Church businesses …

[TheGloryLand]

18 minutes ago, SureWord said:

I've never experienced this. I know in one church I was a member of the pastor tried to use a little politics among the members during private conversations to get Mr. Money Bags elected as a new deacon but everything still was brought before the whole congregation for a vote. 

His politicking didn't work.

Nice I remember one time we were going to vote on raising the pastors salary, but during the vote he was sitting there. I ask why is he here listening to this? Then I found out that the decision was already made too.  This is my point, why are we voting.

[BrotherTony]

12 minutes ago, E Morales said:

Nice I remember one time we were going to vote on raising the pastors salary, but during the vote he was sitting there. I ask why is he here listening to this? Then I found out that the decision was already made too.  This is my point, why are we voting.

In the churches I've been a member of, it's ALWAYS been UNETHICAL for a pastor to stay when people are voting on something like this. And anytime the pastor was present at the beginning of the business meeting on such an item, he was asked politely to leave...in the many churches my wife and I have been in over the years, we have NEVER experienced a pastor sitting through such a vote. I'm not saying this DIDN'T happen where you were/are attending. It's possible, as all churches are different.

[TheGloryLand]

43 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

In the churches I've been a member of, it's ALWAYS been UNETHICAL for a pastor to stay when people are voting on something like this. And anytime the pastor was present at the beginning of the business meeting on such an item, he was asked politely to leave...in the many churches my wife and I have been in over the years, we have NEVER experienced a pastor sitting through such a vote. I'm not saying this DIDN'T happen where you were/are attending. It's possible, as all churches are different.

Yes sir, I guess for another topic, I can add all those pastors that knows what members are tithing, but this would be for another subject.

[HappyChristian]

In our church, we basically know what's going to be on the agenda of any given meeting. My husband meets with the men the week prior to our all-church meeting, to discuss the financial report and any other issues (like taking on missionaries). Then, when it is presented to the church, the men's recommendations are mentioned. Discussion is held, and we vote. Majority takes the vote (only one time do I remember not having a unanimous vote). That is the way our constitution states for us to hold meetings, so that's the way we do it.

The members of our church have given my husband a certain latitude in decision making (certain amount of $ he can spend without the church voting on it, for example). But he is very, very careful to be responsible and transparent about things and not be a bossy-pants.  My husband usually does leave the meeting during discussion of his salary (or gifts that the members have discussed wanting to give him). Three years ago, the members voted to raise his salary every January, but due to covid ravaging our membership (no, nobody has gotten it...but we've lost a good number of folks due to the fear of it), he told the church he would rather not receive a raise this year.  Members discussed it and agreed to not raising his salary - but it was the church's decision. Under his suggestion, yes, but we decided, not him.  Same with the car the church bought him - he went on record that he didn't want the church to do so, and he abstained from the vote. But the church bought it anyway (it's actually the church's car, bought for him to use, so if God moved him on the car would go back to the church)

He does make the decisions as to what happens in the pulpit, what kind of music we sing, etc. Because that is the pastor's job...but, again, his duties and responsibilities are clear in our constitution. 

 

[TheGloryLand]

2 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

In our church, we basically know what's going to be on the agenda of any given meeting. My husband meets with the men the week prior to our all-church meeting, to discuss the financial report and any other issues (like taking on missionaries). Then, when it is presented to the church, the men's recommendations are mentioned. Discussion is held, and we vote. Majority takes the vote (only one time do I remember not having a unanimous vote). That is the way our constitution states for us to hold meetings, so that's the way we do it.

The members of our church have given my husband a certain latitude in decision making (certain amount of $ he can spend without the church voting on it, for example). But he is very, very careful to be responsible and transparent about things and not be a bossy-pants.  My husband usually does leave the meeting during discussion of his salary (or gifts that the members have discussed wanting to give him). Three years ago, the members voted to raise his salary every January, but due to covid ravaging our membership (no, nobody has gotten it...but we've lost a good number of folks due to the fear of it), he told the church he would rather not receive a raise this year.  Members discussed it and agreed to not raising his salary - but it was the church's decision. Under his suggestion, yes, but we decided, not him.  Same with the car the church bought him - he went on record that he didn't want the church to do so, and he abstained from the vote. But the church bought it anyway (it's actually the church's car, bought for him to use, so if God moved him on the car would go back to the church)

He does make the decisions as to what happens in the pulpit, what kind of music we sing, etc. Because that is the pastor's job...but, again, his duties and responsibilities are clear in our constitution. 

 

Thank you for replying and I am happy everything is working well in your church with your husband leading by example. But I personally do not believe that the churches should not be in the pastor or pastors, financially controlled. let me explain, a church should not be paying to the pastors rent, house or light bill, telephone bill, taxes, cell phone, anything that you and I as a normal person would pay as a citizen.  I believe that the church which is the members, should not pay for anything at all, for the Pastor but let me say this also, the pastor is worthy of his wages and should be paid very well for what he does. Not the church paying his personal bills. If the pastor is getting paid well, the church does not need to pay for all the other things and more that I mentioned above.

Gifts are welcome like a car, that you mentioned or a well deserved vacation trip with his family. 
 

I would love my job to pay me minimum wage, and that they would pay all and everything else for me. But this will be breaking the law by not paying Taxes.

[BrotherTony]

29 minutes ago, E Morales said:

Thank you for replying and I am happy everything is working well in your church with your husband leading by example. But I personally do not believe that the churches should not be in the pastor or pastors, financially controlled. let me explain, a church should not be paying to the pastors rent, house or light bill, telephone bill, taxes, cell phone, anything that you and I as a normal person would pay as a citizen.  I believe that the church which is the members, should not pay for anything at all, for the Pastor but let me say this also, the pastor is worthy of his wages and should be paid very well for what he does. Not the church paying his personal bills. If the pastor is getting paid well, the church does not need to pay for all the other things and more that I mentioned above.

Gifts are welcome like a car, that you mentioned or a well deserved vacation trip with his family. 
 

I would love my job to pay me minimum wage, and that they would pay all and everything else for me. But this will be breaking the law by not paying Taxes.

I think it's up to every church, as autonomous bodies (cells) within the body of Christ, to decide for themselves how they will pay their pastor, not on some preconceived notions that somebody has. Each body is free to decide for themselves how to pay their pastor, whether it's just paying him a salary, or giving him other perks. I know in the Missionary Baptist church we were in, the pastor to $300 per week salary, but the church also paid for his electric, water, insurance and phone. We had many members who didn't like this arrangement because the pastor would run off from the house leaving all the lights on, or would leave the water running to fill the above ground pool in the back yard, or would increase the auto insurance rates through auto accidents. It got to be where several members left. They basically had no say in what was going in their eyes because many of the men who were deacons were either related directly or indirectly to the pastor, and they would always vote to support his being there and his pay/perks. Still, it was the churches decision. The members didn't fight to overturn this...instead they just walked away and went elsewhere.

[TheGloryLand]

1 hour ago, BrotherTony said:

I think it's up to every church, as autonomous bodies (cells) within the body of Christ, to decide for themselves how they will pay their pastor, not on some preconceived notions that somebody has. Each body is free to decide for themselves how to pay their pastor, whether it's just paying him a salary, or giving him other perks. I know in the Missionary Baptist church we were in, the pastor to $300 per week salary, but the church also paid for his electric, water, insurance and phone. We had many members who didn't like this arrangement because the pastor would run off from the house leaving all the lights on, or would leave the water running to fill the above ground pool in the back yard, or would increase the auto insurance rates through auto accidents. It got to be where several members left. They basically had no say in what was going in their eyes because many of the men who were deacons were either related directly or indirectly to the pastor, and they would always vote to support his being there and his pay/perks. Still, it was the churches decision. The members didn't fight to overturn this...instead they just walked away and went elsewhere.

Yes, every church does has its own way on how too, but Pay/Perks are ways of not paying their fair part of taxes. Also controlling the pastors in my humble opinion.

Edited October 2, 2021 by E Morales

[BrotherTony]

12 minutes ago, E Morales said:

Yes, every church does has its own way on how too, but Pay/Perks are ways of not paying their fair part of taxes. Also controlling the pastors in my humble opinion.

Still, that is between the church and the pastors. If the people of the church want it that way, it IS the church THEY attend and help shape policy on. So, it shouldn't be a problem to you at all since it really doesn't affect your life or the church you attend.

[TheGloryLand]

24 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

Still, that is between the church and the pastors. If the people of the church want it that way, it IS the church THEY attend and help shape policy on. So, it shouldn't be a problem to you at all since it really doesn't affect your life or the church you attend.

I remember many years ago I worked for a carpet store and the customer asked to sell person, which one do  you think I should get, and the sales person told her ma’am it is easy for me to spend your money. And it is easy, is it my problem you ask, yes it is if I am paying ties and offering.

[BrotherTony]

2 minutes ago, E Morales said:

I remember many years ago I worked for a carpet store and the customer asked to sell person, which one do  you think I should get, and the sales person told her ma’am it is easy for me to spend your money. And it is easy, is it my problem you ask, yes it is if I am paying ties and offering.

You've never clarified whether it was your church or not. So, is it? Seems you have a lot of negative feelings about the church if it is. Have you ever considered that the problem may well be you, and not the church? Not judging, just asking. It's a fair and reasonable action considering the threads you've been posting.

[TheGloryLand]

1 hour ago, BrotherTony said:

You've never clarified whether it was your church or not. So, is it? Seems you have a lot of negative feelings about the church if it is. Have you ever considered that the problem may well be you, and not the church? Not judging, just asking. It's a fair and reasonable action considering the threads you've been posting.

Everything is okay no problem with my church or yours. Things I notice through out the years and have seen. It take many years for members to see sometimes, the right and wrongs, not only in their life, but in the church. Have a nice weekend

[BrotherTony]

1 hour ago, E Morales said:

Everything is okay no problem with my church or yours. Things I notice through out the years and have seen. It take many years for members to see sometimes, the right and wrongs, not only in their life, but in the church. Have a nice weekend

Not a problem, @E Morales. You have a fine weekend as well.

[Pastorj]

On 9/29/2021 at 6:42 AM, PastorMatt said:

Would you say it is more prevalent down south than up north, or about the same?

I would say it is very common all over based on where the Pastor went to college

On 10/2/2021 at 5:42 AM, E Morales said:

Thank you for replying and I am happy everything is working well in your church with your husband leading by example. But I personally do not believe that the churches should not be in the pastor or pastors, financially controlled. let me explain, a church should not be paying to the pastors rent, house or light bill, telephone bill, taxes, cell phone, anything that you and I as a normal person would pay as a citizen.  I believe that the church which is the members, should not pay for anything at all, for the Pastor but let me say this also, the pastor is worthy of his wages and should be paid very well for what he does. Not the church paying his personal bills. If the pastor is getting paid well, the church does not need to pay for all the other things and more that I mentioned above.

Gifts are welcome like a car, that you mentioned or a well deserved vacation trip with his family. 
 

I would love my job to pay me minimum wage, and that they would pay all and everything else for me. But this will be breaking the law by not paying Taxes.

The difference is that the IRS has specific rules for clergy. A Pastor doesn't have to pay any taxes on anything part of a housing allowance,  which covers a lot

[TheGloryLand]

1 hour ago, Pastorj said:

I would say it is very common all over based on where the Pastor went to college

The difference is that the IRS has specific rules for clergy. A Pastor doesn't have to pay any taxes on anything part of a housing allowance,  which covers a lot

I have two questions, why do churches get in the business of providing benefits packages, like a home to live, free rent, auto, pay their smartphone, gas, travel and more, to preachers. I am not taking about regular things like vacation time, healthcare, but everything else.

Why don’t churches just pay only a well and fair flat rate salary to the pastor or preachers, nothing else.  
 

Thanks

[BrotherTony]

1 hour ago, E Morales said:

I have two questions, why do churches get in the business of providing benefits packages, like a home to live, free rent, auto, pay their smartphone, gas, travel and more, to preachers. I am not taking about regular things like vacation time, healthcare, but everything else.

Why don’t churches just pay only a well and fair flat rate salary to the pastor or preachers, nothing else.  
 

Thanks

Because, AGAIN, it's up to every AUTONOMOUS church to decide for themselves what to pay their pastors. It's not up to us on a virtual board to try and dictate their terms to a possible or present pastor. I don't agree that pastors shouldn't have more than just a salary, no matter how large it is, UNLESS THE CHURCH agrees and said pastor/candidate agree to those terms.

Edited October 3, 2021 by BrotherTony