My definition of Calvinism

[heartstrings]

My goodness.........Is this the kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting?

Look here fellas...

i Thessalonians 3:12-13
12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
13To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

WOuld Jesus command us to do something so high, holy and righteous that He wouldn't even do Himself?

LOVE is what it's all about, friends.
Love is the most powerful, most enduring, most righteous, most HOLY "thing" there is. God is LOVE...the Bible says.
God told us to love our neighbor as ourself, He told us to "abound in love...toward ALL men". Why would He tell us that if He Himself LIMITED who He would love?
Jesus is GOD friends. God LOVED the WORLD so much that he gave His only begotten Son to die.
He said he would DRAW ALL MEN to Himself.
He died for Cain, Pharaoh, the Canaanites, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, you and me...everybody.
He did not die for a select few.
Sinner friend, Jesus died for you too.
He LOVES you. He wants to do wonderful things in your life.
He CARES.
You just have to admit that you are a wicked, rotten sinner, deserving of Hell, and put your trust in Him to save you.
He will come into your heart and life and fill you with his Holy Spirit the very instant you do that.

[Disciple Maker]

You're using OT scripture (and commentary) to define a New Testament word? Why avoid the NT?

I do not avoid the NT. The point is that good exegesis interprets the NT from the OT' date=' not vice versus. This is one of the first principles of hermeneutics. Although the NT may [i']clarify what the OT teaches, it never contradicts what the OT teaches.

The true etymological definition of a word can only truly be determined by "discovering the meaning of the word inductively" (Exegetical Fallacies; D.A. Carson, Baker Bookhouse).

Why is this true? Because God has said,"For I am the LORD, I change not . . ." (Malachi 3:6).

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (James 1:17).

[speerjp1]

An easy solution would be

to simply dissassociate ourselves from folks who've proven through their writings and preaching that they are not very reliable when it comes to discerning what God's word is saying. Calvin proved that in his writings. Why do some insist on linking themselves with a man who actually had a hand in the persecution of folks, including some Christians? There are lots of other people Christians insist on lifting up as examples and spiritual leaders who have been proven wrong as well, so I'm not just talking about Calvin. :thumb

I do believe there are plenty of good Christian men and women (Christ, above all) throughout history and even in our time we would be better served to look toward in our desire for Godly examples or theological dissertations.

I would also recommend Dave Hunt's book What Love Is This? for a clear Biblical view of the teachings of calvinism.

Also, as long as I've been listening to or participating in the discussions about Calvinism, one argument [read:red herring] is used over and over and over again: non-calvinists just don't know what calvinists believe. That is a lie, so please stop insisting that we don't know what calvinists believe. We have read Calvin and his followers and found much lacking. It is not an argument to simply say we lack the ability to discern the meanings behind his teachings.

[Disciple Maker]

You all might find this article by Dr. Ron Comfort interesting:
The Fruits of Calvinism
http://www.ambassadors.edu/resources/Fruits_of_Calvinism.pdf

You can listen to the message here:
http://www.ambassadors.edu/resources/Fruits_of_Calvinism.mp3

[speerjp1]

Thanks for posting that sermon. It is the truth according to God's Word. :amen:

[John81]

John, so you believe that irresistible grace is taught in the Bible, that those who are called are offered irresistible grace from God which completely takes away their free will?

No, there is no such thing as irresistible grace taught in the Bible, and Ephesians 2:8-9 does not teach irresistible grace and neither does Romans 10:9.

I never said any of that. I simply complimented Madeline for the way she put her post together. There are many posts I like whether I agree with the entire post or not.

[John81]

And yet, all means all.

When the Bible says whosoever will, I believe it. And when it says chosen from the foundation of the world, I believe that too. They really do work together. :smile


[offtopic]Could you please start making use of paragraphs when you make lonnnnnng posts? :pray They would be so much easier to read.[/offtopic]

:amen:

[John81]

Also, as long as I've been listening to or participating in the discussions about Calvinism, one argument [read:red herring] is used over and over and over again: non-calvinists just don't know what calvinists believe. That is a lie, so please stop insisting that we don't know what calvinists believe. We have read Calvin and his followers and found much lacking. It is not an argument to simply say we lack the ability to discern the meanings behind his teachings.

In some cases, but not in all.

Not speaking of here (OB) specifically, but I've heard/read many proclaim things about Calvinism or some who are called Calvinist that are simply not true. A great many Christians do indeed get their information ONLY from a limited source and rarely do they check to see if what their source states is true or not.

There are those who do indeed know what Calvin wrote and have diligently compared that with Scripture so they do speak with first-hand knowledge, but they are rather few.

This is true of many topics, not just Calvinism.

I do agree however, if one is speaking from first hand knowledge about a topic, those who claim to be doing the same should be able to tell and not make claims a person doesn't know their topic. Of course, if such isn't the case, then they are right to bring this up.

[Danny Carlton]

...some people who are called Calvinist...

Before you can go any further, you need to exaplian why anything should be defined by "some who". Some who are called Fundamentalists say God hates all homosexuals and is punishing the soldiers in Iraq because America doesn't execute all homosexuals. Do you want to be defined by "some people who"?

[Danny Carlton]

You all might find this article by Dr. Ron Comfort interesting:
The Fruits of Calvinism
http://www.ambassadors.edu/resources/Fruits_of_Calvinism.pdf

You can listen to the message here:
http://www.ambassadors.edu/resources/Fruits_of_Calvinism.mp3

I only got a little way in, and saw so many horrible lies that I stopped.

Really, security of the believer was not even involved in Calvinism

Is this guy crazy or just not very bright. Security of the believer is one of the foundational points of Calvinism

When the Calvinist says he believes in total depravity, he believes in far more than what I have just stated. He means he believes in Total Inability. That necessitates that regeneration must precede faith.

An outright lie. I'm a Calvinist, and that's not what I mean. I know of few Calvinists that go to that extreme. He's taking the exception (hyper-Calvinism) and insisting it is the rule. That's disengenuous.

Augustine, who by the way was the founder of the Roman Catholic Church.

Again, where'd this guy get his degree, from a Cracker Jack Box?

Limited Atonement. That simply means that Jesus died only for the elect.

No, it doesn't, and again, he's taking the rare, extremist view and insisting it's what all Calvinists believe and teach.

Calvinism incriminates the nature of God. Calvinists talk about the Sovereignty of God. When they talk about the Sovereignty of God, they do not mean by that what we mean. They mean that God is the author of sin.

This was where I stopped. Why in the world would you guys want to use someone so off the wall to defend your point?

[Bakershalfdozen]

I wouldn't use those links for the very same reasons (and more) you cited, Danny. The Bible is sufficient.

[heartstrings]

Danny,
What does "total depravity" mean to you?
What about "limited atonement"?
or "irresistable grace"?

[Jerry]

Augustine, who by the way was the founder of the Roman Catholic Church.
Again, where'd this guy get his degree, from a Cracker Jack Box?

Actually, that is a very true statement - let's clarify it a little: Augustine was the FATHER of the Catholic church - he was the one who basically established their early doctrine, and he is the one Calvin got much of his theology from (as declared in many places in Calvin's writings).

Limited Atonement. That simply means that Jesus died only for the elect.
No, it doesn't, and again, he's taking the rare, extremist view and insisting it's what all Calvinists believe and teach.

That is what most mainstream Calvinists teach - not some rare or hyper Calvinist.

Calvinism incriminates the nature of God. Calvinists talk about the Sovereignty of God. When they talk about the Sovereignty of God, they do not mean by that what we mean. They mean that God is the author of sin.
This was where I stopped. Why in the world would you guys want to use someone so off the wall to defend your point?

Off the wall? No, I have read that myself by various Calvinists.

[John81]

Danny,
What does "total depravity" mean to you?
What about "limited atonement"?
or "irresistable grace"?

From Danny's original post:

Total Depravity. We are all sinners, and incapable of true righteousness, on our own. I can find no logical flaw in that argument.

Unconditional Election. Therefore were God to require any condition on salvation it would be impossible for us to achieve it.

Limited Atonement. Nonetheless, of those who are incapable of coming to God without His help, only some ultimately do. Which means the atonement God provided was not universal and has limits. (all of humanity are not automatically saved merely by virtue of the cross alone)

Irresistible Grace. It also is logical that if we did nothing to earn salvation, we would therefore have little power to resist that calling.

Perseverance of the Saints. And finally it is logical that if we did nothing to earn it, we would be unable to un-earn it.

[Jerry]

From Danny's original post:

Total Depravity. We are all sinners, and incapable of true righteousness, on our own. I can find no logical flaw in that argument.

Unconditional Election. Therefore were God to require any condition on salvation it would be impossible for us to achieve it.

Limited Atonement. Nonetheless, of those who are incapable of coming to God without His help, only some ultimately do. Which means the atonement God provided was not universal and has limits. (all of humanity are not automatically saved merely by virtue of the cross alone)

Irresistible Grace. It also is logical that if we did nothing to earn salvation, we would therefore have little power to resist that calling.

Perseverance of the Saints. And finally it is logical that if we did nothing to earn it, we would be unable to un-earn it.

These are not what Calvinism teaches.

Total depravity according to Calvinism is not about our lack of righteousness, but about being unable to respond to the Gospel without being regenerated by God (basically).

Unconditional election is not referring to no conditions for salvation - but that man has no will in the matter, God unconditionally makes him saved or lost.

Limited Atonement - Calvinists have said over and over that God only chose the elect, regardless of what Danny teaches about it.

Irresistible Grace - The Bible teaches that man can resist God's grace and call to salvation - but Calvinism teaches man cannot resist God's call to salvation.

Perseverance of the Saints - salvation dependant upon our holding on and persevering till the end, rather than God preserving us despite ourselves. Kept by God's power, not our own.