Calvinism is an incorrect understanding of soteriology

[Donut_brand_donuts]

(arminianism is also incorrect)

Before the foundation of the world God knew that mankind would need redemption from their wickedness and decided that He would choose all who who are in Christ by faith to be holy and without blame, adopted as sons and forgiven of sins. See Ephesians 1:4-7

 

Note: He did not choose which individuals would be in Christ.

 

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Donut_brand_donuts

[Pastor Matt]

[heartstrings]

 

On 2/24/2023 at 7:27 PM, PastorMatt said:

Mysteries like.... "his ways are higher than our ways"? (also an incorrect understanding)

[BrotherTony]

I'm not fond of the soteriology these people hold to, as it's divisive at every turn. All only means all when it fits their agenda, and they consistently misrepresent what those who hold to a free will position believe. They love the term "straw man" but hate when it's applied to their pet doctrine. They seldom discuss any other doctrines of the Bible, and that's a shame.

[MikeWatson1]

Main issue with Calvinism I think is saying they are converted before they believe in Jesus. 

And then if you are converted you WILL be a continuously faithful believer.

That really messes with the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration and the free gift of salvation not by works.

Some Calvinists get saved anyway because believing on Jesus is something they were supposed to do.   But it's getting pre destiny for salvation when it's for the end result of heaven for someone who believes.

 

Pre destiny is also for the local church in the end for what will happen to the church... Different judgment to the saved who were not in a church faithfully.

[Leah Hairston]

I think much of the confusion comes from Christians who think faith is an epistemic issue and nothing more. While we are saved by grace through faith not of works, faith necessarily includes works. faith is not epistemic. It includes action. That is, being faithful is the same as having faith.

[R Sauter]

44 minutes ago, Leah Hairston said:

I think much of the confusion comes from Christians who think faith is an epistemic issue and nothing more. While we are saved by grace through faith not of works, faith necessarily includes works. faith is not epistemic. It includes action. That is, being faithful is the same as having faith.

The question to ask is where does the faith come from whereby one believes? Some reduce this down to mere mental assent (head knowledge) of which I think everyone here would agree that such would be a false conversion. Eph 2:8-9 (which everyone here could likely quote from memory) has the phrase "and that not of yourselves" which is a key part that should not be neglected. John says we are not born of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God (Jn 1:13).

Calvinism becomes divisive when it is misrepresented and one's only perception of this historical view is the distorted straw man that is illogial and absurd. The argument has raged on for close to 2000 years now, you actually think you can settle the matter by whipping out a few verses (and often out of context)?

Some claim to be neither Calvinist or Arminian but then go full "Pelagian" or "Open Theist" in their attempts to stay as far away from Calvinism as they can! I would rather stick to the scriptures and not fall into such heresy.

A member asked last Saturday about our church's "official position" regarding Calvinism. I told him "We do not have one nor will we have one any time in the near future! Those who teach on a regular basis have differing views that span both sides of the argument and we are all mature enough to discuss without being divisive or intentionally offensive!" 

I was having a small group study at our house discussing Romans which we had recently read through. One of the ladies had quite a few questions regarding all of the passages regarding "election" and we had a wonderful Christ-honoring time of discussion! Our head deacon spoke of his own salvation and I acknowledged the fact that although he was "Chosen from the foundation of the world," there was a time in his life when he realized he was dead in sin and was made alive in Christ! Both are essential soteriological truths!

[Behold]

Calvin simply redefined "God's foreknowledge" as "Predestined", and from that starting point, created a Theology that is both Theological and Spiritual poison.

 

Paul says that the born again, who are fallen from Grace, are "Bewitched" and "WHO has deceived you".

 

A.) John Calvin is one of the worst as his Theology, can take your mind and put it in a dark place so that the Gospel becomes obscure and the Cross become Hidden.

 

John Calvinism is a cancer on the Body of Christ.

 

That's a fact.

[SureWord]

Every Calvinst I've listened to ended up teaching Arminianism.

"If you didn't persevere until the end you never were saved to begin with."

"If Jesus isn't Lord of all he isn't Lord at all."

All smacks of good works.

[MikeWatson1]

2 hours ago, SureWord said:

Every Calvinst I've listened to ended up teaching Arminianism.

"If you didn't persevere until the end you never were saved to begin with."

"If Jesus isn't Lord of all he isn't Lord at all."

All smacks of good works.

Yea making Jesus Lord over every area of life right at conversion time. ..and if He isn't number 1 in every area then the calvinist fruit inspector cometh

[Behold]

There are no denominations in Heaven, and that is because denominations are man made.

Here is how to understand it..

1.) God makes CHRISTians

2.) Man makes Denominations.... about 45,000 of them worldwide... and about 4000 in the USA.

So, isn't it interesting how Believers cling to them down here?

Its fascinating, but not in a good way...... to discover just how much this has become a person's MIND reading their "CHRISTianity".

If you want to find out just how deeply  a person has become denonination-alized.., regarding their self association with their "Christian Brand", then just do this..reader.

Find a believer. (any will do), and ask them..... = in person.

"Are you a CHRISTIAN". ???????

And they will say...>"Yes, im a Baptist, Yes im a Catholic, Yes im a Methodist....,Yes Im a Assembly of God... Yes im a Mormom..

= Yes.. im a DENOMINATiON....

See the problem?

A.) There are no denominations in Heaven.

So, The problem is clearly understood when you remind them that you didnt ask them if they were a Denomination..

You asked them if they were a CHRISTian...

A.) OOOPs

See it?

Think on that.

Edited March 4 by Behold

[BrotherTony]

2 hours ago, Behold said:

There are no denominations in Heaven, and that is because denominations are man made.

Here is how to understand it..

1.) God makes CHRISTians

2.) Man makes Denominations.... about 45,000 of them worldwide... and about 4000 in the USA.

So, isn't it interesting how Believers cling to them down here?

Its fascinating, but not in a good way...... to discover just how much this has become a person's MIND reading their "CHRISTianity".

If you want to find out just how deeply  a person has become denonination-alized.., regarding their self association with their "Christian Brand", then just do this..reader.

Find a believer. (any will do), and ask them..... = in person.

"Are you a CHRISTIAN". ???????

And they will say...>"Yes, im a Baptist, Yes im a Catholic, Yes im a Methodist....,Yes Im a Assembly of God... Yes im a Mormom..

= Yes.. im a DENOMINATiON....

See the problem?

A.) There are no denominations in Heaven.

So, The problem is clearly understood when you remind them that you didnt ask them if they were a Denomination..

You asked them if they were a CHRISTian...

A.) OOOPs

See it?

Think on that.

You're taking a preconceived ideology and painting with a wide brush. When people ask anyone that I know they don't even give people an inkling of the denomination that they are part of. They always start the conversation off with the fact that they are a Christian, and then go into their salvation testimony. So, really the problem is in your ideology as presented.

[R Sauter]

1 Cor 14:38

[Jerry]

On 2/26/2024 at 7:54 AM, R Sauter said:

The question to ask is where does the faith come from whereby one believes? Some reduce this down to mere mental assent (head knowledge) of which I think everyone here would agree that such would be a false conversion. Eph 2:8-9 (which everyone here could likely quote from memory) has the phrase "and that not of yourselves" which is a key part that should not be neglected. John says we are not born of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God (Jn 1:13).

God doesn't cause or make people believe; however, He gives them the ability to believe, gives the conviction of their sins and the understanding of the Gospel, but it is still up to man to respond. No one is forced to believe (ie, forced to go to Heaven), nor is anyone forced or chosen to go to Hell - aside from their personal choices.

Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches that salvation is a gift of God, not our faith.

What the Bible teaches about election is that God chose certain things for those who would trust in Christ, and all those that do so are predestined to all those things: eternal life, inheritance, to be conformed to the image of Christ, etc. They were not predestined to believe or to not believe, to receive Christ or reject Him.

[Jerry]

2 hours ago, Behold said:

And they will say...>"Yes, im a Baptist, Yes im a Catholic, Yes im a Methodist....,Yes Im a Assembly of God... Yes im a Mormom..

= Yes.. im a DENOMINATiON....

You just labelled two FALSE religions/CULTS as Christian denominations. And those two DO teach a different gospel, a different Jesus, etc; therefore they are not of God and to be warned against and exposed.

Also, there were denominations in Jesus' day (in the NT). The NT word used is SECT. Look it up. Jesus didn't condemn someone for being part of a sext/denomination or identifying themselves as a Christian, as a follower of the way, as a brethren, as a Jewish proselyte, etc - but He condemned where those specific denominations added to or took away from the Word of God.

Yes, some denominations AND ALL cults started because some men or women wanted to add their own beliefs and practices to what God has said in His Word - YET, there are others that were clearly led of God and were formed because they stood upon the Word of God and separated from and exposed the error of other denominations or cults and religions - which the Bible tells us to do. God is not for unity at the sake of truth. In fact there are various passages that He tells us He came to bring a sword to separate the light from the darkness, the false brethren from the true.

By the way, Baptists (anabaptists, Waldensians, and others of a like nature) were historically for the truth and against the error of their days, and many died for standing alone on the Word of God. The false brethren were the ones persecuting them and killing them and slandering them and giving them their names (anabaptist).

God preserved His Word historically through these remnant groups. (I say historically because many no longer stand where they once stood - but that does not negate their history or make it irrelevant. I proclaim myself as an INDEPENDENT FUNDAMENTAL BAPTIST because:

1. Independent - I believe in the autonomy of the local church - yes, my church may have similarities to many other Baptist churches, but we are not a denomination in the sense that some group or church somewhere has authority over us and dictates what we believe or practice.

2. Fundamental - I believe that the FUNDAMENTALS of the faith are necessary for salvation and for someone to be identified as a true NT Bible believer/church. I also hold to all the Baptist Distinctives, which separates me in some sense from all other "Christian" groups, true or false, that only embrace some of them.

3. Baptist - It's an identification for others to be able to find believers of a like mind.

Everything I see in the Bible, especially in the NT, tells me to dig into the Bible, study it, rightly divide it, then hold with all my heart to what I believe it teaches. That is the type of believer God promises to bless - not the one who is willing to cast the truth aside for the sake of some ecumenical unity.