Liberals' Bane

[Jim_Alaska]

I agree with Pastor Matt. This is a public forum, and as such there was nothing done behind anyone's back. Everything was out in the open and free to be responded to, or not, as members saw fit. 

[BrotherTony]

1 hour ago, bluewater said:

I'm right here Matt. You can address me directly, rather than in the 3rd person and about me.

 You did the same thing to theopolitan; spoke about him behind his back and then laughed. Where's the love in that?

I came searching for fellowship, but I sensed something not right. And what did I find - an administrator-pastor making fun of someone after they left; and another administrator-pastor's wife who could learn that the Lord Himself is our banner, that Christ is our freedom/liberty given by God (no symbols necessary).

 

Wow! I mean, WOW! If you sensed something wasn't right, which, of course is totally off base, then why did you stay? I don't see what PastorMatt did as going behind anyones back. It's a public forum.Whether he addresses you or anyone else in "third person" as long as it's not something against scripture, I don't believe he did anything wrong. Seems like you know a lot about PastorMatt...of course, he doesn't hide who he is. Remember, you're a guest here, as are we all. Lecturing the admniinstrator and others here isn't wise. 

[Pastor Matt]

4 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

Lecturing the administrator and others here isn't wise. 

I don't mind that at all. I can always use a good lecturing lol. 

Now i'm just curious what HappyChristian's answer is to the statue

[bluewater]

I had a bit of an attitude and was not demonstrating / speaking out of love. I apologize for it.

[Pastor Matt]

12 hours ago, bluewater said:

I had a bit of an attitude and was not demonstrating / speaking out of love. I apologize for it.

Appreciate it, have a great day today and and even better Lords day tomorrow. I look forward to getting to know you more on here. 

btw, I think this topic of American Flags on a stage is actually a really good topic. 

[Salyan]

On 12/30/2022 at 5:27 AM, PastorMatt said:

Was it an American flag that they had in a Canadian Church? If so, that is a little too much for me. 

 

I’d probably take it down myself! No, they use Canadian flags. It’s just a weirdly over-patriotic move that only Americans do. Canadians never did much flag-waving until last February (at which point it became a symbol of resistance and sone people got tickets for them).

[1Timothy115]

We've had them in IFB and IB churches to the sides and behind the pulpit. I have no problem with showing respect for the U.S. Flag and the Baptist Flag on the platform area. For that matter, as a retired Navy man I like it. Our new pastor had them both removed. I honor the Lord first and God's under shepherd of the local church second. For me the flag represents the authority God permitted within our Declaration and U.S. Constitution. I don't come into the sanctuary and give the flag a salute, either one of them. I don't worship nor give undo honor to our nation's flag. Honor to the flag is such a little thing and has never been a part of worship toward God in any church I've attended or been a member of.

 

[HappyChristian]

On 12/30/2022 at 10:34 AM, bluewater said:

and another administrator-pastor's wife who could learn that the Lord Himself is our banner, that Christ is our freedom/liberty given by God (no symbols necessary).

 

Take care, blue. You are virtually accusing me of something without even knowing me nor how much I've already learned about Christ being our banner. I saw that you apologized. If your comment about me was included, I accept it.

IF you don't want flags in your auditorium, don't put them there. But remember this: we do not live by the dictates of man...God does not demand anywhere in scripture that we NOT use the flag of our country. Ergo, we have liberty to have them or not. "Independent" - such a lovely word.  "Liberty" - even lovelier! As long as we don't use that liberty as a cloak of maliciousness.

As for the statue of liberty, if we used a bank for children to put in their coins, I'd have no problem with it (banks like that are very small, so it would be rather inconspicuous...I suppose we could put it on the little shelf by the door that currently houses our 5 inch lighthouse...there because of our name, not because we worship lighthouses). No more than if it were a globe bank for them to place their pennies. However, we do not do that at our church. For no particular reason, we just don't. So, no statue of liberty. 

(sorry - I wrote this answer a few hours ago, but saw that it was time to head to church for a meeting we are in so I had to wait to finish it.)

Although, I have to say: if we had a statue of liberty bank I could incorporate it into the decorations from May - July! 

[bluewater]

16 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

I saw that you apologized. If your comment about me was included, I accept it.

It was meant to include you also, and I should have responded directly to you.

 

16 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

if we had a statue of liberty bank I could incorporate it into the decorations from May - July!

Knowing that the Statue of Liberty is an idol of a goddess, would you set that idol in your sanctuary?

[Pastor Matt]

7 minutes ago, bluewater said:

Knowing that the Statue of Liberty is an idol of a goddess, would you set that idol in your sanctuary?

I know you were commenting to HP, but it may be clearer if you define what you consider the definition of idol. I ask because idolatry in the Bible extends beyond the worship of images/false gods. 

[HappyChristian]

1 hour ago, bluewater said:

 

 

Knowing that the Statue of Liberty is an idol of a goddess, would you set that idol in your sanctuary?

Let me ask you a question first: Knowing that the name Sunday is derived from what actually means "Sun's Day" - named after the sun god...would you quit calling it Sunday? Or maybe quit going to church on Sunday, because that recognizes the sun god? Or would you realize that liberty - even if there is a "goddess" named Libertas - assures that we can call it Sunday without it being a form of worship of Ra or any other sun god in paganism.  Mayhap your church meets midweek on Wednesday - Woden's Day, or Odin's Day. Chief god...so when someone says they attend Bible study on Wednesday, they are speaking the name of the chief Norse god...are they worshipping him? Perhaps your church meets Thursdays...Thor's day..

Do you see where I'm going with this? Our days and our months all have names derived from gods/goddesses. Should we rename them so that we aren't accused of praying to the gods when we speak what is tantamount to their names?

I've been in churches where they use a globe bank when folks have birthdays. All ages come up as happy birthday is sung and deposit pennies in the amount of their age. Is that wrong? No, of course not. WE know it is because God so loved the world and He wants us to evangelize the entire world. However, given that paganism is on the rise...and rapidly here in America, more than many people realize...should that globe be used? Perhaps a pagan would come in and automatically assume that it is actually a form of worship to Gaia, earth goddess?

I think we need to understand that we do not set out to assimilate ungodliness. But the fact remains that there is liberty in Christ. So tonight, Tiu's day (the germanic god of war), my  husband and I are heading over in a bit for a discipleship class. To disciple a couple in Christ, not Tiu.

And, btw, I'm not being snarky or sarcastic - I am enjoying this conversation, as we can learn much from each other.

And, just for the record, I was being a bit facetious about incorporating lady liberty into our decorations...but I will assert that, even with the history of the statue, there is no comparison between that and Old Glory. 

[bluewater]

55 minutes ago, HappyChristian said:

Let me ask you a question first: Knowing that the name Sunday is derived from what actually means "Sun's Day" - named after the sun god...would you quit calling it Sunday? Or maybe quit going to church on Sunday, because that recognizes the sun god? Or would you realize that liberty - even if there is a "goddess" named Libertas - assures that we can call it Sunday without it being a form of worship of Ra or any other sun god in paganism.  Mayhap your church meets midweek on Wednesday - Woden's Day, or Odin's Day. Chief god...so when someone says they attend Bible study on Wednesday, they are speaking the name of the chief Norse god...are they worshipping him? Perhaps your church meets Thursdays...Thor's day..

Do you see where I'm going with this? Our days and our months all have names derived from gods/goddesses. Should we rename them so that we aren't accused of praying to the gods when we speak what is tantamount to their names?

I've been in churches where they use a globe bank when folks have birthdays. All ages come up as happy birthday is sung and deposit pennies in the amount of their age. Is that wrong? No, of course not. WE know it is because God so loved the world and He wants us to evangelize the entire world. However, given that paganism is on the rise...and rapidly here in America, more than many people realize...should that globe be used? Perhaps a pagan would come in and automatically assume that it is actually a form of worship to Gaia, earth goddess?

I think we need to understand that we do not set out to assimilate ungodliness. But the fact remains that there is liberty in Christ. So tonight, Tiu's day (the germanic god of war), my  husband and I are heading over in a bit for a discipleship class. To disciple a couple in Christ, not Tiu.

And, btw, I'm not being snarky or sarcastic - I am enjoying this conversation, as we can learn much from each other.

And, just for the record, I was being a bit facetious about incorporating lady liberty into our decorations...but I will assert that, even with the history of the statue, there is no comparison between that and Old Glory. 

I'm just saying Christians shouldn't bring civil secular symbols into the sanctuary of a church. People will begin associating them with Christianity.

 

[1Timothy115]

1 hour ago, bluewater said:

I'm just saying Christians shouldn't bring civil secular symbols into the sanctuary of a church. People will begin associating them with Christianity.

 

Well, at least you're not encouraging flag burning to oppose our nation's flag in our churches, I'll give you that.

[HappyChristian]

2 hours ago, bluewater said:

I'm just saying Christians shouldn't bring civil secular symbols into the sanctuary of a church. People will begin associating them with Christianity.

 

But that doesn't answer my question.   And, FWIW, I tip my hat to you for your stand. I don't agree with you, obviously, but will not castigate you for your belief. 

 

[Napsterdad]

10 hours ago, bluewater said:

I'm just saying Christians shouldn't bring civil secular symbols into the sanctuary of a church. People will begin associating them with Christianity.

 

I imagine this could be a bit difficult for those “churches” that must gather in schools or some other public venue (due to lack of their own facility) where secular, and even other religious symbols, may be common. While deployed in the military the same facility may be used for the conduct of all religions' services (Christian, Jewish, Islam, Wicca, etc.). You may also be sure that in such military installations the American Flag is most likely present. Are you implying that in each of these places the room should be thoroughly scrubbed to remove any instance of secular or religious symbolism not relevant to biblical Christianity?

The fact of the matter is that “where” we worship is of little importance. Nowhere in the bible is church defined as a specific place. The word translated “church” in the Bible is ekklesia, which is derived from the words ek: a primary preposition denoting origin “from, out”, and kaleo: which means to bid or call. So biblically speaking a “church” is a calling out. The church is the people, not the place.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13

This is the church. Those that have been called out (ekklesia) from this world and by salvation have been spiritually baptized into the body of Christ. The church is a people that gather together to worship God and Christ.

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Matthew 18:20

Now, if in the hearts of any of these people a flag or some other secular or religious item is taking precedence over God then there is a problem; but based on Matthew 18:20 it doesn’t appear that Jesus was too concerned with the surrounding environment so long as two or three were sincerely gathered in His name.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Napsterdad