Why do some believe that the earth is 20K + years old?

[SureWord]

Come on, Jim, give me a thumbs up at least once.

How 'bout..."God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son..."

Jerry, God did destroy the Earth. It's called the Flood. The only difference is there was no Noah to be found among the angels. Also, Lucifer and his angels weren't made in God's image. They never were offered any redemption.

It's still a cool story.

[Jerry]

Cool story?

Why would God destroy a PHYSICAL EARTH because of the actions of some FALLEN SPIRITUAL BEINGS? Doesn't make sense - especially since those beings are still alive and some of them (the ones not yet in Hell) are still wandering around on the earth.

I'm sorry, other than general comments to show how ridiculous some replies are, I will not debate Scripture with a lost man. That is like trying to debate colour with a blind man. He may be convinced black is red in his own mind, but that doesn't make it so.

Again, this is what the Bible says about those who have the indwelling Holy Spirit (ie. those who are trusting Christ and His finished work of redemption alone for salvation):

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

The Holy Spirit opens up the Word of God and teaches those He is indwelling. However, someone who is unsaved will not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them or teaching them. Lord willing, the Holy Spirit will be doing this to them until they respond to the true Gospel of salvation:

John 16:7-8 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Edited November 8, 2021 by Jerry

[Joe Chandler]

On 11/2/2021 at 9:37 PM, MikeWatson1 said:

Bombardment by general news and other media always speaking of long ages is a factor. Its saturation. 

Then you have famous Christians who adhere to God using evolution and they are trusted by many.

 

Just read the Scopes Monkey trial transcripts and watch William Jennings Bryan flounder under the pressure of the science of the day. He tried to make the Bible account fit with the false science instead of standing fast. He died days later. Clarence Darrow once boasted that, "The fear of God is the end of wisdom."

[R Sauter]

On 11/2/2021 at 6:31 AM, BrotherTony said:

I am coming across more and more Christians who believe the Earth is anywhere from 20K to 250 billion years old. What Biblical basis would they possibly have for such beliefs? I could possibly understand the 20K range, but longer? It's highly debatable. I don't understand where they could get such a notion. Any reasonable explanations in your minds?

There are some "Old Earth" creationists out there whom I would disagree but would not break fellowship with them over the matter. Hugh Ross is one such example. He believes in the big bang, that the universe is several billions of years old, and does not hold to a literal six days of creation but he does believe that we are all descended from Adam and that we are dead in sin due to Adam's disobedience. This puts him within bounds of orthodoxy whereas someone holding a "Theistic Evolution" position would be outside the realm of orthodoxy since such a position rejects a literal Adam which completely undermines the necessity of the Gospel of Christ.

Hugh Ross is an astrophysicist who makes a fascinating scientific case regarding how everything in the universe serves a unique purpose and reason for the suitability of life on Planet Earth. He believes it took billions of years for the universe to reach such a point and I guess I'm just a "Dumb Hillbilly for Jesus" who believes that God can speak a fully mature universe into existence instantaneously!

You also have the Scofield Bible reading, Larkin Chart following "Gap Theorists" who claim to believe the King James Bible who would say that the earth is billions of years old due to the "Gap" between Gen 1:1 and 1:2 but I would disagree with them just as I do with Hugh Ross. Hard-core "Ruckmanites" refer to the "Gap Theory" as the "Gap Fact" and they may be willing to go to blows with you over it! I would just concede the matter with them although the actual gap I would be thinking of would be the one between their two ears!

[BrotherTony]

2 hours ago, R Sauter said:

There are some "Old Earth" creationists out there whom I would disagree but would not break fellowship with them over the matter. Hugh Ross is one such example. He believes in the big bang, that the universe is several billions of years old, and does not hold to a literal six days of creation but he does believe that we are all descended from Adam and that we are dead in sin due to Adam's disobedience. This puts him within bounds of orthodoxy whereas someone holding a "Theistic Evolution" position would be outside the realm of orthodoxy since such a position rejects a literal Adam which completely undermines the necessity of the Gospel of Christ.

Hugh Ross is an astrophysicist who makes a fascinating scientific case regarding how everything in the universe serves a unique purpose and reason for the suitability of life on Planet Earth. He believes it took billions of years for the universe to reach such a point and I guess I'm just a "Dumb Hillbilly for Jesus" who believes that God can speak a fully mature universe into existence instantaneously!

You also have the Scofield Bible reading, Larkin Chart following "Gap Theorists" who claim to believe the King James Bible who would say that the earth is billions of years old due to the "Gap" between Gen 1:1 and 1:2 but I would disagree with them just as I do with Hugh Ross. Hard-core "Ruckmanites" refer to the "Gap Theory" as the "Gap Fact" and they may be willing to go to blows with you over it! I would just concede the matter with them although the actual gap I would be thinking of would be the one between their two ears!

I have been called many things recently, from "simpleton" to "dumb hillbilly" because I hold to the Genesis record of creation without a "Gap" between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. As to Ross or Ruckman, I have never been a fan of either, though both present some interesting thoughts.

[SureWord]

I know of a man who was to be ordained to be a preacher but when they found out he believed in a gap between Genesis 1:1-1:2 they refused and had a fallen out with him. Mind you, he still believed in seven literal days of creation after the *gap" and did not believe in evolution but they were so terrified he might be a "Ruckmanite" they wanted nothing to do with him. The gap for him was mostly to have a time for Lucifer's rebellion. 

It never made sense to me that Lucifer was created on Day 1 then was lifted up in pride, led a rebellion with a bunch of angels against the throne of God, had war and was cast out in a 24 hour period (24 hours before the sun was even created). A "Gap" would serve as a time period for this event. Unless you have this occuring after the temptation of Eve but even that seems to be a short period of time.

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by SureWord

[R Sauter]

7 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

I have been called many things recently, from "simpleton" to "dumb hillbilly" because I hold to the Genesis record of creation without a "Gap" between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. As to Ross or Ruckman, I have never been a fan of either, though both present some interesting thoughts.

Let's just make it clear that I was calling myself a "Dumb Hillbilly" but tongue in cheek! 

The "Gap Theory" has been around for a while and even promoted by good men like RA Torrey that we certainly wouldn't want to dismiss. I have a great deal of respect for Hugh Ross and he is indeed an intellectual giant. I watched a debate between him and Eric Hovind where Hovind looked like a Hovind looked like a petulant child in comparison. Jason Lisle is far more of Ross's equal.

[BrotherTony]

19 minutes ago, R Sauter said:

Let's just make it clear that I was calling myself a "Dumb Hillbilly" but tongue in cheek! 

The "Gap Theory" has been around for a while and even promoted by good men like RA Torrey that we certainly wouldn't want to dismiss. I have a great deal of respect for Hugh Ross and he is indeed an intellectual giant. I watched a debate between him and Eric Hovind where Hovind looked like a Hovind looked like a petulant child in comparison. Jason Lisle is far more of Ross's equal.

Kent Hovind, Eric's dad, grew up in the area where I was raised, and was a pastor of the Bethel Baptist Church of Pekin Illinois for a while. His father owned a realty company there. I've never, to my knowledge, met Eric Hovind. I agree with your assessment of that debate. I've read quite a bit from Torrey and like a lot of what he wrote. My father was one who believed in the Gap Theory. It wasn't a popular position to hold in our church. 

[R Sauter]

3 hours ago, SureWord said:

I know of a man who was to be ordained to be a preacher but when they found out he believed in a gap between Genesis 1:1-1:2 they refused and had a fallen out with him. Mind you, he still believed in seven literal days of creation after the *gap" and did not believe in evolution but they were so terrified he might be a "Ruckmanite" they wanted nothing to do with him. The gap for him was mostly to have a time for Lucifer's rebellion. 

It never made sense to me that Lucifer was created on Day 1 then was lifted up in pride, led a rebellion with a bunch of angels against the throne of God, had war and was cast out in a 24 hour period (24 hours before the sun was even created). A "Gap" would serve as a time period for this event. Unless you have this occuring after the temptation of Eve but even that seems to be a short period of time.

 

And herein is the epitome of the lunacy in many of the IFB circles (and yes, the SBC is not much better at times)! The "Gap Theory" is not a core essential doctrine which defines Christian orthodoxy. It is not even a matter in which one should get themselves bent out of shape over! Mankind being "IN ADAM" and therefore dead in sin due to Adam's transgression is a key essential and foundational to everything that follows. Even Richard Dawkins acknowledges this and has brought this up to any professing Christian who also believes in evolution. I would therefore regard any "Theistic Evolutionist" as being outside the realm of orthodoxy and not someone I would ordain or even allow to teach a children's Sunday school class!

According to my understanding of Job 38:7, all of the "Heavenly hosts" (angels, cherubim, Etc.) were in existence and present as God performed his work of creation. Perhaps they were created immediately prior to or at some indeterminable amount of time previously? Furthermore, what was the period of time between the creation and the temptation and fall of Adam? We cannot tell nor should we form a dogmatic position over this. I guess we could also cloud things up further by acknowledging that Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are prophesies against the kings of Babylon and Tyre respectively? I wrote an extensive paper on the Doctrine of Satan in one of my Systematic Theology classes but still haven't got the matter settled.

[BrotherTony]

23 minutes ago, R Sauter said:

And herein is the epitome of the lunacy in many of the IFB circles (and yes, the SBC is not much better at times)! The "Gap Theory" is not a core essential doctrine which defines Christian orthodoxy. It is not even a matter in which one should get themselves bent out of shape over! Mankind being "IN ADAM" and therefore dead in sin due to Adam's transgression is a key essential and foundational to everything that follows. Even Richard Dawkins acknowledges this and has brought this up to any professing Christian who also believes in evolution. I would therefore regard any "Theistic Evolutionist" as being outside the realm of orthodoxy and not someone I would ordain or even allow to teach a children's Sunday school class!

According to my understanding of Job 38:7, all of the "Heavenly hosts" (angels, cherubim, Etc.) were in existence and present as God performed his work of creation. Perhaps they were created immediately prior to or at some indeterminable amount of time previously? Furthermore, what was the period of time between the creation and the temptation and fall of Adam? We cannot tell nor should we form a dogmatic position over this. I guess we could also cloud things up further by acknowledging that Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are prophesies against the kings of Babylon and Tyre respectively? I wrote an extensive paper on the Doctrine of Satan in one of my Systematic Theology classes but still haven't got the matter settled.

I have to agree that there's no way of knowing when the angels/heavenly hosts, including Lucifer were created. Personally, I find it questionable that they were made Day 1 of creation and fell shortly thereafter. Questions that have lingered since my Christian highschool days were whether the days of creation were literal 24 hour days. There's nothing in stone stating that they were, and they could have been anywhere from the 24 hours we now know as a day, , or weeks, months, years, or even eons. We simply don't know. God is not limited by our understanding of time. We don't know how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, but we do have an indication that they were there after the 7 days, because God said that everything was "very good." Could it be that time as we know it began AFTER the fall? TBH, anything is possible.

[Jerry]

The Gap Theory is heresy, plain and simple - it is disbelieving or adding to the early chapters of Genesis, which is the foundation of our whole Bible and lays the groundwork for our faith.

For consideration:

Job 38:4-7 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest?
or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?
or who laid the corner stone thereof;
When the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The laying of the foundations of the earth was not on day one - but day three when God separated the land and the sea. This passage also gives the same order of events:

Psalms 104:2-5 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment:
who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters:
who maketh the clouds his chariot:
who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
Who maketh his angels spirits;
his ministers a flaming fire:
Who laid the foundations of the earth,
that it should not be removed for ever.

The creation of light (day one), the stretching out of the firmament (day two), the creation of angels, the laying of the foundations of the earth (day three). And that is what the passage of Job parallels. The angels were created shortly before ir on day three - but before the foundations of the earth were laid, as they ALL rejoiced at it. None had fallen yet. This is also seen in the Lord God calling the all His finished creation (those six days) very good.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Also, all the angels were created to minister to saved mankind; therefore, there would be no need to have them created before God created our world/universe.

Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Another point, the third heaven (where angels dwell in the presence of God) did not exist before day one:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

That is referring to the first heaven, our atmosphere (where birds would fly/dwell), which is developed further on day two. Day four shows the second heaven, outer space, where the sun, moon, and stars are. According to Hebrews 9:24, the third heaven is where the presence of God dwells, which the NT also refers to as Paradise (after the resurrection of Christ).

[Jerry]

That’s one thing I noticed about many men of Torrey’s generation, they were trying to fit in too much with the higher critics of their day - acceptance of Bible changes/modern versions and some higher criticism, acceptance of forms of evolution (day age theory, gap theory, etc.). Trying to read The Fundamentals is tough reading because of all the junk they accept or are willing to tolerate to meet the higher critics on “their ground.”

I truly believe they (ie. those fundamentalists - and I am a die-hard fundamentalist of the faith and of the Bible) are a big part of why modern Christendom is in such a mess. They believed the fundamentals but willingly tolerated error or mixed in with those crowds, then the following generations accepted and embraced the error the previous generation just acknowledged - ie. they took the sin and compromise just a bit further, then the next generation took it even further, and so on.

[TheGloryLand]

I asked Siri, how old the Earth is and she told me that it was 4.5 billion years old. just a little older than that fruitcake, I just ate.

[SureWord]

On 12/20/2023 at 11:39 AM, R Sauter said:

And herein is the epitome of the lunacy in many of the IFB circles (and yes, the SBC is not much better at times)! The "Gap Theory" is not a core essential doctrine which defines Christian orthodoxy. It is not even a matter in which one should get themselves bent out of shape over! Mankind being "IN ADAM" and therefore dead in sin due to Adam's transgression is a key essential and foundational to everything that follows. Even Richard Dawkins acknowledges this and has brought this up to any professing Christian who also believes in evolution. I would therefore regard any "Theistic Evolutionist" as being outside the realm of orthodoxy and not someone I would ordain or even allow to teach a children's Sunday school class!

According to my understanding of Job 38:7, all of the "Heavenly hosts" (angels, cherubim, Etc.) were in existence and present as God performed his work of creation. Perhaps they were created immediately prior to or at some indeterminable amount of time previously? Furthermore, what was the period of time between the creation and the temptation and fall of Adam? We cannot tell nor should we form a dogmatic position over this. I guess we could also cloud things up further by acknowledging that Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are prophesies against the kings of Babylon and Tyre respectively? I wrote an extensive paper on the Doctrine of Satan in one of my Systematic Theology classes but still haven't got the matter settled.

As I recall he didn't even mention it but when they got wind of it they asked him and that was that. I guess they were so afraid he was a "Ruckmanite" they wanted nothing to do with him. I don't believe he even knew of Ruckman except by name. 

[R Sauter]

3 hours ago, SureWord said:

As I recall he didn't even mention it but when they got wind of it they asked him and that was that. I guess they were so afraid he was a "Ruckmanite" they wanted nothing to do with him. I don't believe he even knew of Ruckman except by name. 

Kinda begs the question regarding how "Independent" these so-called Independent Baptists are doesn't it? They are so afraid of what their buddies think and it would likely jeopardize a few "bookings" if word got out they may be running around with the wrong crowd!

And on that note, I guess I really have to admire an old pastor of mine: Jack Wood from Houston Texas! Regarding this very same subject, he once told declared from his pulpit "Ain't none of your business who I run with! I'll run with a cur dog if I want to!" Now those were some words from a genuine Independent Baptist!

My experience in IFB comes from the Ruckmanite crowd, the Hyles crowd, and a few others. I spent a few years in what is likely the most influential of IFB churches today and the pastor of that church always kept a wary eye on me thinking I actually was a Ruckmanite or something! All of my Ruckman commentaries ended up in the circular file along with all of Jack Hyles's material. As a SBC Deacon, I am more "Independent," more "Fundamental," and more "Baptist" than ever - and twice as ornery to boot!

On 12/20/2023 at 11:52 AM, Jerry said:

The Gap Theory is heresy, plain and simple - it is disbelieving or adding to the early chapters of Genesis, which is the foundation of our whole Bible and lays the groundwork for our faith.

For consideration:

Job 38:4-7 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest?
or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?
or who laid the corner stone thereof;
When the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The laying of the foundations of the earth was not on day one - but day three when God separated the land and the sea. This passage also gives the same order of events:

Psalms 104:2-5 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment:
who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters:
who maketh the clouds his chariot:
who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
Who maketh his angels spirits;
his ministers a flaming fire:
Who laid the foundations of the earth,
that it should not be removed for ever.

The creation of light (day one), the stretching out of the firmament (day two), the creation of angels, the laying of the foundations of the earth (day three). And that is what the passage of Job parallels. The angels were created shortly before ir on day three - but before the foundations of the earth were laid, as they ALL rejoiced at it. None had fallen yet. This is also seen in the Lord God calling the all His finished creation (those six days) very good.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Also, all the angels were created to minister to saved mankind; therefore, there would be no need to have them created before God created our world/universe.

Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Another point, the third heaven (where angels dwell in the presence of God) did not exist before day one:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

That is referring to the first heaven, our atmosphere (where birds would fly/dwell), which is developed further on day two. Day four shows the second heaven, outer space, where the sun, moon, and stars are. According to Hebrews 9:24, the third heaven is where the presence of God dwells, which the NT also refers to as Paradise (after the resurrection of Christ).

I'm really careful regarding how and where I invoke the "Heresy" moniker these days! Is it truly heresy or is just something in which myself and another may have a few differences of opinion? I will reserve "Heretic," "Apostate" and "Reprobate" to those who truly deserve it. IFB types would likely call you a heretic if your eschatological view doesn't perfectly align with yours (after he looks up and finds out what that fancy theological word "eschatological" means).

I don't think I have heard anyone make such a correlation between Job 38 and the Genesis account of creation. Not saying I agree or disagree but if I came to a differing conclusion, I wouldn't consider you a heretic. My point is that God was obviously not alone as he laid the foundation of the earth was he?

Some thoughts to ponder though: we both agree God said "Let there be light" on the first day but what is the source of this light and how could one use this light to measure the span of a day if it were not the sun which was supposedly created on the fourth day?