KJV 1 (The Rapture)

[Jerry]

Well, Rich, enjoy your very brief time here. With that haughty spirit, you will not fit in very well. It is obvious you are not here to fellowship with us but to show the world how you are right and everyone else is wrong.

1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

As far as only part of the tribulation being a time of God's wrath, you are dead wrong. God says all of it is.

There is more to this passage, but this is the part that is applicable. Compare this with Luke 21 - it is speaking of the same time period, yet over and over Isaiah says it is the day of the Lord and the time of God's wrath - all seven years:

Isaiah 13:6-13 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

[Jerry]

1 hour ago, Richg said:

My brother, that's your first mistake, never use man's book to interpret God's word

Funny, my link was to some videos (yes, there is a book on that page as well, but why not address what is actually posted?).

You want us to accept YOUR WRITINGS, but then you rebuke us because we refer to someone else's writings. Isn't that a little hypocritical on your part? A book (writings, teachings) by man is not wrong in itself. What matters is if it lines up with God's Word or not. David Cloud's book and videos referred to above do, but yours do not.

[Richg]

Well let me ask you a question Jerry, is it not possible that consulting someone else's opinion on a scripture could sway you to lean in an untrue direction ? Like, wanting to believe that you will be gone before the stuff hits the fan ?

[Jerry]

Sure, just as easily as taking your opinion could persuade me to accept wrong beliefs. In the case of the timing of the rapture - I believed in a different position, until I read Isaiah 13 and compared it to Luke 21 - they are talking about the same time period, yet Isaiah clearly says (as I quoted above) that ALL of that time was the wrath of God. The NT in various places says the Lord saves His children from His wrath because of the penalty He bore for their sins.

[Pastor Matt]

3 hours ago, Richg said:

Well let me ask you a question Jerry, is it not possible that consulting someone else's opinion on a scripture could sway you to lean in an untrue direction ? Like, wanting to believe that you will be gone before the stuff hits the fan ?

I have a sincere remark. Instead of using Scripture to answer the questions proposed to you, you instead ask a rebuttal question about the person. To be honest with you, I can care less what Jerry and others believe.....JUST GIVE ME THE BIBLE sir. 

[Richg]

There is more to this passage, but this is the part that is applicable. Compare this with Luke 21 - it is speaking of the same time period, yet over and over Isaiah says it is the day of the Lord and the time of God's wrath - all seven years:

Isaiah 13:6-13 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. Let me ask you a question or two then, why would saved people be terrified at the Lords return, why would men be praying for the rocks to fall on them & kill them, don't sound like Christians to me ? Jesus here is talking to sinners which he punishes in the WRATH, (Rev. ch.'s 8&9, not the tribulation(Rev. ch 6)  as soon as the sum & moon go dark, were out of here, then Gods wrath upon the world (not Christians) will begin !

[Jerry]

Yes, totally. The people freaking out about God's wrath are the unbelievers - specifically those that are already damned to Hell because they received the mark of the beast. Which doesn't disagree with anything I've said here. The true believers of the church age will already be gone before the Lord God pours out His wrath on the earth. Many people will get saved during this time, though those verses are not referring to them.

[Richg]

We're not getting anywhere because you have never answered my original question, tell me why the Bible says AFTER the tribulation of those days (Mark 13:24) (what days? The days he just got through describing for 20 verses) the elect (that's us) will be gathered from the 4 corners of the earth, what, is He picking us up to go to the movies ? If you have to read it & get back with me tomorrow thats fine, but read it first !

[Jerry]

Because what is being referred to happens after that. Hm, I thought you knew all the answers!

However, this:

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

does not automatically equal this: church age saints. This passage is referring to the time of Jacob's trouble (referring to in Jeremiah 30:7) and the elect here are those Jews who get saved during the events of the tribulation. THIS passage (one among several) is referring to the church:

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

And this:

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

And this (primary context is eternal wrath, but God's wrath in the tribulation period also applies):

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

[BrotherTony]

Do you not realize when these things are actually supposed to occur??? I believe you're apply the verses for one event to another. What is your timeline on these events? Scripture with Scripture...what is the breakdown?

[Richg]

I'm going to leave it alone, maybe in the future you will come to the truth, if you can't read mark 13:24 thru 27 and see that this is the rapture then I cant help you, & if Mark 13 is the rapture so is Rev. ch. 6:12, they say the same thing about the stars falling & the moon turning to blood, it could not be clearer !

[Richg]

Not true, I have quoted scripture numerous times on here & I have not attacked anybody, now if trying to share some Biblical truth offends then I'm sorry ! I will be happy to answer any questions you have, scripturally ! Here's an interesting thing I've noticed and is the main reason I started this pre trib conversation, almost every church that teaches a pre trib rapture also teaches that (Gen. Ch. 6) angels fell from Heaven and had sex with women & the Bible never says anything like that, as a matter of fact, in verses 1 thru 4 the words men, daughters and sons of God (saved men) & giants are mentioned but not one mention of a angel or fallen angel. Also most of them believe in the Gap theory, that somehow between Gen. 1-1 or 1-2 there is a gap in which millions of years can be added instead of just believing what the Bible says, that the world is a little over 6000 yrs old, that people can't place the timeline of the dinosaurs is what stumps them but its no problem, they were created when everything else was. 

[Jerry]

And, please enjoy your time under God's wrath - all true church age believers will be gone by that point in time.

P.S. No one on these boards needs a random know-it-all rude person to come here and school us on what we all got wrong. Why not find a "Christian" board that stands on your position and fellowship there instead?

[Jerry]

Again, stop trying to fit all on these boards into your preconceived opinions when you do not know us at all.

Most here (except for maybe a few visitors) would adamantly preach against the gap theory. I cannot speak for any others here on Genesis 6, as this is not an issue I have read any threads on lately, but I personally do not believe that Genesis 6 speaks about fallen angels cohabitating with mankind (for various reasons - sons of God always refers to righteous beings and the angels before any of them fell; there were giants in the earth BEFORE the events of Genesis 6 happened, and even after the flood, so cannot be due to fallen angels; and Jesus states angels do not marry, etc.).

And the Pre-trib position has nothing to do with the gap theory or whatever that other theory is called by you, so are side issues to the issue of the rapture.

[BrotherTony]

28 minutes ago, Richg said:

I'm going to leave it alone, maybe in the future you will come to the truth, if you can't read mark 13:24 thru 27 and see that this is the rapture then I cant help you, & if Mark 13 is the rapture so is Rev. ch. 6:12, they say the same thing about the stars falling & the moon turning to blood, it could not be clearer !

Question...if it "could not be clearer", then how come it isn't so clear to us who have studied this for years? I think you might be able to argue these points on the BaptistBoard.com....just a suggestion.