Holy Spirit baptism

[MikeWatson1]

22 hours ago, Jerry said:

Hm, please show where the Bible teaches someone was baptized by the Holy Spirit AND fire in the book of Acts. John the Baptist indicated that being baptized by fire was eternal judgment (unless I am misunderstanding these passages). No one can be baptized by both of these. All true believers are baptized by the Holy Spirit; whereas all who die lost are in effect baptized by fire.

Luke 3:16-17 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Well, thank you for the reply Jerry.  What I'm looking at is when the disciples were gathered at Jerusalem and the sound of a rushing wind from the Holy Spirit came in amongst them..

(Act 1:4)  And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
(Act 1:5)  For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
 

So the disciples waited for this baptism with the Holy Ghost.. and then fulfilled here:

(Act 2:1)  And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
(Act 2:2)  And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
(Act 2:3)  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
(Act 2:4)  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
 

 

 

 

[bluewater]

If water baptism is into a local Church, what happens when someone moves and joins another Church? Is he baptized into the new Church by a transfer letter?

I understand water baptism to be a public identification with Jesus Christ, and secondarily by default with whatever local Church baptizes him.

[BrotherTony]

4 minutes ago, bluewater said:

If water baptism is into a local Church, what happens when someone moves and joins another Church? Is he baptized into the new Church by a transfer letter?

I understand water baptism to be a public identification with Jesus Christ, and secondarily by default with whatever local Church baptizes him.

Baptism has nothing to do with becoming member of the local church. It has to do with the command by Christ to be baptized, and shows that one is following Christ. Yes, many who are baptized do join the church they've been baptized in, but that's not the case for all.

[MikeWatson1]

4 hours ago, bluewater said:

If water baptism is into a local Church, what happens when someone moves and joins another Church? Is he baptized into the new Church by a transfer letter?

I understand water baptism to be a public identification with Jesus Christ, and secondarily by default with whatever local Church baptizes him.

Baptised once as a pre requisite to join the system of God's churches.  Don't need it again.  It is a symbol of salvation... But without it you shouldn't be voted in to be a member of a local body.

 

It all boils down to how the Bible defines 'the church '.  If 1 co 12:13 is water baptism.. then that the standard.  Water baptism as a pre req to join the system of God's churches.

This why I question 'baptism by the Holy Spirit to join the body of Christ for salvation '  because that kind of baptism I can't find in scripture.

 

1 co 12 as a chapter is about the local body. That's the context.  Therefore 12:13  is also.

 

'ye are the body of Christ'.. that's the Corinth local body.

 

 

[bluewater]

1 hour ago, MikeWatson1 said:

Baptised once as a pre requisite to join the system of God's churches.  Don't need it again.  It is a symbol of salvation... But without it you shouldn't be voted in to be a member of a local body.

 

It all boils down to how the Bible defines 'the church '.  If 1 co 12:13 is water baptism.. then that the standard.  Water baptism as a pre req to join the system of God's churches.

This why I question 'baptism by the Holy Spirit to join the body of Christ for salvation '  because that kind of baptism I can't find in scripture.

 

1 co 12 as a chapter is about the local body. That's the context.  Therefore 12:13  is also.

 

'ye are the body of Christ'.. that's the Corinth local body.

 

 

"and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable,"  (1Co 12:23).

Paul said 'we bestow' and 'our less presentable members', and he was not a member of the Church at Corinth, so I take it that Paul was talking about the entire body of Christ in 1Cor 12. Also I am not aware that the Lord appointed apostles at Corinth, yet Paul says, "and God has appointed in the church, first apostles ..." (1Co 12:28). Again, Paul must have been speaking about the entire Church everywhere when he wrote 1Cor 12.

I equate baptism by the Spirit to be His endwelling individual believers when they first believe, and not necessarily evidenced by tongues or fire.

 

 

[TheGloryLand]

I’m glad, that  I was a grown-up, when they baptized me, the right way.
 

[MikeWatson1]

16 hours ago, bluewater said:

"and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable,"  (1Co 12:23).

Paul said 'we bestow' and 'our less presentable members', and he was not a member of the Church at Corinth, so I take it that Paul was talking about the entire body of Christ in 1Cor 12. Also I am not aware that the Lord appointed apostles at Corinth, yet Paul says, "and God has appointed in the church, first apostles ..." (1Co 12:28). Again, Paul must have been speaking about the entire Church everywhere when he wrote 1Cor 12.

I equate baptism by the Spirit to be His endwelling individual believers when they first believe, and not necessarily evidenced by tongues or fire.

 

 

With Paul in 1 co 12:13,. It's the royal 'we'... So meaning each separate local church.

So Paul would have been baptised in water in reference to the  Antioch church.. the Corinthians to Corinth. 

No problem there. 

Then the body defined in 1 co 12 is all language of togetherness, unity, care for one another..'where one member suffers all suffer with them'. .. that's not the language of the entity of every believer, where a believer over on the other side of the world is somehow meant to be a close connected body part.

I joined the local body after baptism. I got saved before joining the body of Christ, which is different to the Family and Kingdom. I joined the Kingdom and Family at salvation.

The body of Christ is not either the Family or the  Kingdom.  It is inside them.. but different.

 

The body will be one body of all believers in the end.. but that hasn't happened yet. The body of Christ is always visible and local. 

 

[bluewater]

On 4/7/2023 at 12:37 PM, MikeWatson1 said:

With Paul in 1 co 12:13,. It's the royal 'we'... So meaning each separate local church.

So Paul would have been baptised in water in reference to the  Antioch church.. the Corinthians to Corinth. 

No problem there. 

Then the body defined in 1 co 12 is all language of togetherness, unity, care for one another..'where one member suffers all suffer with them'. .. that's not the language of the entity of every believer, where a believer over on the other side of the world is somehow meant to be a close connected body part.

I joined the local body after baptism. I got saved before joining the body of Christ, which is different to the Family and Kingdom. I joined the Kingdom and Family at salvation.

The body of Christ is not either the Family or the  Kingdom.  It is inside them.. but different.

 

The body will be one body of all believers in the end.. but that hasn't happened yet. The body of Christ is always visible and local. 

 

1Cor 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

I don't think Paul was speaking with a royal 'we', or a royal 'our' for that matter. As in 1Cor 12:13 'we were all baptized into one body.' Christ has one body, not many local bodies but many local Churches. Individual Christians are each a member of Christ's one body. We certainly are part of local congregations, comprised of many members, but still all in one body of Christ. Eph 4:4 "There is one body and one Spirit." Eph 5:6 "because we are members of His body." Col 3:15 "to which indeed you were called in one body."

In our modern day vernacular some refer to a local 'body' of believers, but I don't think that is a technically or doctrinally correct way to use body.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On 4/7/2023 at 1:37 PM, MikeWatson1 said:

With Paul in 1 co 12:13,. It's the royal 'we'... So meaning each separate local church.

"The royal we, majestic plural (pluralis majestatis), or royal plural, is the use of a plural pronoun (or corresponding plural-inflected verb forms) used by a single person who is a monarch or holds a high office to refer to themselves."

Paul was not only talking about himself in 1 Corinthians 12:13; therefore, he was NOT using the "royal 'we'."  In fact, the apostle Paul was speaking under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit concerning the same "we" that might also be defined by the "all."  

[MikeWatson1]

5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

"The royal we, majestic plural (pluralis majestatis), or royal plural, is the use of a plural pronoun (or corresponding plural-inflected verb forms) used by a single person who is a monarch or holds a high office to refer to themselves."

Paul was not only talking about himself in 1 Corinthians 12:13; therefore, he was NOT using the "royal 'we'."  In fact, the apostle Paul was speaking under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit concerning the same "we" that might also be defined by the "all."  

This is true.  But what I mean is ... Paul was writing we as in Paul and the Corinthians .. 

 

So Paul   ... Separate to the Corinthians baptised in regards to one body (Antioch). And then the Corinthians baptised in regards to one body (Corinth).

No contradiction of the passage.

But the clincher of all of this must be Paul calling the church at Corinth .. the body of Christ.

Not 'a part' or 'an arm of the body'. .. but THE body.

And there is also the fact that when you go to the Greek . 'the' doesn't need to be there.  So it can read 'a' body of Christ.

Aside from this though..I can see how salvation is figuratively the Holy Spirit 'baptising ' someone. Because that's what salvation pictures with dieing and rising.  So it's not really a big deal 

 

Blessings 

[MikeWatson1]

9 hours ago, bluewater said:

1Cor 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

I don't think Paul was speaking with a royal 'we', or a royal 'our' for that matter. As in 1Cor 12:13 'we were all baptized into one body.' Christ has one body, not many local bodies but many local Churches. Individual Christians are each a member of Christ's one body. We certainly are part of local congregations, comprised of many members, but still all in one body of Christ. Eph 4:4 "There is one body and one Spirit." Eph 5:6 "because we are members of His body." Col 3:15 "to which indeed you were called in one body."

In our modern day vernacular some refer to a local 'body' of believers, but I don't think that is a technically or doctrinally correct way to use body.

Well .. even putting 'local' in front of church is nonsensical, because it's inherently local by its definition.

Like saying .. meet my local wife.  As if to be contrasting with a 'universal ' wife. !! 

So with the 'body if Christ' . It's local by its definition of being a body.  

 

A body is connected.. unified..together. That's not  language you'd associate with believers scattered all over the world 

The last thing is 'there is'.... In Ephesians 4... In front of 'one body'.  ..is an addition for emphasis and doesn't need to be there.  So it can read just 'one body, one faith.. etc ' 

That means then it can be ANY body. In this case... 'at Ephesus'

[TheGloryLand]

7 hours ago, MikeWatson1 said:

Well .. even putting 'local' in front of church is nonsensical, because it's inherently local by its definition.

Like saying .. meet my local wife.  As if to be contrasting with a 'universal ' wife. !! 

So with the 'body if Christ' . It's local by its definition of being a body.  

 

A body is connected.. unified..together. That's not  language you'd associate with believers scattered all over the world 

The last thing is 'there is'.... In Ephesians 4... In front of 'one body'.  ..is an addition for emphasis and doesn't need to be there.  So it can read just 'one body, one faith.. etc ' 

That means then it can be ANY body. In this case... 'at Ephesus'

When I say attending a local church, or my local church. I am talking about the church that I am attending locally. We that are born again, belong to the body of Christ. Now we all know the body of Christ, cannot be maintained in one building, or location. So the body of Christ, and the local church can be everywhere, or anywhere. I’m my humble opinion.

Edited April 9, 2023 by TheGloryLand

[MikeWatson1]

7 hours ago, TheGloryLand said:

When I say attending a local church, or my local church. I am talking about the church that I am attending locally. We that are born again, belong to the body of Christ. Now we all know the body of Christ, cannot be maintained in one building, or location. So the body of Christ, and the local church can be everywhere, or anywhere. I’m my humble opinion.

 

Well the idea of the body of Christ being all believers now is just assumed to be true.

Scripture defines the body as the church.  And the church is defined as 'ecclessia'.   

That is a 'called out' assembly or congregation.  Called out from their homes, to a gathering.

So although so many assume the universal body of believers when referring to the body of Christ,  it's not actually supported in scripture.  

 

Most people assume the body and Kingdom to be the same entity. 

Scripture separates them.

Edited April 9, 2023 by MikeWatson1
Wording out

[Pastor Scott Markle]

3 hours ago, MikeWatson1 said:

Well the idea of the body of Christ being all believers now is just assumed to be true.

Scripture defines the body as the church.  And the church is defined as 'ecclessia'.   

That is a 'called out' assembly or congregation.  Called out from their homes, to a gathering.

So although so many assume the universal body of believers when referring to the body of Christ,  it's not actually supported in scripture.  

God's Holy Word states the following in Hebrews 12:22-24 -- "But ye ARE come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and CHURCH ["ecclesia"] of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

Herein God's own Word speaks of a church ("ecclesia") that universally includes all New Testament believers whose names "are written in heaven."  Furthermore, it speaks of this church ("ecclesia") in the present tense, and indicates that New Testament believers who are still on the earth have come to be a part thereof.

18 hours ago, MikeWatson1 said:

A body is connected.. unified..together. That's not  language you'd associate with believers scattered all over the world 

Actually, it really does not matter what language I might associate with a given aspect of doctrine.  It really only matters what language the Lord our God Himself through His Holy Word as inspired by His Holy Spirit might associate with a given aspect of doctrine.

Truthfully, I myself would not have considered on my own that all New Testament believers, scattered all over the world, are actually seated in heaven.  However, the Lord our God in His Holy Spirit inspired Word reveals precisely that.  I myself would not have considered on my own that all New Testament believers today were actually crucified with Christ two thousand years ago and raised again with Christ two thousand years ago.  However, the Lord our God in His Holy Spirit inspired Word teaches precisely that.  (By the way, according to Romans 6:4 all New Testament believers today were buried with Christ into His death by means of baptism, not figuratively, but actually.  So, was this accomplished by water baptism or by Spirit baptism.  (Note: Some so-called "figurative" baptism could not have accomplished what Romans 6:3-11 indicates.))

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

Baptism with the Holy Spirit:

Titus 3:5-7 KJV reads, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

Being "saved" is described here as "the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified . . . "

The baptism (described here as "shed on") with the Holy Spirit is described occuring along with and as the means for regeneration, renewing, and justification at salvation. Though they might not know it, each individual who comes to Christ for salvation experiences this personally.

Water baptism is an outward demonstration of this reality.

As for the concepts of universal church and local churches, consider that we, here, are mostly from different local churches and yet we're connected to one another universally. As brothers and sisters in Christ, who are locally connected and built up, we're nevertheless building one another up in Christ across the globe.

John said, "I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man" (Rev. 1:12-13 KJV). He is seeing seven distinct churches with Christ in the centre, but this image of seven candlesticks is one candelabra.

Paul, is not from Corinth, yet he writes, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:13 KJV). His use of the pronoun "we" appears to clearly imply that though he views the local church in Corinth distinctly, he does so with Christ's universal church in mind.

Note, he uses the pronoun "we" in his teaching to the church in Rome, a church he hadn't planted.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Dr. Robert S. Morley
Added, "Water baptism is an outward demonstration of this reality." Added, " . . . who comes to Christ for salvation . . . "