Water Boarding: Is it justified?

[John81]

What about stoning to death? I always felt that is a slow death.

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Stoning is not torture and it's generally not that slow as the stones are not little and the head is the main target.

Torture is not about death, it's about causing pain, suffering and trauma to someone for as long as possible or at least until you get something out of them.

Stoning is a God-commanded form of the death penalty. Torture is not.

[JerryNumbers]

Stoning is not torture and it's generally not that slow as the stones are not little and the head is the main target.

Torture is not about death, it's about causing pain, suffering and trauma to someone for as long as possible or at least until you get something out of them.

Stoning is a God-commanded form of the death penalty. Torture is not.

You need to do an experiment, take someone and about 10 of you stand a bit back from him and throw rocks at him and see how many times you will miss his head and perhaps even hit other parts of his body, but besides that you can hit someone in the head with a rock several times without killing them if the rock doesn't hit in the right spot.

Your kicking against pricks just as Paul was on this one, every person ever stoned did not die when the 1st rock hit them, those who didn't suffered much torture.

14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Acts 26:14 (KJV)

[John81]

It really doesn't matter how long or short a time it takes someone to die from being stoned for committing a capital offense. That's what God commanded as the form of death penalty.

This God commanded form of death was not to be carried out by angry mobs, but after due process determined one to be guilty and deserving of the death penalty.

This is not torture, it's a method of execution commanded by God to be carried out for certain crimes and after certain conditions were met.

Torture, just because it sometimes leads to death, is not a form of God commanded death penalty nor a legally sanctioned form of death penalty by the United States.

Torture and the death penalty are two separate issues.

[zealyouthguy]

They sure are different issues.

Death penalty is given to people who have been tried with the witness of 2 or 3 against them and found guilty.


Period.

You can only die once... you can be tortured over and over. It's a scary individual who can torture someone.

[justalex]

God raises Nations up and He tares them down. Is there an instance in the scriptures where God called out a Nation for the practice of torture? Is there an instance where God called judgment on a nation for going to war?

I think we tend to see our nations as having to conform to the standards we as Christians maintain. They don't and can't.
They've been given the responsibility of administering justice and judgment. We are to forgive. They are responsible for making war. We are to turn the other cheek. For Nations God seems to be most concerned with fairness in the administration of justice.

The battlefield is a place of horror and death. Torture is an effective means of gaining vital information. This information might save lives and shorten a conflict. It should be used for the good of the Nation. As a Christian I would only be concerned that the motive remained that of gathering information.

If your country has signed any treaties which limits its ability to protect American lives it should withdraw from those treaties.

[John81]

Torture isn't conducted by some abstract "government" but by people upon people. Nowhere in Scripture is the concept of torturing someone condoned. In fact, Scripture is clear that doing wrong for a "good reason" isn't what God desires.

There is no "fairness in the administration of justice" in torturing someone.

[justalex]

Torture isn't conducted by some abstract "government" but by people upon people. Nowhere in Scripture is the concept of torturing someone condoned. In fact' date=' Scripture is clear that doing wrong for a "good reason" isn't what God desires. [/quote']

The government is not abstract. I wish it was come tax time. The government is an institution that was established by God.
Apparently we have a habit of doing whatever seems right in our own eyes without it. Can you show me from scriptures where the State torturing someone to gather information is "doing wrong" ?



We are not talking about the administration of justice but, rather gaining information in a war situation.

A foreign combatant withholding vital information to the best interest of the state is a fair target.

[John81]

If torture is justified then we should not be upset and outraged when our own people are tortured, but we are. Why? Because we know torture is horrible and wrong.

Scripture does not give governments license to do as they please. Scripture is very clear that nations will be held accountable for their conduct.

[zealyouthguy]

I won't even get into a long dissertation on this... but.. God is pretty clear:

Hebrews 11:35 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:


Torturing was not a good and acceptable thing. It wasn't good when it happened to Christians and it wasn't good when it happened to anyone else.

David wasn't allowed to build the temple because he was a man of blood.

I take it you would have no problem torturing someone then right Justalex. You, personally.

Psalms 20:6 6 Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand.

Psalms 20:7 7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.



Luke 6:29-32 29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. 30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. 31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

I have to also assume Justalex that you are ok with American's having their heads cut off by the enemy?

[kevinmiller]

I won't even get into a long dissertation on this... but.. God is pretty clear:

Hebrews 11:35 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:


Torturing was not a good and acceptable thing. It wasn't good when it happened to Christians and it wasn't good when it happened to anyone else.

David wasn't allowed to build the temple because he was a man of blood.

I take it you would have no problem torturing someone then right Justalex. You, personally.

Psalms 20:6 6 Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand.

Psalms 20:7 7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.



Luke 6:29-32 29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. 30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. 31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

I have to also assume Justalex that you are ok with American's having their heads cut off by the enemy?

:goodpost:

[justalex]

I won't even get into a long dissertation on this... but.. God is pretty clear:

Hebrews 11:35 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:


Torturing was not a good and acceptable thing. It wasn't good when it happened to Christians and it wasn't good when it happened to anyone else.

None of your verses demostrate God's opinion of torture. This is the only one that even mentions it. The others address personal conduct which God did not intended for the State to operate under. Sure God doesn't like to see His children hurt but, God's children aren't withholding information important to a State's security.

I have to also assume Justalex that you are ok with American's having their heads cut off by the enemy?

Are you unable to understand the difference in the use of torture to gain information being withheld by a terrorist and torture for kicks or to spread fear. The one will save lives. The other degrades life.

[John81]

Are you unable to understand the difference in the use of torture to gain information being withheld by a terrorist and torture for kicks or to spread fear. The one will save lives. The other degrades life.

That's not true. Torture very often reaps false confessions, lies, and embelished 'truth' for the sake of trying to stop the torture.

The CIA and others agree that torture produces unreliable information. They state that any information gained by torture (though they claim they don't use torture themselves) is viewed as unreliable and the torture victim is considered to be making false statements. Because of this, the torture victime often is subjected to further torture in an attempt to determine whether or not their previous torture induced statements were true or not. No matter what the torture victim says, he's assumed to not be telling the truth or at least not the complete truth.

[justalex]

That's not true. Torture very often reaps false confessions, lies, and embelished 'truth' for the sake of trying to stop the torture.

The CIA and others agree that torture produces unreliable information. They state that any information gained by torture (though they claim they don't use torture themselves) is viewed as unreliable and the torture victim is considered to be making false statements. Because of this, the torture victime often is subjected to further torture in an attempt to determine whether or not their previous torture induced statements were true or not. No matter what the torture victim says, he's assumed to not be telling the truth or at least not the complete truth.

So your arguement is that because it isn't 100% it shouldn't be done? Obviously it has value as a source of information or else the CIA and others wouldn't use it. Using your own train of reasoning farmers shouldn't plant their crops because crops often are damaged or lost.

Perhaps you could tell me: When your Senator Maclean was tortured while a POW did he offer up lies or the truth ?

[John81]

Who is "Senator Maclean"? He isn't my senator.

And no, I don't contend that torture shouldn't be done because it doesn't produce usable results all the time.

I contend that torture shouldn't be used because it's wrong. It's wicked and evil and not something we should condone or be a part of.

If we proclaim torture is acceptable then we have no right to complain if our own people are captured and tortured. We do complain though because we know how wicked, evil and wrong it is.

[kevinmiller]

Who cares about the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of it? It's morally reprehensible and it seems like that should be apparent with just a conscious, forgetting about whether you can find a conclusive Bible verse on it.

Just one question, would you personally torture someone to gain information? And don't give me a quick 'yes' or 'no' answer, actually imagine yourself inflicting unimaginable pain and suffering on another human being. Imagine strapping a person to a board and sticking their head underwater until they start bleeding out their nose and eyes. Imagine holding that board under the water as they scream. Tell me, would you do it?