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Water Boarding: Is it justified?



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Hmmmmm, seems to me I remember God having Israel cut off the toes of some enemy kings...that sure was worse than waterboarding. It's awful hard to walk without toes, even after the excruciating pain is gone - I imagine daily remembering that those religious people cut off toes could do some damage to the psyche. After waterboarding, life can resume its normalcy...with maybe just a wee bit more knowledge on the part of the enemy that we ain't messing around!

Again, I say we need to untie the hands of those who are trying to protect us. Many who have responded have never been in war. It's really easy to be an armchair general...

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The problem here is all the rumors candidates put forth about our government that is not the truth, they do so to try and get in office. While they are doing this many Americas take them seriously and this causes many in America not to trust our government over nothing.

For the last several years they have been hammering at President Bush from every side saying these things that are not true.

Its sad, our country is in bad shape, but it will not be turned around, the only answer is Jesus Christ.

I for one am surprised that things are going as good as they are in Iraq with all the negative that is heard in this country from wanttobes in power towards our leaders who are in power and the way they are handling things.

I firmly believe there are some these days who want the office of president so bad that they would sacrifice our soldiers to get there, maybe even our country.

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From http://harpers.org/archive/2007/12/hbc-90001917:

This resurrects the process of official cruelty under the Stuart monarchs in seventeenth century England. Persons accused of state crimes very frequently were interrogated with the use of specific techniques, including the rack, the thumbscrew, and waterboarding. King James I personally described the process in The Kings Booke (1606). He would, on the advice of his officers, ?approve no new torture,? but he would certainly avail himself of the existing practices. In ascending order of severity they were: thumbscrews, the rack and waterboarding. That?s right. Waterboarding was considered the most severe of the official forms of torture. Worse than the rack and thumbscrews.


Torture is bad, folks.
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The question is: Are we willing to give up what we stand for to hopefully "win"? The "they torture" arguement doesn't float... They do a lot of things... I hope we don't hold them as our benchmark. After all there is a reason they are our enemies. There is a reason we "play by the rules". We don't want to give up either our liberty or our moral standards for what we "think" will lead to greater security.

BTW
The government likes to throw around the word "fundamentalist" quite freely, could be they use this type thing on us eventually... Always think where this type of thing could end up... It is just like the "insanity" laws they have been passing lately, a doctor declares you "insane" and you can lose all your rights. Think how this type of thing was used in soviet russia. Anyone feel like a trip to a "treatment hospital" to get "cured" of the "obvious" insanity of a literal belief in the bible? :cool

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hmmm, well... do we have faith in spies, CIA, government, or faith in God?

As far as God commanding the Israelites to cut off toes, which scripture are you specifically speaking of?

I am just wondering, because I see God said to kill the women, children, (even the babies) and animals of Israel's enemies. Are we to do the same now?

Are we commanded by God to be in Iraq?

There are some biblical leaps here that I am missing.

As far as toe and thumbs go... as far as I know God's command was to put the Canaanites to death, not cut off thumbs and toes.

I personally think that it's because of this type of thing:

2 Samuel 12:29-31 29 And David gathered all the people together, and went to Rabbah, and fought against it, and took it. 30 And he took their king's crown from off his head, the weight whereof was a talent of gold with the precious stones: and it was set on David's head. And he brought forth the spoil of the city in great abundance. 31 And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brickkiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned unto Jerusalem.

That, even though seen in the light of retaliation, may seem acceptable... kept David from building the temple.

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Great post Zeal!

I was planning to post something similar but got sidetracked.

What applied to Israel and dealing with some of her enemies does NOT apply to any other nation.

God specifically told Israel to wipe out (kill every man, woman and child) of the Canaanite tribes, but NOT others.

What about the concept of "doing unto others as we would want them to do unto us"?

How about the idea that we conduct ourselves towards others as gentlemen; not because they are gentlemen themselves, but because we are. On the same note, I would hope we have a better morality than do our enemies.

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hmmm, well... do we have faith in spies, CIA, government, or faith in God?

As far as God commanding the Israelites to cut off toes, which scripture are you specifically speaking of?

I am just wondering, because I see God said to kill the women, children, (even the babies) and animals of Israel's enemies. Are we to do the same now?

Are we commanded by God to be in Iraq?

There are some biblical leaps here that I am missing.

As far as toe and thumbs go... as far as I know God's command was to put the Canaanites to death, not cut off thumbs and toes.

I personally think that it's because of this type of thing:

2 Samuel 12:29-31 29 And David gathered all the people together, and went to Rabbah, and fought against it, and took it. 30 And he took their king's crown from off his head, the weight whereof was a talent of gold with the precious stones: and it was set on David's head. And he brought forth the spoil of the city in great abundance. 31 And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brickkiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned unto Jerusalem.

That, even though seen in the light of retaliation, may seem acceptable... kept David from building the temple.


This a good post Zyg. I was thinking about David the other day as I was reading some of the other posts as well. Our real problem is that those in charge in our nation are not seeking God's will when it comes to war. Even when God told Israel to wipe out the enemy--the Bible makes it clear God takes no pleasure in it. The fact that he wouldn't let David build the temple makes it even clearer. I don't think that means that God didn't approve of us going after Iraq, because God can even compel ungodly nations to do His will (I believe we are rapidly beginning to slide into this category), but in the end those nations are not blessed for it either unless they recognize God and give Him the glory.
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It should be pointed out that the millitary(as far as I know) are not accused of water borading.
From what I have seen its the CIA that are practicing this and not the soldiers.
It should also be pointed out that none of the people who were water boarded were soldiers either under Geneva convention rules.

I dont believe the US should use torture end of story.I personaly am against water boarding.Then again some politicians say that playing loud music,sleep deprivation and not giving them a good bed is torture.Do i agree with that? No.

Mabey we as a nation should list specific ways that our guys can get information,and come up with a list of what is and isnt torture.But we also know that politicians are the law makers and not many of them would have the guts to make these tough desicions.

I think that what is and isnt torture should be made into law,so there is no ambiguity about what is allowed and what isnt.

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The Bible does not justify torture at all... even within the Old Testament. Even in instances where people who sinned were punished, justice was done swiftly - death for those on the death row was done quickly as soon as the judgment was given.

Torture? I believe that it is a slow, brutal way of violence that reveals the sadistic nature of fallen Man.

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The Bible does not justify torture at all... even within the Old Testament. Even in instances where people who sinned were punished, justice was done swiftly - death for those on the death row was done quickly as soon as the judgment was given.

Torture? I believe that it is a slow, brutal way of violence that reveals the sadistic nature of fallen Man.


:amen:
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What about stoning to death? I always felt that is a slow death.


I have heard, though I have not studied out, that in Israel the perscribed method was to drop a large rock on the head, crushing the skull and then basically covered them with stones to make a point. Can't say 100% if that is right though. Of course they didn't always do it that way, when it was a mob at least, as can be seen by the story of Stephen.
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I've heard some say it was that way. But it just don't seem to fit. I think that comes from man trying to make it sound more humane, seems man is good at that.

Probably Phillip would rather have had that than what he got, his was a slow death, I feel that was the way they did it in the Old Testament times.

6 And David was greatly distressed; for the people spake of stoning him, because the soul of all the people was grieved, every man for his sons and for his daughters: but David encouraged himself in the LORD his God.
1 Sam 30:6 (KJV)

Sounds to me like they were ready to pick up rocks and throw them at David.

27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
Lev 20:27 (KJV)

It just don't fit there neither, for it says they will stone them with stones, no, dropping a large stone on someones head seems to be something made up by man.

14 Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.
Lev 24:14 (KJV)

16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.
Lev 24:16 (KJV)

Don't fit here either, for all the congregation shall stone him.

So I really feel we must accept that to be stoned to death could be a very slow death unless someone hit the person being stoned in the right place.

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