...as goes the father.....

[heartstrings]

I believe this man is a calvinist, but I think that's irrelevant in this context. Whenever I see these statements come up, I wonder which scripture it comes from. I was reminded of this verse. "Proverbs 14: 1 Every wise woman buildeth her house: but the foolish plucketh it down with her hands." That verse says, basically, that a woman has the power to build up her family and the power to destroy it. We need to get away from this unbiblical stuff about putting all of the responsibility and blame on one sex and forgetting the other. Paul didn't do that, neither did Peter or any of the others. Both Mom and Dad or either one, can either ruin their family or prosper it. It takes teamwork. What the Bible DOES say, is that the husband is the "head" and the wife is to "submit". But our feminist-powered world hates that so pastors and preachers apparently cave to it and the husband is reduced to a mere "leader" who has little or no authority but is still responsible for everything. 

Edited August 6 by heartstrings

[TheGloryLand]

As long as the man is always the husband, and the woman is always the wife, everything is in order. A woman is a she, and the man is a he. LGBTQX are lost and are not counted as married couples.

[BrotherTony]

4 hours ago, heartstrings said:

I believe this man is a calvinist, but I think that's irrelevant in this context. Whenever I see these statements come up, I wonder which scripture it comes from. I was reminded of this verse. "Proverbs 14: 1 Every wise woman buildeth her house: but the foolish plucketh it down with her hands." That verse says, basically, that a woman has the power to build up her family and the power to destroy it. We need to get away from this unbiblical stuff about putting all of the responsibility and blame on one sex and forgetting the other. Paul didn't do that, neither did Peter or any of the others. Both Mom and Dad or either one, can either ruin their family or prosper it. It takes teamwork. What the Bible DOES say, is that the husband is the "head" and the wife is to "submit". But our feminist-powered world hates that so pastors and preachers apparently cave to it and the husband is reduced to a mere "leader" who has little or no authority but is still responsible for everything. 

Yes, Voddie is a Calvinist, but even the Calvinists get things right at times. He's also a Southern Baptist. It's so true that the wife & mother hold much sway over the success and life of the family. The husband does indeed bear majority of the responsibility for how the family goes. That was why it was so important for the globalists to destroy the nuclear family. All evidence points to the families without a strong father/husband dynamic producing juvenile delinquents and women who have to rise to the challenges the family faces. 

[SureWord]

It takes two to tango but it was my mother who initiated the divorce and at the end of her life said she regretted it.

[heartstrings]

17 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

Yes, Voddie is a Calvinist, but even the Calvinists get things right at times. He's also a Southern Baptist. It's so true that the wife & mother hold much sway over the success and life of the family. The husband does indeed bear majority of the responsibility for how the family goes. That was why it was so important for the globalists to destroy the nuclear family. All evidence points to the families without a strong father/husband dynamic producing juvenile delinquents and women who have to rise to the challenges the family faces. 

Ok, where does the Bible say this? Suppose you love your wife "as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it" As Ephesians 5 says, and you work hard to support her and the kids, bringing them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, but your wife refuses to submit? Are you responsible for her actions? And if you supposedly bear the responsibility, then why does did God find it necessary to command wives to "submit to" "their own husbands" in no less than 4 verses in Ephesians 5? Unless someone can show me some Bible scripture saying that the husband bears the majority of responsibility, I still say the responsibility is equal.

Edited August 7 by heartstrings

[BrotherTony]

2 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

Ok, where does the Bible say this? Suppose you love your wife "as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it" As Ephesians 5 says, and you work hard to support her and the kids, bringing them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, but your wife refuses to submit? Are you responsible for her actions? And if you supposedly bear the responsibility, then why does did God find it necessary to command wives to "submit to" "their own husbands" in no less than 4 verses in Ephesians 5? Unless you can show me some Bible scripture saying that the husband bears the majority of responsibility, I still say the responsibility is equal.

The wife is still accountable for her own actions. You can't be obtuse enough to not understand that. There is individual accountability, husband, wife, children, etc , as well as corporate accountability (chain of authority). When God created man in the Garden of Eden and then created Eve as his help meet, that established a chain of authority. Man is told to love his wife as the weaker vessel. He's also told to bring up his children in the nurture and administration of the Lord, to discipline them, and not to cause them harm and cause to turn from the Lord. Man's told to cherish his wife as himself because she's part of his body (corporate), and that man shouldn't hate his body. Being the shepherd of this family unit he IS more accountable, his wife and children are still responsible for THEIR own actions. If a wife doesn't submit to Godly leadership in the Lord, she's responsible for her rebellion. He's responsible for trying to bring her back into the fold. 

[heartstrings]

17 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

The wife is still accountable for her own actions. You can't be obtuse enough to not understand that. There is individual accountability, husband, wife, children, etc , as well as corporate accountability (chain of authority). When God created man in the Garden of Eden and then created Eve as his help meet, that established a chain of authority. Man is told to love his wife as the weaker vessel. He's also told to bring up his children in the nurture and administration of the Lord, to discipline them, and not to cause them harm and cause to turn from the Lord. Man's told to cherish his wife as himself because she's part of his body (corporate), and that man shouldn't hate his body. Being the shepherd of this family unit he IS more accountable, his wife and children are still responsible for THEIR own actions. If a wife doesn't submit to Godly leadership in the Lord, she's responsible for her rebellion. He's responsible for trying to bring her back into the fold. 

 What Bible passage tells us that the husband is more accountable? And you say he is responsible for trying to bring his wife back into the fold? Because here is a scripture which tells the WIFE to do that very thing for the husband. 1Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

[BrotherTony]

12 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

 What Bible passage tells us that the husband is more accountable? And you say he is responsible for trying to bring his wife back into the fold? Because here is a scripture which tells the WIFE to do that very thing for the husband. 1Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

Let's go a bit further into Ephesians 5.... verses 25-30.  The exact wording of man being more responsible than woman is there, the principle is. This article explains it a lot more concisely than I can while on my phone. I have to say that if you are someone in ministry and are too obtuse to understand this from scripture it's no wonder many of our IFB churches and Christian families are in trouble. I don't believe you are that lacking in understanding. 

https://www.theraineys.org/post/what-does-the-bible-say-about-a-husband-s-role-and-responsibilities-in-marriage#:~:text=Paul says the same to,but it makes no difference

[heartstrings]

29 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

Let's go a bit further into Ephesians 5.... verses 25-30.  The exact wording of man being more responsible than woman is there, the principle is. This article explains it a lot more concisely than I can while on my phone. I have to say that if you are someone in ministry and are too obtuse to understand this from scripture it's no wonder many of our IFB churches and Christian families are in trouble. I don't believe you are that lacking in understanding. 

https://www.theraineys.org/post/what-does-the-bible-say-about-a-husband-s-role-and-responsibilities-in-marriage#:~:text=Paul says the same to,but it makes no difference

^{Yes, I already mentioned that. That Bible passage does not present the husband as "more responsible" and it does not call him a "leader". It calls him the "head". Neither does it tell him to "lord it over" the wife. He shouldn't have to because it tells her to "submit". The last verse of the chapter sums it up perfectly.....Ephesians 5:33} Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

 

[BrotherTony]

14 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

^{Yes, I already mentioned that. That Bible passage does not present the husband as "more responsible" and it does not call him a "leader". It calls him the "head"}

 

And the "head" is what? The leader....or has that escaped you? You're trying to play a game of semantics, and I'm not buying your reasoning or lack therof. . 

14 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

^.

 

 

^{Neither does it tell him to "lord it over" the wife. He shouldn't have to because it tells her to "submit". The last verse of the chapter sums it up perfectly.....Ephesians 5:33} Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

 

And where have I stated he should "lord over his wife."? You're throwing up straw man arguments. This is something I'm finding more and more from Christians to feign ignorance of principles and truths taught in the Bible. I have nowhere advocated lording over anyone. I've stated clearly that the man is to love his wife, as have you. So where's your problem in the comprehension here, @heartstrings? 

The Bible clearly states that Christ is the head of the man, and the man is the head of the wife. It doesn't negate the womans responsibility or accountability. and it doesn't apply more responsibility to the husband than God has placed upon the man. Every leader is held accountable for himself, and to a great degree for the actions of those under his authority. If you cannot understand that, I can't help you. If you're just trying to argue, then please, take it up with the Lord. There are enough argumentative "Christians" in my life right now. As a closing note, we ALL must appear before the judgement seat of Christ to answer for what we've done in regards to our stewardship. We all are accountable for our own actions. 

[heartstrings]

9 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

And the "head" is what? The leader....or has that escaped you? You're trying to play a game of semantics, and I'm not buying your reasoning or lack therof. . 

And where have I stated he should "lord over his wife."? You're throwing up straw man arguments. This is something I'm finding more and more from Christians to feign ignorance of principles and truths taught in the Bible. I have nowhere advocated lording over anyone. I've stated clearly that the man is to love his wife, as have you. So where's your problem in the comprehension here, @heartstrings? 

The Bible clearly states that Christ is the head of the man, and the man is the head of the wife. It doesn't negate the womans responsibility or accountability. and it doesn't apply more responsibility to the husband than God has placed upon the man. Every leader is held accountable for himself, and to a great degree for the actions of those under his authority. If you cannot understand that, I can't help you. If you're just trying to argue, then please, take it up with the Lord. There are enough argumentative "Christians" in my life right now. As a closing note, we ALL must appear before the judgement seat of Christ to answer for what we've done in regards to our stewardship. We all are accountable for our own actions. 

No sir, I'll just be frank with you. The "head" is the "boss", AKA the one in charge. You can "lead" all you want to, but on those rare and unfortunate occasions, when nobody wants to "follow", a "boss" has to put his foot down, so to speak: Not a pleasant thing in most respects. And what happens when the "head" puts his foot down? Well, if the wife isn't in a "submitting" mindset a the time, there's going to be backlash. These little articles imply that husbands are to just "love and lead" only and that the wife and kids are just waiting and anticipating to be "led". No they're not. Just like husbands occasionally fail at their responsibilities, wives do too. Otherwise, the command to "submit" wouldn't be in there. All I'm saying is, yes, preach the "responsibility" like the Bible does. Don't place it all on the husband, when the Bible doesn't.

The writer in your article/link mentioned the "lording it over" subject. I was addressing that. So, I reiterate, "lording it over" shouldn't be an issue if everyone is doing what they're supposed to.

[BrotherTony]

19 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

No sir, I'll just be frank with you. The "head" is the "boss", AKA the one in charge. You can "lead" all you want to, but on those rare and unfortunate occasions, when nobody wants to "follow", a "boss" has to put his foot down, so to speak: Not a pleasant thing in most respects. And what happens when the "head" puts his foot down? Well, if the wife isn't in a "submitting" mindset a the time, there's going to be backlash. These little articles imply that husbands are to just "love and lead" only and that the wife and kids are just waiting and anticipating to be "led". No they're not. Just like husbands occasionally fail at their responsibilities, wives do too. Otherwise, the command to "submit" wouldn't be in there. All I'm saying is, yes, preach the "responsibility" like the Bible does. Don't place it all on the husband, when the Bible doesn't.

The writer in your article/link mentioned the "lording it over" subject. I was addressing that. So, I reiterate, "lording it over" shouldn't be an issue if everyone is doing what they're supposed to.

Here you go again!!! Where in the world have I stated that it's**ALL** on the husband. Your dishonesty isn't appreciated. You also seem to be stuck on**lording it over** where I have nowhere stated a man should do so. It's clear that all you want to do is argue. I will not aquiess. Have a nice day, *brother.*

[TheGloryLand]

4 hours ago, heartstrings said:

No sir, I'll just be frank with you. The "head" is the "boss", AKA the one in charge. You can "lead" all you want to, but on those rare and unfortunate occasions, when nobody wants to "follow", a "boss" has to put his foot down, so to speak: Not a pleasant thing in most respects. And what happens when the "head" puts his foot down? Well, if the wife isn't in a "submitting" mindset a the time, there's going to be backlash. These little articles imply that husbands are to just "love and lead" only and that the wife and kids are just waiting and anticipating to be "led". No they're not. Just like husbands occasionally fail at their responsibilities, wives do too. Otherwise, the command to "submit" wouldn't be in there. All I'm saying is, yes, preach the "responsibility" like the Bible does. Don't place it all on the husband, when the Bible doesn't.

The writer in your article/link mentioned the "lording it over" subject. I was addressing that. So, I reiterate, "lording it over" shouldn't be an issue if everyone is doing what they're supposed to.

I think that the LGBTQX will like your replies to the husban being the servant. 

[heartstrings]

On 8/7/2024 at 12:11 PM, BrotherTony said:

Here you go again!!! Where in the world have I stated that it's**ALL** on the husband. Your dishonesty isn't appreciated. You also seem to be stuck on**lording it over** where I have nowhere stated a man should do so. It's clear that all you want to do is argue. I will not aquiess. Have a nice day, *brother.*

Quoting from my original post....

Quote

We need to get away from this unbiblical stuff about putting all of the responsibility and blame on one sex and forgetting the other.

Yes, I said "all" from the beginning and that wasn't directed at you. It was before you even entered the discussion. Maybe that wasn't the best choice of az word but I will stick with that statement because, as I see it, for someone to say (as Voddie Baucham has) that "as the father goes, so goes the family" is putting all the blame on the father. But I did not direct personal attacks on your character, such as accusing you of "dishonesty", 

[BrotherTony]

50 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

Quoting from my original post....

Yes, I said "all" from the beginning and that wasn't directed at you. It was before you even entered the discussion. Maybe that wasn't the best choice of az word but I will stick with that statement because, as I see it, for someone to say (as Voddie Baucham has) that "as the father goes, so goes the family" is putting all the blame on the father. But I did not direct personal attacks on your character, such as accusing you of "dishonesty", 

Then maybe you need to tone down your rhetoric when addressing an individual instead of a group. You directly quoted my post, so I will continue to take it as directed towards me in those posts, thus justifying my assessment.