ARE CHRISTIANS DRIVING CHURCH NUMBERS DOWN?

[Anon]

Off the subject a little but not much.

One thing I don't understand. You can travel to some cities like Pensacola, FL or Lynchburg, VA and find pretty decent churches all over the place. You can go to some parts of Waynesboro, VA and find three churches in a row right on the same strecth of road. All these pastors will say that God told them to start a church there but what about places like Rome or Syracuse, NY, or really any city in the Northeast. You can drive in a hundred mile radius from Syracuse, NY and find maybe 2 or 3 bible believing churches. Why doesn't God call any of these preachers to go up there? Why have another IFB church planted in a city that already has 200 of them for a population of 75,000 when I can find you a city with only 1 church for a population of 200,000. I'm not saying that God didn't call these pastors to plant another church in that area but it would seem that all you'd be doing is stealing members from another church when you have plenty of souls to reach in another area.

I do not understand it either.

I do know God called us here where there ARE several IFB churches in a small area. I used to question it all the time. However in our area there are over one million people and since the three IFB churches are running no more than 800 collectively, we have alot more people to reach! And its not our fault if people church hop. Our church has been around since the late 1940's and it would be a pity to close down what others began. Not sure when the other churches started. Actually though I think our church did not start as independent fundamental, but evolved into it.

There are many things God does that we do not understand in our human minds. Maybe some areas have rejected God. Maybe God has called people to go and they have refused. We should be glad for those who have answered the call wherever they may be. I have a burden for out west, where there are so few churches. God has not called us out west though. He has other plans!

[John81]

We can rest assured that if God calls men to start churches in some areas and not in others He has a very good (and perfect) reason for this. As Suzy mentioned, in some areas where there are no good churches it could be the people have rejected God to the point where he has left them to their own devices. It could be some were called but failed to go. Or, there could be other reasons, such as God desiring that we (Christians) get busy with evangelism in our own nation.

Why is it some churches will donate money to several foreign missions yet won't send forth a mission team of their own to an area of need right here in their own country? Why do we Christians seem to be forfeiting the battle in our own back yards?

As for some areas having many good churches, I do believe that's a blessing. If those churches are truly good ones and God has not called any of them to unite, then God has a purpose for each church. Smaller churches are much more condusive to true fellowship than are large churches and especially mega-churches. God has a plan for each of His churches; we need to be diligent in seeking His will in this matter.

[Anon]

We try to follow the great commission by supporting both home and overseas missions. We support several USA church planters and one US missions help ministry as well as many foreign missionaries.

If we were large enough we'd love to of course branch out to start a new church but we have to fill our own pews first. haha. Its a tall enough order!

[John81]

We try to follow the great commission by supporting both home and overseas missions. We support several USA church planters and one US missions help ministry as well as many foreign missionaries.

If we were large enough we'd love to of course branch out to start a new church but we have to fill our own pews first. haha. Its a tall enough order!

It sounds as if your church is doing what it can. Even as "small" as what you are doing may seem to some, imagine if all churches were doing the same thing. The overall impact would be very large indeed.

Our church is small and not able to do "large" things. I'm not sure how our church got involved in this, but we support some missionaries in California that evangelize to the large Japanese population in one of the cities (forgot which city). We also help support an area ministry which reaches out to needy pregnant women and also works to provide alternatives to abortion while spreading the pro-life message and sharing the Gospel. We also send a youth mission team out each year who go into a poor area and provides work to help fix up homes and the Gospel is shared with those they help as well as others in the area. Our church averages a little over 200 per week so we are not a big church.

Sadly though, there are many who will volunteer for a foreign mission trip but wouldn't even consider a domestic one. Even larger are the number of church folk who would be willing to donate a few bucks to a mission program in Africa or Asia but wouldn't be willing to donate for domestic help; especially if some of their time was asked of them as well.

Of course, we must never forget that America has turned her back on God and is diving head first into wickedness. The Old Testament is filled with examples of God's prophets taking the Word to the rebelling people and how the leaders and people in general tended to reject the call to repentence and often attacked the prophets and the true followers of God. America is reaping what she has sown. Now more than ever true Christians need to be assemblying together for edification and getting serious about their personal growth in Christ and being about the work of the Lord.

[Anon]

It is hard to get churches to understand the importance of home missions...they figure pastors here can just "get a job"...and while that's very true, the church will grow VERY slow if at all, while the pastor works hard to support and feed his own family.

The best way to start a church though is to break off a small group from an established one to go out and start a new one, so you have faithful workers and helpers to start out with.

[bzmomo7]

England, was mentioned above. The nation that sent us Wesley and the preaching of Spurgeon. I heard last night there is about a 3% Christian population in England.

The answer for this was, a generation had failed to pass on the gospel. Further, that the generation past and my own generation failed in some basic duties to Christ to carry the gospel to the next generation.

My own answer for Europe and America would echo much of what was said above. There is a lack of power in the Christian community. It may be there is some individual true reliance on God's power personally, I even question this but, collectively as the church of Christ, we are weak as if defeated. I've heard from this board enough Gospel and fundamental truth to blast the devil out of America but, it stays here on this board.

Where is the LOUD call or out cry to fundamental Christianity in the midst of all that is occurring in the world. Listen closely friends, it is silence.

Do all of you have IFB famiy members? You know, we have a very mixed extended family......some are totally unsaved living in sin, some are descent people, but unsaved, some go by the name "Christian" but whose lives or testimony show they likely are not, and then there are those who are saved with a little fruit that go to other churches who have errant doctrine and/or are liberal in their teaching--at any rate, most definitely not IFB. No other family member of ours is IFB.......none are nearly as conservative either. I do not mean for this to be an excuse for your comment above (as there is no acceptable one) but I will tell you why I have often chosen to be silent, especially to those family members that appear saved, but have a completely more liberal view of Chrisianity. It is because they are so intolerant of our following what we believe would please the Lord.....even more intolerant than unsaved family members are!! I can't think of a way to make my saved sil more hopping mad than to insinuate that the reason that I choose to do or not do something (which is different from how she does it) is because I think God cares about how we live our lives beyond the 10 commandments. And of course, even those can be muddied up real good, because what I would call a "lie" another might say was "fib" or a "half-truth". We are so in that time that the Bible says people will not put up with sound doctrine and not only that, but they will not put up with righteous living in those who are trying to.

[John81]

Do all of you have IFB famiy members? You know, we have a very mixed extended family......some are totally unsaved living in sin, some are descent people, but unsaved, some go by the name "Christian" but whose lives or testimony show they likely are not, and then there are those who are saved with a little fruit that go to other churches who have errant doctrine and/or are liberal in their teaching--at any rate, most definitely not IFB. No other family member of ours is IFB.......none are nearly as conservative either. I do not mean for this to be an excuse for your comment above (as there is no acceptable one) but I will tell you why I have often chosen to be silent, especially to those family members that appear saved, but have a completely more liberal view of Chrisianity. It is because they are so intolerant of our following what we believe would please the Lord.....even more intolerant than unsaved family members are!! I can't think of a way to make my saved sil more hopping mad than to insinuate that the reason that I choose to do or not do something (which is different from how she does it) is because I think God cares about how we live our lives beyond the 10 commandments. And of course, even those can be muddied up real good, because what I would call a "lie" another might say was "fib" or a "half-truth". We are so in that time that the Bible says people will not put up with sound doctrine and not only that, but they will not put up with righteous living in those who are trying to.

The vast majority of my family is unsaved, but some think they are Christians anyway. The hardest people to talk with about Christians matters are often those who think they are Christians. Naturally, these folks don't really know the Bible and they live for self rather than Christ. They tend to set their own standards of right or wrong, though they claim it's based on the Bible, and they most often look at those who take the whole Bible seriously and actually attempt to live by the whole counsel of God as being crazies or something akin to a cultist.

I've had family that claims to be Christian tell me I shouldn't take the Bible so literally, that we can't be expected to live by everything in the Bible, the Bible isn't all for us today, I need to be more realistic, etc.

The reality is, they have basically closed their minds and refuse to listen to anything that goes against what they already think...especially if it's coming from me.

Very sad, but that's the way it is.

[bzmomo7]

The vast majority of my family is unsaved, but some think they are Christians anyway. The hardest people to talk with about Christians matters are often those who think they are Christians. Naturally, these folks don't really know the Bible and they live for self rather than Christ. They tend to set their own standards of right or wrong, though they claim it's based on the Bible, and they most often look at those who take the whole Bible seriously and actually attempt to live by the whole counsel of God as being crazies or something akin to a cultist.

I've had family that claims to be Christian tell me I shouldn't take the Bible so literally, that we can't be expected to live by everything in the Bible, the Bible isn't all for us today, I need to be more realistic, etc.

The reality is, they have basically closed their minds and refuse to listen to anything that goes against what they already think...especially if it's coming from me.

Very sad, but that's the way it is.

Yes, it seems that there is such a wide gulf between us and the world that it is easy for them to think of IFB as a cult. That is so scary. If they had only realized how far our nation/world has fallen! We probably have more in common morality wise with muslims.

[trc123]

Yes' date=' it seems that there is such a wide gulf between us and the world that it is easy for them to think of IFB as a cult. That is so scary. If they had only realized how far our nation/world has fallen! We probably have more in common morality wise with muslims.[/quote']

Fortunately, one is not saved by morality!

[bzmomo7]

Yes,trc, I know we're are not saved by works; the point is our nation's faith, as a whole, is dead......there are many here who say they know Him, but they do not demonstrate so by their actions.

[trc123]

Understood.

[trc123]

"But the question arises as to what makes the Christian framework unique. Here we see the second cardinal difference between the Judeo-Christian worldview and the others. It is simply this: no amount of moral capacity can get us back into a right relationship with God.

The Christian faith, simply stated, reminds us that our fundamental problem is not moral; rather, our fundamental problem is spiritual. It is not just that we are immoral, but that a moral life alone cannot bridge what separates us from God. Herein lies the cardinal difference between the moralizing religions and Jesus' offer to us. Jesus does not offer to make bad people good but to make dead people alive."

Ravi Zacharias - The Grand Weaver

[heartstrings]

Since I was saved 23 years ago, I have seen people leave for many reasons; sometimes, it was because they refused to take the preaching and didn't want to live right. Other times, it was because of the way they were treated by someone in the church. If we could just forget OURSELVES and love other people, love God, that's what it will take to make the difference. it will take US being filled with the Spirit of God. The Holy Ghost is God almighty and He is pure love. I don't know about you but when I witnessed a Bible preacher, EMPTIED OF HIMSELF and FULL of the Holy Ghost, preaching the word of God....right then and there was the very presence of God. Jesus was telling me "I love you". It took the POWER of God to save me. Nothing else would do it. We have to empty ourselves of SELF and let Jesus, through us, tell other people "I love you". I've failed in this many times.

These people forgot about themselves........were filled with the Spirit......They not only shared the Word of God, but they proved the REALITY of it. WOW!!
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

[Revelation3:20]

It is nothing to be discouraged about. The work of believers is to glorify God and follow him where ever he leads. Nothing more. Christ is the Lord of the harvest, Christ builds his churches, and the Holy Spirit convinces men of sin. All we as witnesses do is affirm the testimony of another, and the results of that are not our problem. If they do not hear us they are not rejecting us they are rejecting the testimony of God. John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Our concern should not be who is listening to us but rather are we listening to the Lord and loving and following him with all our heart, soul, strength, and mind. God is faithful and he will not leave himself without a witness in the world. In the days of Noah(which days Christ likened to the time when he returns) Noah gave witness for God for over a hundred years without seeing any results. I dare say we have not reached that point of utter rejection yet.

[John81]

One thing that really tells a lot about many professing Christians today it the number who love to boast that their pastor "doesn't act like a pastor".

It seems to be popular today for professing Christians to take delight in having a pastor who "acts like a regular person" (meaning, he's more worldly rather than holy).

Many modern professing Christians love to talk about their church...they talk about the fun and games for the youth, the special entertainment and events, their fancy video and sound system.... What's missing is any talk of biblical preaching, souls being won to Christ, people growing in Christlikeness, true fellowship and worship.

The biggest, fanciest church in our town is mostly a social club. :sad