The two witnesses and cessationism

[MikeWatson1]

A challenge put to me when writing about the sign gifts ceasing was on what the two witnesses could do in that they seemed to operate with the gifts of the Spirit in prophecy.

I couldn't really refute the argument that they must still be for now if the witnesses could do that in the future. 

I'd like your thoughts on this,  but recently I heard that people don't lose their gifts given.. so if they were sent back to earth from being apostles 2000 years ago.. or not apostles but people who had the gifts.. then they could operate in them during Revelation times. 

 

Your thoughts?

[BrotherTony]

1 hour ago, MikeWatson1 said:

A challenge put to me when writing about the sign gifts ceasing was on what the two witnesses could do in that they seemed to operate with the gifts of the Spirit in prophecy.

I couldn't really refute the argument that they must still be for now if the witnesses could do that in the future. 

I'd like your thoughts on this,  but recently I heard that people don't lose their gifts given.. so if they were sent back to earth from being apostles 2000 years ago.. or not apostles but people who had the gifts.. then they could operate in them during Revelation times. 

 

Your thoughts

Isn't what the two witnesses do after the church has been taken up in the rapture? This would  sort of negate that line of thought, IMHO. It would be a different dispensation of time. 

[MikeWatson1]

44 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

Isn't what the two witnesses do after the church has been taken up in the rapture? This would  sort of negate that line of thought, IMHO. It would be a different dispensation of time. 

True.. well if that is the case. .then maybe it is that the two witnesses aren't operating in the gifts of the Spirit but still being supernaturally empowered?  

I really got to do a study of Revelation for myself.. I got bits and pieces .. but don't get alot of it.

 

[BrotherTony]

3 hours ago, MikeWatson1 said:

True.. well if that is the case. .then maybe it is that the two witnesses aren't operating in the gifts of the Spirit but still being supernaturally empowered?  

I really got to do a study of Revelation for myself.. I got bits and pieces .. but don't get alot of it.

 

I have always been taught that this is what is going on. Since they are Old Testament prophets, I would think they would be operating under the OT guidelines. Of course I'm sure there are some here who would disagree with me, and that's okay. 

Edited August 28, 2022 by BrotherTony

[1Timothy115]

6 hours ago, MikeWatson1 said:

A challenge put to me when writing about the sign gifts ceasing was on what the two witnesses could do in that they seemed to operate with the gifts of the Spirit in prophecy.

I couldn't really refute the argument that they must still be for now if the witnesses could do that in the future. 

I'd like your thoughts on this,  but recently I heard that people don't lose their gifts given.. so if they were sent back to earth from being apostles 2000 years ago.. or not apostles but people who had the gifts.. then they could operate in them during Revelation times. 

 

Your thoughts?

It would appear there are two speakers present in Revelation 10 and 11 (“another mighty angel” 10:1 and “a voice from heaven” 10:4). Whomever is speaking, we read the ability to prophesy with power given unto “my two witnesses” in 11:3 and the additional powers given of fire to “devoureth their enemies” 11:5, “shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy” and “waters to turn them to blood” and “smite the earth with all plagues” 11:6. Also, these powers were given for a well-defined mission.

None of the above were original spiritual gifts given by Christ to the Apostles or other disciples… Mark 3 and 6, Luke 9, and Matthew 18:18 …these are not mentioned here. So, I believe these gifts mentioned in the gospels were not required to fulfill this mission of God’s purpose. Also, as an aside, closely examine Revelation 10:3 where John is told, "Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings", so I'm not so sure they are O.T. saints.

Edited August 28, 2022 by 1Timothy115

[MikeWatson1]

This is helpful thank you sirs

[1Timothy115]

9 hours ago, MikeWatson1 said:

This is helpful thank you sirs

[MikeWatson1]

Whether or not the witnesses are ot saints there is nothing there to support that they are working in the sign gifts of the Spirit,  so it settles the matter

Thank you 

[1Timothy115]

O.K. Something else may further support your position... " "sign gifts" which are understood to have been manifestations of the Holy Spirit to authenticate the messenger and the gospel message during the foundational period of the church." Sign Gifts of the Holy Spirit | Moody Global Ministries (moodybible.org) 

[MikeWatson1]

On 8/30/2022 at 11:39 AM, 1Timothy115 said:

O.K. Something else may further support your position... " "sign gifts" which are understood to have been manifestations of the Holy Spirit to authenticate the messenger and the gospel message during the foundational period of the church." Sign Gifts of the Holy Spirit | Moody Global Ministries (moodybible.org) 

 

Yeah, it is looking at the purpose, foundational nature and occurences of the sign gifts in the New Testament that lead to the conclusion they have fulfilled their purpose and put away. 

I also put ministry gifts in the same category to sign gifts.. as foundational and now put away.. different to the Moody Bible Institute.. and have a different position on baptism of the Holy Spirit.. but the same thing is there with the sign gifts being foundational.

I have no beef with those who are into ministry gifts for now.. because they don't tend to resemble anything paganistic like the jibberish speaking in tongues people do now.  I don't see a big difference between someone being talented in a ministry and believing they have the gift of evangelism etc..

But the two witnesses looks more like being empowered supernaturally rather than anything else.

 

[Jerry]

The church is still here - until the rapture - so it makes perfect sense if ministry gifts still exist until that point in time. We still need teaching, we still need pastors and teachers, we still need exhortation and those that serve others, we still need those that show mercy in helping others, those that give in a way others do not, etc. Everyone should be witnesses, but there are people that are gifted in a way that others are not. You can tell it in their boldness, their ability to reach the lost and strengthen believers, their understanding of the Bible (this last point is in regards to God manifesting His Word through preaching - and I have found that when I am studying the Bible to preach the Word it opens up to me way more than when I am just studying it on my own - it is like the Lord is giving more to give to others).

[MikeWatson1]

The other thing with this discussion is prophecy.. that doesn't necessarily mean 'operating with the gift of prophecy'  but is 'speaking forth God's Word.'  

A pastor preaching from the Word could effectively be prophesying.  

In regard to ministry gifts.. I believe the 'knowledge of the unity of the faith'  'measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ' .. is the completed Word of God.. but again..  some one talented in a ministry.. no big difference between believing they have the gift.. so I got no qualms.

[Invicta]

They are also two olive trees and two candlesticks so the whole thing must be symbolic.

[Jerry]

Symbolic of what? Of two individuals that God has set apart to preach/witness during the tribulation period. The symbols point to realities and they can be determined by tracing the symbolism throughout the Bible.

[Invicta]

Candlesticks are identified as churches in the first chapter. Two being the lowest number of witnesses in the law. It refers to the minimum witness God had during the tribulation under the Roman "church ". Enough to keep a gospel witness in those dark days.