil.
Limited Atonement Basicly means that Jesus didn't die for everyone. This is a lie.
Irresistable Grace Teaches that sinner has no power or ability to resist the "invitation" or drawing of the Holy Ghost. This also is a lie.
Perseverance of the Saints If you read Piper's teaching on this, it seems he talks out of both sides of his mouth. One place he calls it "eternal security" and another, you find quotes like this...

Read "perseverance of the saints" for yourself. The man seems to be talking in circles; God is not the author of confusion.
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibr ... rseverance

A couple of things, because I don't really have the time or desire to answer your long post completely...

First, cherry picking what "some" people believe is intellectually dishonest. I am not a calvinist, but if you go over to sharper iron and ask them what perseverance of the saints means you will find the vast majority believe it as I posted it from the wikipedia site.
Second... almost every point of tulip hinges on irresistible grace... pure and simple.
Total Depravity does...
Unconditional Election does...
Limited atonement does... (if you follow it logically as presented by Calvin)
and obviously Irresistible Grace does.

I understand the desire to push perseverance as being a works based theology, because you wouldn't want to be accused of being a calvinist in any sense (and neither would I) but I don't think it's necessary.

If God's grace is irresistible, it makes it NECESSARY to have the rest of the tulip. If it's not, the petals fall off... so to speak.

[Jerry]

There are some well-known modern Calvinists who do teach perseverance as a work:

Perseverance of the saints

[zealyouthguy]

There are some well-known modern Calvinists who do teach perseverance as a work:

Perseverance of the saints

I don't doubt it, there are some well-known modern Fundamentalists that preach "easy-believism" also, but I wouldn't characterize that as a correct interpretation of Fundamentalists beliefs.

[heartstrings]

A couple of things, because I don't really have the time or desire to answer your long post completely...

First, cherry picking what "some" people believe is intellectually dishonest. I am not a calvinist, but if you go over to sharper iron and ask them what perseverance of the saints means you will find the vast majority believe it as I posted it from the wikipedia site.
Second... almost every point of tulip hinges on irresistible grace... pure and simple.
Total Depravity does...
Unconditional Election does...
Limited atonement does... (if you follow it logically as presented by Calvin)
and obviously Irresistible Grace does.

I understand the desire to push perseverance as being a works based theology, because you wouldn't want to be accused of being a calvinist in any sense (and neither would I) but I don't think it's necessary.

If God's grace is irresistible, it makes it NECESSARY to have the rest of the tulip. If it's not, the petals fall off... so to speak.

If you are referring to my insertion of quotes by John Piper on "perseverence", let me remind you that "John Piper" is the subject of this thread. I didn't know the term "perseverance of the saints" was in the Bible. I looked it up....It's not.

Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
What does it mean? Seems to me this verse is saying to constantly and diligently "persevere" in your prayer life(similar to "pray without ceasing"?) and to do it "in the Spirit". And when you do it, pray for ALL saints.


It certainly has nothing to do with the way Piper teaches it. If you read his page, and the quotes, you will see that his version of "perseverence" IS "works based". Furthermore, the definition of "perseverance" in your link, uses the term "the elect"...and we know what they mean by that.

I understand the desire to push perseverance as being a works based theology, because you wouldn't want to be accused of being a calvinist in any sense (and neither would I) but I don't think it's necessary.

I do think it's necessary to expose false doctrine. Right down to the very last petal.

[zealyouthguy]

I do think it's necessary to expose false doctrine. Right down to the very last petal.

By all means, expose false teachers and false doctrines, but be specific... if John Piper believes in works-based salvation expose HIM, but that doesn't mean it's what the vast majority of Calvinists believe.. as clearly stated previously.

[heartstrings]

By all means, expose false teachers and false doctrines, but be specific... if John Piper believes in works-based salvation expose HIM, but that doesn't mean it's what the vast majority of Calvinists believe.. as clearly stated previously.

Would you be so kind as to quote where I "clearly stated" that "the vast majority of Calvinists" believe that way?

I went back and re-read your Wikipedia quote, it does seem to be skeptical of "once saved, always saved".

Also called the "preservation of the saints" or "eternal security," the fifth point teaches that, since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by human will or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return. This is slightly different from the "once saved, always saved" view prevalent in some evangelical churches in which, despite apostasy or unrepentant and habitual sin, the individual is truly saved if he or she had truly accepted Christ in the past; in traditional Calvinist teaching, apostasy by such a person may be proof that they never were saved.

So the "vast majority" believe in "eternal security" but it's "slightly different" from "once saved always saved?" Something don't jive, bro....

[zealyouthguy]

Would you be so kind as to quote where I "clearly stated" that "the vast majority of Calvinists" believe that way?

I went back and re-read your Wikipedia quote, it does seem to be skeptical of "once saved, always saved".


So the "vast majority" believe in "eternal security" but it's "slightly different" from "once saved always saved?" Something don't jive, bro....

Read the whole sentence it's different than the "once saved, always saved" VIEW in SOME evangelical churches.

Those would be the easy believism churches that particular view of "once saved, always saved".

I believe that most of those who show absolutely no change in their life probably aren't saved either(not all but most) ... so where does that place me?