Are Denominations/Affiliations a Good Thing?

[Jerry]

Again, there is no such this as a non-denominational church, no matter how much you try to change the meaning of the word. If you go to a certain kind of Christian assembly, center, chapel, whatever, then it is a denomination.

[JAHinton]

Denomination or affiliations? They are not the same. You can not find denominations in the scripture. Denominations often have their hierarchy which is not scriptural. Affiliations can also be called fellowships. Fellowships do not exercise control over members of the fellowship. Denominations do.

[Anon]

Denominations are just a categorazation, especially among "Independent" churches, which most of us here are part of.

[kevinmiller]

Again' date=' there is no such this as a non-denominational church, no matter how much you try to change the meaning of the word. If you go to a certain kind of Christian assembly, center, chapel, whatever, then it is a denomination.[/quote']
How do you figure?

Oh I stand for a lot of things. It's just that I don't align myself with a specific group and I don't know that there is a denomination that I completely agree with. Yes, IFB's and IFB's alone come to preach at our church. lol That's because I attend an IFB church right now. I'm trying to get the family to switch to a local Bible church that I attend on special occasions when I have the chance. My mom's all for it but there are two other members in the family. :frog

[speerjp1]

Oh I stand for a lot of things. It's just that I don't align myself with a specific group and I don't know that there is a denomination that I completely agree with. Yes' date=' IFB's and IFB's alone come to preach at our church. lol That's because I attend an IFB church right now. I'm trying to get the family to switch to a local Bible church that I attend on special occasions when I have the chance. My mom's all for it but there are two other members in the family. :frog[/quote']

Just so you know now and don't get disappointed down the road, Bible churches are as denominational as IFB churches. :cooldude:

[Jerry]

You can not find denominations in the scripture.

Sorry, that is not true. You will find the word "sect" in the New Testament, and it means denomination. Pharisees and Sadducees were sects of the Jewish religion - Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism and is referred to as a sect in the book of Acts. No, there are not sects of Christianity mentioned within the NT, but now you know there are denominations in the Bible. Jesus never rebuked them for their denominational affiliation, but for their hypocrisy, their traditions, and their sins.

[Anon]

"Bible" churches are indeed a denomination!

[Jerry]

"Bible" churches are indeed a denomination!

No, c'mon, they aren't! Each one believes the same and the have the same general practices, but they are non-denominational... :Bleh

[Anon]

Come to think of it I"m non-denominational too 'cuz I hang out with Kevin and Dwayner on this discussion board. :Bleh :cool

[kevinmiller]

Come to think of it I"m non-denominational too 'cuz I hang out with Kevin and Dwayner on this discussion board. :Bleh :cool

Oh no! Must separate!!

I do know that Bible churches are denominational, though, never said they weren't.
I'm non-denominational but there aren't many non-denominational churches around, at least that I would attend. The Bible church is closer to what I believe and it's a little bit more like a family than our current one. I will probably go to denominational churches for a while, at least, into the future.

[Guest Guest]

Ok kevin, I will try to address the first two scriptures you mention but will leave the rest alone for now as this post is going to be long enough. :tum

First you bring up Romans 5:12

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another."

But lets look at the verse before it too.

"Romans 5:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:"

It would seem that the context is the local church after all right? Many members in one body, not all Christians in one body. Could say more, but for this verse I will leave it at that.

So now lets look at 1 Corinthians 12. You specifically mention verses 13 and 27 but really the whole chapter should be read to get a clear picture. Still, I can't post it here so I will start with verses 12-14.

" For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many."

The problem here is you are reading " baptized into one body" one way, and I read it another. You seem to be reading it as a theoretical "body" composed of all the saved if I understand you correctly. I on the other hand am reading it as the local body, or in other words, the local church. Without context either reading could be valid but fortunately the context is there. I am reading this passage as Paul giving an example of the unity and equality in the local church, and thus the examples of "bond or free" and "Jews or Gentiles" becoming one body. It is of interest to note that generally speaking there are usually three ways to join a local church today, by statement, by letter, or by baptism. The first is generally used when something happened to you or the church you attended in the past so that the old church is not of like faith with the church you are joining. The second method is used if you have moved away from your former church but still agree with them doctrinally, and the last is of course when a person gets saved and is baptised "into" the body.

Now lets look at what it would mean if "baptized into one body" meant a "body" of all believers. First off, it would imply baptism = salvation, and indeed, this is one verse catholics attempt to use to state that. On the other hand, if the "one body" was a particular local church it would merely be stating that is how most members in Pauls day joined the church. They got saved and were baptised into the local church. I know you recognize that baptism does not equal salvation so I will post no verses illustrating that. :Green

Let me give a simple and somewhat silly illustration about the different ways to read the same thing.

Suppose, hypothetically, that I told you that Myself, Bromatt, Jerry, Kitagrl, and matie-k ALL had ONE sandwich for lunch today. Now you COULD read that and come to the conclusion that we cut a single sandwich into five pieces and ate it BUT you would know that would not be logical. You know that there are thousands of miles between us, and you know that a single sandwich is not enough food for five people, you know that we live in different time zones, and so on. So in light of those facts you would more than likely read it as me saying each of us ate a single sandwich apiece for lunch today. It would be just as accurate a reading, and it is the only reading that would make sense in light of known facts.

That is the deal with this passage. The context is clearly referring to individuals in a local church, the book is addresed to a local church, and even verse twenty seven: " Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." indicates that Paul regards those he is addressing as a complete body of Christ not just a piece of it as they would be if he was speaking of a universal body. The gifts mentioned in the chapter describing the various gifts or "members" in the body are all gifts shown by individuals, not groups, which would not make sense if what he was speaking of was some universal "body" either. A universal "church" does not fit scripture.

In a nutshell, I think you are reading this verse like the first part of that silly illustration. :frog

[kevinmiller]

First you bring up Romans 5:12

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another."

But lets look at the verse before it too.

"Romans 5:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:"

It would seem that the context is the local church after all right? Many members in one body, not all Christians in one body. Could say more, but for this verse I will leave it at that.

Your explanation here really doesn't make any sense. I think it would've been better had you said more after all. lol
He uses the word "we" in that verse. Was Paul a part of their local church or wasn't he? No, he wasn't. Then why did he use "we?" Well, he explains that for us. Why? Because we, being many, are one body in Christ. We are all members one of another. Going into the following verse, we are all members of that same body, but we don't all have the same responsibilities as members of the Body of Christ.

" For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many."

The problem here is you are reading " baptized into one body" one way, and I read it another. You seem to be reading it as a theoretical "body" composed of all the saved if I understand you correctly. I on the other hand am reading it as the local body, or in other words, the local church. Without context either reading could be valid but fortunately the context is there. I am reading this passage as Paul giving an example of the unity and equality in the local church, and thus the examples of "bond or free" and "Jews or Gentiles" becoming one body. It is of interest to note that generally speaking there are usually three ways to join a local church today, by statement, by letter, or by baptism. The first is generally used when something happened to you or the church you attended in the past so that the old church is not of like faith with the church you are joining. The second method is used if you have moved away from your former church but still agree with them doctrinally, and the last is of course when a person gets saved and is baptised "into" the body.

Now lets look at what it would mean if "baptized into one body" meant a "body" of all believers. First off, it would imply baptism = salvation, and indeed, this is one verse catholics attempt to use to state that. On the other hand, if the "one body" was a particular local church it would merely be stating that is how most members in Pauls day joined the church. They got saved and were baptised into the local church. I know you recognize that baptism does not equal salvation so I will post no verses illustrating that. :Green

Actually, what I think you're misunderstanding is of what baptism it is talking. It is speaking of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. How can we possibly be baptized into one body? (He does use "we all" again) The only way that we can be ALL baptized into one body is by the baptism of the Holy Spirit when we are saved. Being baptized into the local body cannot be reconciled with Paul's using the term "we all" to refer to the Body of Christ.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You mention that there are three ways to join a church. In the Bible, I see one way of joining the Church, being regenerated by the Holy Ghost. Where is there a "transfer of letter" in the Bible? Or where is there any reference to formally "joining the church" in the New Testament? There isn't any that I know of.

In my response, I would like to include those other verses that I posted previously since I believe that they are also important to Church doctrine.

Ephesians 4:4-5
There is ONE body, and ONE Spirit, even as ye are called in ONE hope of your calling;
ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism.

It just doesn't get much clearer than that. There is one body. That's it, not many, not several, not even a few, ONE body. There is ONE Faith. There isn't the faith of the Baptists, the faith of the Presbyterians, the faith of the charismatics, etc. There is only one Faith, the Faith of Jesus Christ. One Baptism even reinforces that by saying that we are all baptized of one baptism, that of the Holy Ghost.

[JerryNumbers]

Oh no! Must separate!!

I do know that Bible churches are denominational, though, never said they weren't.
I'm non-denominational but there aren't many non-denominational churches around, at least that I would attend. The Bible church is closer to what I believe and it's a little bit more like a family than our current one. I will probably go to denominational churches for a while, at least, into the future.

Notice the part in bold letters. That is a major problem now days, we needs church to teach what the Bible says, not what people believe.

A friend of mines son told me, he was not attending church for he could not find one that teaches what he believes, your sounding just like him

You need to listen to Seth, he is showing you what the Bible teaches.

[kevinmiller]

Notice the part in bold letters. That is a major problem now days, we needs church to teach what the Bible says, not what people believe.

A friend of mines son told me, he was not attending church for he could not find one that teaches what he believes, your sounding just like him

You need to listen to Seth, he is showing you what the Bible teaches.

So...your church can agree with what you believe but mine can't? Hum, that's odd. It seems that if someone believes according to the Bible, they would want to find a church that agrees with what they believe. Actually, I think that Seth is showing me what Baptist's believe, not what the Bible teaches, though I do believe that he is sincere, I don't doubt him. I look forward to hearing his response, though. The Bible seems clear enough to me on the subject. :smile

[Guest Guest]

It is speaking of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I figured you would say that. I almost included a rebuttal before you said anything. :saint

"Acts 9:17-18 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized."

This happened some time after Paul met the Lord, so either Jesus sent him on his way unconverted, or salvation is different than the baptism of the the Holy Spirit.

Where is there a "transfer of letter" in the Bible?

"Romans 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which, is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:"

Actually, I think that Seth is showing me what Baptist's believe, not what the Bible teaches, though I do believe that he is sincere, I don't doubt him.

Of course your entitled to believe that, I understand you don't see it that way, but even so it is the truth of scripture. Many people have given you a word of warning in this area, and of course you can reject it if you choose, and I won't argue with you more at this point as it will only cause you to become more entrenched into your mistaken position. Deep set errors often take time to get rid of. So I will just ask you to pray about it over time and don't let what you "want" influnce what you accept as truth. And a final verse for you, and one that would do us all good to meditate on:

"Proverbs 29:1 He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy."


Don't be stiffnecked. :Green