Satan and Eden

[Jim_Alaska]

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts they would like to share regarding Satan being in Eden, as portrayed in the book of Ezekiel. I was thinking specifically about the difference that we see between the garden of Eden as it is portrayed in Genesis, compared with Eden in Ezekiel. In Genesis God planted the garden, in Ezekiel the garden is portrayed as mineral in nature and called, "the garden of God".

I was just curious about how people viewed this garden, if it was the same place in both accounts and why anyone believes what they believe about it.

Ezekiel 28:12-17 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

[BrotherTony]

Question, @Jim_Alaska? I've not studied this, but will be doing so this week since it's been brought to my attention again. I heard someone preach on this back in the late 80s, and then another pastor in the mid 1990s. The preacher from the 1980s said that just because Eden was mentioned doesn't mean that these stones were made in reference to the Garden. Instead, they were a reference to the stones that were part of the covering of Lucifer....I think he referred to "armour." The one from the 1990s said that the Garden of Eden was filled with these elements. Neither could sufficiently, in my opinion, prove their points. So, doesn't the semi-colon in the verse actually separate the two events? Wasn't Adam placed in the Garden to tend the foliage of the domain? Wouldn't that indicate that the Garden in Genesis was just that, a garden/orchard? Asking in all sincerity. Those, from my cursory examination of the two references seems to be what it indicates. I truly wish these other two preachers had tried to make their cases. 

[Jerry]

I believe they are the same garden. The different descriptions could be different areas of the garden.

I do not believe any angels fell during creation week. At the end of the sixth day, God said it was very good. I don't believe He would have pronounced His creation very good if there was sin in it.

Other passages state that everything that was made - including the hosts of heaven, the angels (yes, context determines which hosts are in view - either angels or stars) - was made in those six days. Hebrews 1:14 states angels are ministers to those who shall be heirs of salvation, so there is no reason for angels to be created sometime before the creation of the earth (and the universe).

Also, there is nowhere in Scripture that states that the earthly Eden was a type or shadow of a Heavenly Garden of Eden - but in reference to the temple and even Jerusalem, we are told that.

Genesis 2 does indicate that there was gold and other precious stones nearby or in the garden of Eden, connected to one of the rivers:

Genesis 2:10-12 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.

[Jim_Alaska]

Thanks for the help folks. There doesn't seem to be much about this subject anywhere.

[Jerry]

I have one or two books on Satan, I think. I will check to see if there is anything in them mentioned about the garden of Eden.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Jerry

[Jerry]

One book I have called The Serpent Of Paradise by Erwin Lutzer states this:

This Eden was not the garden of Eden, for this is a description of mineral beauty, not vegetation. It is a garden bedecked with jewels and every form of extravagance, a paradise that is a suitable home for one who possessed creaturely perfections.

A couple of the other resources I have do not mention this subject. If I find out any more references, I will try to post them here too.

[Jim_Alaska]

That was my main concern Jerry, one was mineral in nature, while the other was vegetation.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

18 hours ago, Jerry said:

One book I have called The Serpent Of Paradise by Erwin Lutzer states this:

This Eden was not the garden of Eden, for this is a description of mineral beauty, not vegetation. It is a garden bedecked with jewels and every form of extravagance, a paradise that is a suitable home for one who possessed creaturely perfections. (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

This seems off to me according to the grammar of Ezekiel 28:12-17; for the grammar seems only to describe the "king of Tyrus" himself, not the Garden of Eden at all:

"Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD;

1.  Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

2.  Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;

3.  every precious stone was THY COVERING, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold:

4.  the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

5.  Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:

6.  thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

7.  Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

8.  By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned:

9.  therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

10.  Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:

11.  I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee."

Grammatically, in verse 13 (as per #2 & #3 above) the description of precious stones is NOT presented as a description for the Garden of Eden.  Rather, the description of precious stones is presented as a description of the king of Tyrus' PERSONAL covering.  In fact, the only thing that verse 13 says about the Garden of Eden is simply that the king of Tyrus had been in that garden.  It says nothing about precious stones as a part of that garden.

[Hugh_Flower]

On 6/22/2022 at 12:55 PM, Jerry said:

I believe they are the same garden. The different descriptions could be different areas of the garden.

I do not believe any angels fell during creation week. At the end of the sixth day, God said it was very good. I don't believe He would have pronounced His creation very good if there was sin in it.

Other passages state that everything that was made - including the hosts of heaven, the angels (yes, context determines which hosts are in view - either angels or stars) - was made in those six days. Hebrews 1:14 states angels are ministers to those who shall be heirs of salvation, so there is no reason for angels to be created sometime before the creation of the earth (and the universe).

Also, there is nowhere in Scripture that states that the earthly Eden was a type or shadow of a Heavenly Garden of Eden - but in reference to the temple and even Jerusalem, we are told that.

Genesis 2 does indicate that there was gold and other precious stones nearby or in the garden of Eden, connected to one of the rivers:

Genesis 2:10-12 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.

Just want to point out that  Hebrews 1:14 is just declaring a service they provide for our Lord ( Ministering to those who will be heirs of salvation ), but this does not Imply this was the reason the where created. 
 

Now in my opinion (and I bet we could

prove this out through scripture) all the angels where created to give Glory to God and to worship him, and ministering to his will. I think Hebrews 1:14 would just be a part of their service to him. 
 

In that fashion Angels could be pre-existing to our world.

[Jerry]

I think, based on these passages, that the angels were created by or just before the third day, when the foundations of the earth were laid (and none had fallen yet) - look at the order of events.

Genesis 1:9-10, 13 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good... And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Job 38:4-7 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Psalm 104:2-5 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

Nehemiah 9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

In the last passage, the host of heaven being referred to are the angels, as the heaven of heaven certainly seems to refer to the third heaven, where the presence of God dwells, and it is stated that those are the host of that heaven (ie. therefore not referring to the stars in the second heaven). That also means the third heaven was not created until creation week - there would be no need to have a "third heaven" as a place until there were occupants in it, which were created during creation week.

Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

[Hugh_Flower]

It does seem like the Angels where already worshipping the Lord before the the foundations as they where there present when he did create them.

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is
 

Heaven here would not be the third Heaven 

[Jerry]

Nehemiah 9:6 is referring to the third heaven though. Also, God had to create the third heaven, and several passages state that ALL He created was in those six days. It is not like the third heaven has always existed if it was a place made for saved mankind and angels to dwell in.

[Hugh_Flower]

21 hours ago, Jerry said:

Nehemiah 9:6 is referring to the third heaven though. Also, God had to create the third heaven, and several passages state that ALL He created was in those six days. It is not like the third heaven has always existed if it was a place made for saved mankind and angels to dwell in.

Right but Nehemiah does not provide a Chronology 

[Jerry]

Not that I am saying I am 100% right in every position I post (though I do strive to be Biblical), if the Bible does speak on something, we should do our best to add up all the passages and arrive at the right conclusion, then adjust our understanding and beliefs of Biblical issues and doctrines as the Scriptures are brought to light.

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

If the Bible teaches something - whether by direct statement, by example, or by precept - then we should base our beliefs and understanding of those issues/passages/etc. on what He has revealed. The opposite is also true: if the Lord has not spoken about something, we should be careful to cling to what He has revealed related to that and hold loosely to any opinions or beliefs that the Bible does not speak on at all.

This part is not addressed to anyone specifically here in this thread, but it is worth noting (to the best of my understanding and memory) that there are NO passages that refer to the angels or what they were doing before creation week (ie. in eternity past). Many have the opinions that they were created and dwelling in Heaven before that point in time (and some who hold to forms of the gap theory teach that the Devil rebelled and was judged before creation week), yet the Bible does not state anything about this time period at all, other than what God is doing (ie. predetermining the plan of salvation and all that it entails). If there are passages that specify or give more light on this theme that I have overlooked, please share them in this thread or others as you come across them.

[Hugh_Flower]

19 hours ago, Jerry said:

Not that I am saying I am 100% right in every position I post (though I do strive to be Biblical), if the Bible does speak on something, we should do our best to add up all the passages and arrive at the right conclusion, then adjust our understanding and beliefs of Biblical issues and doctrines as the Scriptures are brought to light.

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

If the Bible teaches something - whether by direct statement, by example, or by precept - then we should base our beliefs and understanding of those issues/passages/etc. on what He has revealed. The opposite is also true: if the Lord has not spoken about something, we should be careful to cling to what He has revealed related to that and hold loosely to any opinions or beliefs that the Bible does not speak on at all.

This part is not addressed to anyone specifically here in this thread, but it is worth noting (to the best of my understanding and memory) that there are NO passages that refer to the angels or what they were doing before creation week (ie. in eternity past). Many have the opinions that they were created and dwelling in Heaven before that point in time (and some who hold to forms of the gap theory teach that the Devil rebelled and was judged before creation week), yet the Bible does not state anything about this time period at all, other than what God is doing (ie. predetermining the plan of salvation and all that it entails). If there are passages that specify or give more light on this theme that I have overlooked, please share them in this thread or others as you come across them.

I agree, I’ve been taught for awhile ( and it makes sense to me ) that Angels where possibly created between verse 1 and 2, now I know most people won’t want to agree with this but to me it makes the most sense.