Does the Rapture of the Church happen Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, or Post Tribulation?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On 8/17/2021 at 11:38 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Is the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" the same event as the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"? 

Do we have some indicator throughout the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 for viewing the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" as occurring at a different time than the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"?

Is the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" the same as "the day of Christ," or are these two different events?

Is the revelation-event of the man of sin the same as this blasphemy-event by the man of sin, or are they two different events in the prophetic time-line?

Who is this "he" which holds back (withholds) the revelation of the man of sin?

In my previous posting, I concluded with the above questions for consideration.  In this posting I wish to engage the fourth of these questions - Is the revelation-event of the man of sin the same as the blasphemy-event of the man of sin?

According to my understanding of Revelation 12 - 13, I would hold that the blasphemy-event of the man of sin will occur at the middle point of the seven year Tribulation Period.

On the other hand, I would contend that the revelation-event of the man of sin is to be located on the prophetic timeline at the begging point of the seven year Tribulation Period.  I would base this position on the teaching of Daniel 9:27 - "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."  I would hold that the "week" in this verse is a sequence of seven, particularly seven years.  Thus I would hold that this "week" is the seven year Tribulation Period.  In accord with this I would hold that the consummation of this seven year period will be the "Revelation-Coming of Christ as per Revelation 19:11-16 and the destruction-event of the man of sin as per Revelation 19:20.  Furthermore, I would hold that middle of this seven year period, wherein this one will "cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease" and will make desolate the covenant "for the overspreading of abomination," is the blasphemy-event by the man of sin, wherein he will set in God's own temple in Jerusalem, claiming himself to be God.  Finally, I would hold that the beginning of this seven year period, wherein this one will "confirm the covenant with many for one week," is to be viewed as the revelation-event of the man of sin.  I would contend that he is brought to revelation specifically by confirming "the covenant" with the Jews for one "week" (a seven year period), thus allowing the Jews to initiate the sacrifices and oblations of God's covenant.  Indeed, I would contend that this event will be the specific beginning for the seven year Tribulation Period.  Even so, I would hold that the first horseman of Revelation 6, as presented in Revelation 6:1-2, is the man of sin, the antichrist, himself.

With this understanding I can now present the ordering of prophetic events from 2 Thessalonians 2 more clearly, as follows:

1.  A "falling away."
2.  The "withholder" himself is "taken out of the way."
3.  The revelation of the "man of sin," "the son of perdition" - The beginning of the seven year Tribulation Period.
4.  The blasphemy by the "man of sin," "the son of perdition" - The middle of the seven year Tribulation Period.
5.  The "day of Christ," "the Revelation-Coming of Christ" - The destruction of the "man of sin," "the son of perdition" - The conclusion of the seven year Tribulation Period.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On 8/17/2021 at 11:38 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Is the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" the same event as the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"? 

Do we have some indicator throughout the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 for viewing the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" as occurring at a different time than the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"?

Is the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" the same as "the day of Christ," or are these two different events?

Is the revelation-event of the man of sin the same as this blasphemy-event by the man of sin, or are they two different events in the prophetic time-line?

Who is this "he" which holds back (withholds) the revelation of the man of sin?

Hmmm. I am starting to wonder if I am talking into the air to myself here lately.

Nevertheless, in my previous posting I handled the fourth of the above questions.  In this posting I wish to engage the fifth of the above questions - Who is this "he" which holds back (withholds) the revelation of the man of sin?

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8a states, "And now ye know what withholdeth that he [the "man of sin" from verse 3] might be revealed in his time.  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [withholdeth] will let [withhold], until he be taken out of the way.  And then shall that Wicked be revealed . . . ."  Herein we learn a number of truths concerning the "Withholder" in relation to the "man of sin" -

1.  The "Withholder," who is a singular "he," is holding back the revelation of the "man of sin" until "his time."
2.  "The mystery of iniquity" is involved in the bringing forth the "man of sin."
3.  "The mystery of iniquity" was already at work in the first century of the church age, and has continued at work since the first century of the church age unto the present.
4.  The one reason that "the mystery of iniquity" has not yet brought forth the "man of sin" is because the "Withholder" is still holding back his revelation.
5.  The "Withholder" shall continue to oppose the "mystery of iniquity" and hold back the revelation of the "man of sin" until "he be taken out of the way."
6.  As soon as the "Withholder" is taken out the way, "then shall the Wicked [man of sin] be revealed."

Thus we observe a relationship between three elements - between "the mystery of iniquity," the "man of sin," and the "Witholder" who opposes "they mystery of iniquity" and the revelation of the "man of sin."  So, do we have any other passages of Scripture that present a similar relationship?  I believe that we have two - 1 John 2:18-ff and 1 John 4:1-4.

1 John 2:18 states, "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist [singular] shall come, even now are there many antichrists [plural]; whereby we know that it is the last time."  I would contend that the singular antichrist from 1 John 2:18 , who shall come some time in the future, is Biblically the same as the "man of sin, the son of perdition," who shall be "revealed in his time," from 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.  Even so also, I would contend that the many plural antichrists from 1 John 2:18, who are "even now" already among us, are Biblically equivalent to "the mystery of iniquity" from 2 Thessalonians 2:7, which "doth already work" among us.

1 John 4:3 states, "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."  I would contend that the "spirit of antichrist" that "should come" in the future is a reference to the coming of the singular antichrist, as per 1 John 2:18, and the revelation of the "man of sin," as per 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12.  Even so also, I would contend that the "spirit of antichrist" that is "even now already . . . in the world" is Biblically equivalent to the many plural antichrists who are "even now" among us, as per 1 John 2:18, and to "the mystery of iniquity" that "doth already work" among us, as per 2 Thessalonians 2:7.

Thus I would contend for the following Biblical equivalencies from the three passages:

1.  The antichrist = the man of sin = the son of perdition -- who shall come/be revealed in the future.
2.  The many antichrists = the spirit of antichrist = the mystery of iniquity -- which is even now already at work.

Yet why is this of significance?  2 Thessalonians teaches us that there is a "Withholder" who is presently opposing and holding back "the mystery of iniquity" from bringing in the "man of sin" at the present time, until that "Withholder" is "taken out of the way."  Thus we may ask if 1 John 2:18-ff and/or 1 John 4:1-4 reveals who this singular "Withholder" might be.  Do either of these passages reveal anything about anyone who stands in opposition to the many antichrists of the spirit of antichrist that is even now already working?  I would contend that the answer is "yes."

1 John 2:18-20 states, "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.  They [the antichrists] went out from us, but they [the antichrists] were not of us; for if they [the antichrists] had been of us, they [the antichrists] would no doubt have continued with us: but they [the antichrists] went out, that they [the antichrists] might be made manifest that they [the antichrists] were not all of us.  But [in contrast to the many antichrists] ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things."  Even so, we learn that the spiritual power which stands in opposition to the spirit of antichrist, "the mystery of iniquity," is the "unction" that we have received "from the Holy One."  So then, what is this "unction?"  In 1 John 2:26-27 some answer is given, "These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.  But the anointing [the same Greek word as is translated "unction" in 1 John 2:20] which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."  Even so, this "unction" that we have received "from the Holy One" abides within us believers, is our teacher of all truth, is itself truth and no lie, and specifically teaches us how to abide in the Holy One, our Lord Jesus Christ.  To me this sound like the indwelling Holy Spirit of God.

Furthermore, 1 John 4:1- states, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets [many antichrists] are gone out into the world.  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.  Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them [the false prophets/antichrists]: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world."  Even so, we learn that He who opposes the spirit of antichrist which is "even now already" at work "in the world" is "the Spirit of God."  Furthermore, we learn that we believers at present are able to overcome this "spirit of antichrist" specifically because the Holy Spirit of God who dwells in us is greater than the spirit of antichrist that dwells in the world.

Thus I would contend for the following addition to the Biblical equivalencies of these passages:

1.  The antichrist = the man of sin = the son of perdition -- who shall come/be revealed in the future.
2.  The many antichrists = the spirit of antichrist = the mystery of iniquity -- which is even now already at work.
3.  The unction/anointing that we have received from the Holy One = the indwelling Spirit of God = the Withholder.

Yet I would emphasize a particular aspect of this point.  The "Withholder" is NOT simply the Holy Spirit of God in general, but is specifically the Holy Spirit of God as our "Anointing," as the "Indweller" of New Testament believers.  Both 1 John 2:20-ff and 1 John 4:4 emphasize this characteristic of the Holy Spirit as the Anointing who dwells IN US.  (Note: This point will be a significance when we come to the other three questions concerning 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.)

[SureWord]

What is the "falling away"? It seems to be a mass, sudden departure from the Lord not a slow descent into apostasy. I could be wrong about that but that's the sense I get.

I think of John 6:66 where a large swath of disciples departed from the Lord and then Satan possessed the type of the son of Perdition, i.e. Judas Iscariot. Interestingly, it was what the Lord himself said about eating his flesh and drinking his blood, something they couldn't grasp spiritually, that caused the apostasy.

I know that Christian will no longer endure sound doctrine but I wonder if there's something else to it.

 

[Jim_Alaska]

Brother Scott, please rest assured that you are not talking into the air on this subject and as I read your thoughtful comments on this subject, I have to say that I agree with them in total. And this is not in agreement just because you brought it out, this has been my understanding for many years.

Though I say this has been my understanding, I have to say that you have laid it out in a much easier manner to understand than I ever could. I have always believed the underlying point that The Holy Spirit is the "witholder", but lacked the expertise to elaborate on it in the manner in which you have.

Thank you for clarity of mind and explanation.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On 8/17/2021 at 11:38 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Is the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" the same event as the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"? 

Do we have some indicator throughout the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 for viewing the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" as occurring at a different time than the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"?

Is the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" the same as "the day of Christ," or are these two different events?

Is the revelation-event of the man of sin the same as this blasphemy-event by the man of sin, or are they two different events in the prophetic time-line?

Who is this "he" which holds back (withholds) the revelation of the man of sin?

In my previous two postings, I have handled to last two questions on this list.  In this posting I wish to engage the first three questions on this list.  Since I have indicated my position in an earlier posting that the "Revelation-Coming of Christ" and "the day of Christ" are the same event, I can merge the first and third questions above - Is the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" the same as the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"/"the day of Christ," or are these two different events?  In order to answer this question, we really need to answer the second question above - Do we have some indicator throughout the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 for viewing the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" as occurring at a different time than the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"/"the day of Christ"?  (Note: If we do not, then I would be compelled to concede that the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" and the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"/"the day of Christ" are one and the same, and that they occur at the end of the seven year Tribulation Period.)

In answer, I believe that we do have such an indicator.  As we have noted, according to the teaching of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8 the "Withholder" must be "taken out of the way" first in order for the "man of sin" to be "revealed in his time."  Even so, in my previous posting I have presented the reasons why I hold that the "Withholder" is specifically the Holy Spirit of God as our "Anointing," as the "Indweller" of New Testament believers.  Thus for this "Withholder" to be "taken out of the way," at that event the Holy Spirit would cease to be the continual "Indweller"/"Anointing" for all believers.  This would NOT necessitate that the Holy Spirit would cease to exist and work among mankind upon the earth.  Rather, it would mean that He would cease to indwell believers from the moment of conversion unto the moment of death.  From that moment the working of the Holy Spirit among mankind would be like that of the Old Testament time period, rather than that of the New Testament church age.

Now, there seem to be two ways in which this "taken out of the way" might occur.  On the one hand, the first possibility is that the Holy Spirit would be removed from New Testament believers as their Indweller, but the New Testament believers would remain on the earth.  However, this possibility would seem to stand in contradiction with the teaching of the New Testament concerning the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit for New Testament believers, as per John 14:16-17, Ephesians 1:13-14, etc.  On the other hand, the second possibility is that the Holy Spirit as the Indweller of New Testament believers would be removed from the earth specifically because all New Testament believers would themselves be removed from the earth.  So then, is there any event presented in God's Word wherein all New Testament believers are removed from the earth?  Yes, for it would seem that the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" would fulfill this occurrence.  Even so, if this is a correct thought process and understanding, then the event wherein the "Withholder" (the Holy Spirit of God as the Anointing/Indweller of New Testament believers) is "taken out of the way" is Biblically equivalent to the "Rapture-Coming of Christ." 

As such, the ordering of prophetic events from 2 Thessalonians 2 would now be as follows:

1.  A "falling away."
2.  The "withholder" himself is "taken out of the way" - "the Rapture-Coming of Christ."
3.  The revelation of the "man of sin," "the son of perdition" - The beginning of the seven year Tribulation Period.
4.  The blasphemy by the "man of sin," "the son of perdition" - The middle of the seven year Tribulation Period.
5.  The "day of Christ," "the Revelation-Coming of Christ" - The destruction of the "man of sin," "the son of perdition" - The conclusion of the seven year Tribulation Period.

According to this understanding, we do indeed have some indicator throughout the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 for viewing the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" as occurring at a different time than the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"/"the day of Christ."  Indeed, we have an indicator that the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" is equivalent to the event wherein the "Withholder" is "taken out of the way" such that the "man of sin," the antichrist, "might be revealed in his time."  Furthermore, if we accept that the revelation of the "man of sin" occurs at the beginning of the seven year Tribulation Period (as I have contended in an earlier posting), then the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" would occur immediately before that revelation and that beginning.

However, there are certain points of understanding that must be acknowledged in order for this conclusion to "fall into place."  First, the point that the "Withholder" is specifically the Holy Spirit of God as Indweller would need to be acknowledged.  If an individual does not agree with this point, then that individual would NOT come to the same conclusion concerning the placement for the "Rapture-Coming of Christ."  Second, the point that the revelation-event for the "man of sin" occurs with the beginning of the seven year Tribulation Period would need to be acknowledged.  Again, if an individual does not agree with this point, then that individual would not necessarily come to the same conclusion concerning the placement for the "Rapture-Coming of Christ."  (Note: This is the reason that I handled each of these two points with specific postings.)

[Pastor Scott Markle]

22 hours ago, SureWord said:

What is the "falling away"? It seems to be a mass, sudden departure from the Lord not a slow descent into apostasy. I could be wrong about that but that's the sense I get.

I think of John 6:66 where a large swath of disciples departed from the Lord and then Satan possessed the type of the son of Perdition, i.e. Judas Iscariot. Interestingly, it was what the Lord himself said about eating his flesh and drinking his blood, something they couldn't grasp spiritually, that caused the apostasy.

I know that Christian will no longer endure sound doctrine but I wonder if there's something else to it.

Brother "SureWord,"

I am pondering on how to proceed in answer to your question.  It may yet be some time, since I still have to answer Brother Mike's question concerning Revelation 14:15-16.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On 8/9/2021 at 4:40 PM, Ukulelemike said:

Thank for your kind and measured response. I do have a question: What is the event mentioned in Rev 14:14-16 referring to?  

"And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped." 

Brother Mike,

Having completed the process of my extended answer concerning 2 Thessalonians 1 - 2, I am now ready to engage your question concerning Revelation 14:14-16 - "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped."  Herein we find a report concerning a prophetic harvest-event.  The description for the "Harvester" in this portion would seem to be Lord Jesus Christ Himself.  The place of this harvest-event is a "harvest of the earth."  The reason and timing for this harvest-event, as provided in the passage itself, is because "the harvest of the earth is ripe."  However, the information of this passage does not seem to reveal whether this harvest-event is a negative event of judgment or a positive event of deliverance/blessing.

Now, that which follows in the context of Revelation 14:17-20 also presents a report concerning a prophetic harvest-event - "And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.  And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.  And the angel thrust in is sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.  And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."  Herein this harvest-event seems clearly to be a negative event of judgment, for herein the "clusters of the vine of the earth" are cast "into the great winepress of the wrath of God."  The "harvester" in this passage is described as an angel, rather than as "the Son of man" from the previous passage.  The place of this harvest-event is "the vine of the earth."  The reason and timing for this harvest-event, as provided in the passage itself, is because the grapes of the earth-vine "are fully ripe."  The result of this harvest-event is that the "winepress of the wrath of God" is trodden "without [outside] the city [most likely a reference to Jerusalem]," and blood comes out of that winepress of God's wrath, "even unto the horse bridles," for a space of 1600 furlongs.

From these two reports we find some similarities and some differences.  The first similarity is that both report a prophetic harvest-event by means of a sickle.  The second similarity is that both report a prophetic harvest-event of the earth, when the earth/vine of the earth is fully ripe.  The first difference is that in the first report One like "the Son of man" is doing the harvesting, whereas in the second report an angel is doing the harvesting.  The second difference is the first report does not specifically reveal whether the harvest-event is a negative harvest of judgment or a positive harvest of blessing, whereas the second report clearly reveals that the harvest-event is a negative harvest of judgment within "the winepress of the wrath of God."

Thus a question is raised - Do the similarities of these two reports, being within the same full context, indicate that they are reporting about the same prophetic harvest-event; or do the differences of these two reports, along with the grammatical transition from one report to the other ("And another angel came out of the temple . . ."), indicate that they are reporting about different prophetic harvest-events?

Now, the winepress of God's wrath is referenced one other time within the Book of the Revelation.  At the "Revelation-Coming of Christ" as reported in Revelation 19:11-16, verse 15 states, "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."  Even so, I would contend that Revelation 14:17-20 & Revelation 19:11-16 are speaking concerning the same prophetic event, such that the negative harvest of judgment from Revelation 14:17-20 will occur specifically at the "Revelation-Coming of Christ."  The harvesting of "the clusters of the vine of the earth" to be cast "into the the great winepress of the wrath of God" from Revelation 14:18-19 seems to correspond with our Lord Jesus Christ's smiting of the nations and treading "the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God" from Revelation 19:15.  Furthermore, the report of Revelation 14:20 ("And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.") seems to correspond quite well with the report of Revelation 19:17-21 - "And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.  These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.  And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

Now, if this correspondence of Revelation 19:15, 17-21 with Revelation 14:17-20 is correct, then we have an interesting factor to consider.  In Revelation 19:15, 17-21 it is not an angel, but the Lord Jesus Christ Himself who is smiting the nations with sword of His own mouth and who is treading the winepress of Almighty God's fierce wrath.  Such would mean that our Lord Jesus Christ Himself is centrally involved in the negative harvest of judgment as reported in Revelation 14:17-20, even though He is not specifically mentioned in Revelation 14:17-20.  Even so, this factor might allow us to view the report of the harvest-event from Revelation 14:14-16 and the report of the harvest-event from Revelation 14:17-20 as speaking concerning the same prophetic event, simply from two different perspectives.  As such, the report of Revelation 14:14-16 would be placing emphasis upon Christ's on involvement in this negative harvest of judgment; whereas Revelation 14:17-20 would be placing emphasis upon the results of this negative harvest of judgment for the ungodly of the earth.

In fact, the conclusion of the previous paragraph had been my past viewpoint through general readings of Revelation 14:14-20.  However, in order to answer Brother Mike's question with integrity of thorough Bible study, I have been required to look more closely at the context of Revelation 14:14-20.  Even so, my viewpoint concerning Revelation 14:14-16 is now somewhat different than I held in the past.

Thus more to follow in a future posting . . .

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On 8/27/2021 at 11:00 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Thus more to follow in a future posting . . .

In my previous posting, I presented the possibility that the harvest-event as reported in Revelation 14:14-16 is the same harvest-event as is reported in Revelation 14:17-20, and presented the possible Biblical grounds for such a conclusion --

On 8/27/2021 at 11:00 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Now, if this correspondence of Revelation 19:15, 17-21 with Revelation 14:17-20 is correct, then we have an interesting factor to consider.  In Revelation 19:15, 17-21 it is not an angel, but the Lord Jesus Christ Himself who is smiting the nations with sword of His own mouth and who is treading the winepress of Almighty God's fierce wrath.  Such would mean that our Lord Jesus Christ Himself is centrally involved in the negative harvest of judgment as reported in Revelation 14:17-20, even though He is not specifically mentioned in Revelation 14:17-20.  Even so, this factor might allow us to view the report of the harvest-event from Revelation 14:14-16 and the report of the harvest-event from Revelation 14:17-20 as speaking concerning the same prophetic event, simply from two different perspectives.  As such, the report of Revelation 14:14-16 would be placing emphasis upon Christ's own involvement in this negative harvest of judgment; whereas Revelation 14:17-20 would be placing emphasis upon the results of this negative harvest of judgment for the ungodly of the earth.

However, a closer consideration of the immediate context around Revelation 14:14-20 may lead us (and has led me) to a different viewpoint concerning the harvest event of Revelation 14:14-16.

In the first place, let us consider whether a prophetic harvest-event can be viewed Biblically as a positive harvest of deliverance/blessing.  Clearly the character of the prophetic harvest in Revelation 14:17-20 is a negative harvest of judgment, as per verse 19 - "And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God."  This negative character of judgment for a prophetic harvest is supported Biblically through Joel 3:9-17, as per verse 13 - "Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great."  (Note: I myself would contend that Joel 3:9-17 is speaking concerning the same prophetic event as Revelation 14:17-20.)  However, Mark 4:26-29 seems to present a prophetic harvest (in relation to the kingdom of God) from a more positive perspective - "And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground; and should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.  For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.  But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come."

So then, is it possible that Biblically a prophetic harvest may be presented as either negative unto judgment or positive unto blessing, depending on the context?  Actually, Matthew 13:24-30 seems to present a prophetic harvest-event wherein both the negative and the positive component are present in the same exact event - "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.  But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.  So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field?  From whence then hath it tares?  He said unto them, An enemy hath done this.  The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?  But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."  Furthermore, in Matthew 13:36-43 our Lord Jesus Christ gave His own explanation for this parable - "Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.  He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; the field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; the enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.  As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.  The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.  Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.  Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

So then, if it is possible (as it seems) that Biblically a prophetic harvest may be presented as either negative unto judgment or positive unto blessing, depending on the immediate context, which character is the harvest-event of Revelation 14:14-16 in accord with its immediate context?  I myself would contend that contextually Revelation 14:9-20 is to be viewed a single contextual unit.  The reference to "the wine of the wrath of God" in verse 10 seems to correspond with the reference to "the great winepress of the wrath of God" in verse 19.  As such, this correspondence would seem to join the beginning and ending of this context, and thus to encompass the passage as a single contextual unit.  Even so, I would contend that the contextual unit of Revelation 14:9-20 can be divided into four parts, as follows:

1.  The final judgment for those who worship the beast. (Revelation 14:9-11)
2.  The final blessing for those who believe on Jesus the Christ. (Revelation 14:12-13)
3.  ???The prophetic harvest under question. (Revelation 14:14-16)
4.  The negative prophetic harvest unto judgment. (Revelation 14:17-20)

Indeed, since the beginning part and the ending part of this contextual seem to carry a specific correspondence, I would further contend that the four parts of this context are to be viewed in a "chiastic" formulation (wherein the first part corresponds with the last, and the two middle parts correspond with each other), as follows:

1.  The final judgment for those who worship the beast. (Revelation 14:9-11)
          2.  The final blessing for those who believe on Jesus the Christ. (Revelation 14:12-13)
          3.  ???The prophetic harvest under question. (Revelation 14:14-16)
4.  The negative prophetic harvest unto judgment. (Revelation 14:17-20)

Now, if we recognize this "chiastic" formulation for this contextual unit, then we would recognize that the prophetic harvest-event from Revelation 14:14-16 is to be viewed as corresponding with the final blessing for those who believe on Jesus the Christ from Revelation 14:12-13.  Even so, from this contextual correspondence we would be led to view the prophetic harvest-event from Revelation 14:14-16 as a positive harvest of blessing just as the positive presentation of the final blessing for those who believe on Jesus the Christ in Revelation 14:12-13.  So then, our "chiastic" layout for this contextual unit would now be as follows:

1.  The final judgment for those who worship the beast. (Revelation 14:9-11)
          2.  The final blessing for those who believe on Jesus the Christ. (Revelation 14:12-13)
          3.  The positive prophetic harvest unto blessing. (Revelation 14:14-16)
4.  The negative prophetic harvest unto judgment. (Revelation 14:17-20)

Yet what be the timing for this positive harvest unto blessing from Revelation 14:14-16?  Since I am viewing the section of Revelation 14:9-11 as corresponding with Revelation 14:17-20, and since I am viewing these two sections as encompassing the entire context, I would contend that the prophetic events of Revelation 14:12-16 occur at the same timing as the prophetic events of Revelation 14:9-11, 17-20.  Furthermore, since I am viewing the prophet events of Revelation 14:9-11, 17-20 as corresponding with the prophetic event of Revelation 19:15, 17-21, I would contend that the prophetic events of Revelation 14:9-20 as a whole, both negative and positive, occur at the "Revelation-Coming of Christ," as per Revelation 19:11-21.  Indeed, this would mean that both the positive harvest of blessing from Revelation 14:14-16 and the negative harvest of judgment from Revelation 15:17-20, both the positive and negative component, occur within the same prophetic event, which would correspond quite well with our Lord's teaching from Matthew 13:24-30, 37-43.  

However, one question remains.  I have concluded that the character of the prophetic harvest-event from Revelation 14:14-16 is a positive character unto blessing.  I have concluded that the timing for the prophetic harvest-event from Revelation 14:14-16 is the same as the timing for that of Revelation 14:17-20, that is -- the timing of the "Revelation-Coming of Christ."  Yet what is the definition of the prophetic harvest-event from Revelation 14:14-16?  Who will be "harvested" in this positive harvest-event unto blessing?  Since contextually the harvest-event from Revelation 14:14-16 seems to correspond with the final blessing for those who believe in Jesus the Christ in Revelation 14:12-13, I would contend that this positive harvest is a harvest of believers unto blessing.  Furthermore, since I have concluded that this positive harvest-event occurs at the "Revelation-Coming of Christ," I would contend that it corresponds with Revelation 20:4-5 - "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.  This is the first resurrection."  Indeed, I would contend that the prophetic harvest from Revelation 14:14-16 is a "harvest" of believers specifically from the seven year Tribulation Period unto the blessing of the thousand year reign of Christ upon the earth.  This "harvest" of believers from the seven year Tribulation Period could be viewed as having two elements - 

1.  The resurrection of those believers who died/were killed during the seven year Tribulation Period.
2.  The rewarding of those believers who lived through the seven year Tribulation Period.

[Ukulelemike]

4 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

In my previous posting, I presented the possibility that the harvest-event as reported in Revelation 14:14-16 is the same harvest-event as is reported in Revelation 14:17-20, and presented the possible Biblical grounds for such a conclusion -- Etc...

 

Whew-that's a lot to unpack! I have heard that this refers to those believers who were saved during the tribulation period, and I would agree, except that I also believe that they include anyone who was already saved before the tribulation period who lives to enter that time. In that, this is THE rapture of all remaining believers. The reason I believe this, is that I see nowhere in scripture that lays out another even of this magnitude in such clear terms as this, an event which, I would posit, would be even more remarkable, because of a considerably larger amount of believers being taken up, and what would be an ensuing reaction in the rest of the world-that is all missing. It just isn't there, no account of the rapture of the church, or any rapture, but here in Rev 14:14, an even so clear that you even have to admit that that it is A rapture, even if not THE rapture. And I see no scriptural evidence that there would be more than one, and in fact, the rapture is called the first resurrection, and the only other we see, the second resurrection, is for those who are dead in Christ, risen for judgment at the end of this world.

Two or three resurrections?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

21 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

Whew-that's a lot to unpack!

Hmmm. Sorry that I presented so much. I just wanted to provide a thorough presentation of my reasoning, not just my "answer."

21 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

It just isn't there, no account of the rapture of the church, or any rapture, but here in Rev 14:14, an even so clear that you even have to admit that that it is A rapture, even if not THE rapture.

Actually, not precisely correct.  I admit that this involves a RESURRECTION, but not that it is a rapture (catching up).

21 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

The reason I believe this, is that I see nowhere in scripture that lays out another even of this magnitude in such clear terms as this, an event which, I would posit, would be even more remarkable, because of a considerably larger amount of believers being taken up, and what would be an ensuing reaction in the rest of the world-that is all missing.

Brother Mike,

In your belief system, what or who is the "withholder" in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7; and what does it mean for this "withholder" to be "taken out of the way"?

Edited August 31, 2021 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Ukulelemike]

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Hmmm. Sorry that I presented so much. I just wanted to provide a thorough presentation of my reasoning, not just my "answer."

Actually, not precisely correct.  I admit that this involves a RESURRECTION, but not that it is a rapture (catching up).

Brother Mike,

In your belief system, what or who is the "withholder" in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7; and what does it mean for this "withholder" to be "taken out of the way"?

Generally, it is believed that it is the Holy Spirit that "letteth" until he is taken away. My problem with this, is that the Bile outlines numerous duties, if you will, of the Spirit, to include sealing the believer, comforting us, he is our earnest, he teaches and bring to our mind the things of God, He indwells us and empowers us, but nowhere do we see that His duty is to keep back the coming of the Beast, and in that verse, it doesn't make at all clear who he is that letteth. 

Another reason is that, the idea of him being 'taken out of the way" seems odd wording to speak of the Spirit of God, being TAKEN out of the way. That sounds like something that is done to a subordinate. Personally, I believe it may be Michael the Archangel, particularly because in a few places we see him dealing with Satan, in Jude where he rebukes the Devil in the name of Christ Jesus over the body of Moses, and when he stands against the prince of the kingdom of Persia, which is often explained to be Satan, and Michael helped Gabriel in battle against him. Him I see as being one with power and authority to withstand the coming of the Beast, being probably equal in power to Satan, seeing as Satan was a Cherub. Michael is seen as a person of war, who withstands. I actually see more reason for this, than for the Spirit of God.

Besides, if people are born again during the Tribulation, then it must be the Holy Spirit that seals them as He does now, since that is His job; therefore, His presence alone would not be that which withholds the beast, else His return to seal tribulation saints would surely run him off. And yes, I believe tribulation saints will be sealed and indwelled by the Spirit, as we see the 144000 sealed by God, and that is a specific duty of the Holy Ghost. I don't see that changing.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Brother Mike,

Did you read through my posting below -

On 8/23/2021 at 1:34 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Hmmm. I am starting to wonder if I am talking into the air to myself here lately.

Nevertheless, in my previous posting I handled the fourth of the above questions.  In this posting I wish to engage the fifth of the above questions - Who is this "he" which holds back (withholds) the revelation of the man of sin?

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8a states, "And now ye know what withholdeth that he [the "man of sin" from verse 3] might be revealed in his time.  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [withholdeth] will let [withhold], until he be taken out of the way.  And then shall that Wicked be revealed . . . ."  Herein we learn a number of truths concerning the "Withholder" in relation to the "man of sin" -

1.  The "Withholder," who is a singular "he," is holding back the revelation of the "man of sin" until "his time."
2.  "The mystery of iniquity" is involved in the bringing forth the "man of sin."
3.  "The mystery of iniquity" was already at work in the first century of the church age, and has continued at work since the first century of the church age unto the present.
4.  The one reason that "the mystery of iniquity" has not yet brought forth the "man of sin" is because the "Withholder" is still holding back his revelation.
5.  The "Withholder" shall continue to oppose the "mystery of iniquity" and hold back the revelation of the "man of sin" until "he be taken out of the way."
6.  As soon as the "Withholder" is taken out the way, "then shall the Wicked [man of sin] be revealed."

Thus we observe a relationship between three elements - between "the mystery of iniquity," the "man of sin," and the "Witholder" who opposes "they mystery of iniquity" and the revelation of the "man of sin."  So, do we have any other passages of Scripture that present a similar relationship?  I believe that we have two - 1 John 2:18-ff and 1 John 4:1-4.

1 John 2:18 states, "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist [singular] shall come, even now are there many antichrists [plural]; whereby we know that it is the last time."  I would contend that the singular antichrist from 1 John 2:18 , who shall come some time in the future, is Biblically the same as the "man of sin, the son of perdition," who shall be "revealed in his time," from 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.  Even so also, I would contend that the many plural antichrists from 1 John 2:18, who are "even now" already among us, are Biblically equivalent to "the mystery of iniquity" from 2 Thessalonians 2:7, which "doth already work" among us.

1 John 4:3 states, "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."  I would contend that the "spirit of antichrist" that "should come" in the future is a reference to the coming of the singular antichrist, as per 1 John 2:18, and the revelation of the "man of sin," as per 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12.  Even so also, I would contend that the "spirit of antichrist" that is "even now already . . . in the world" is Biblically equivalent to the many plural antichrists who are "even now" among us, as per 1 John 2:18, and to "the mystery of iniquity" that "doth already work" among us, as per 2 Thessalonians 2:7.

Thus I would contend for the following Biblical equivalencies from the three passages:

1.  The antichrist = the man of sin = the son of perdition -- who shall come/be revealed in the future.
2.  The many antichrists = the spirit of antichrist = the mystery of iniquity -- which is even now already at work.

Yet why is this of significance?  2 Thessalonians teaches us that there is a "Withholder" who is presently opposing and holding back "the mystery of iniquity" from bringing in the "man of sin" at the present time, until that "Withholder" is "taken out of the way."  Thus we may ask if 1 John 2:18-ff and/or 1 John 4:1-4 reveals who this singular "Withholder" might be.  Do either of these passages reveal anything about anyone who stands in opposition to the many antichrists of the spirit of antichrist that is even now already working?  I would contend that the answer is "yes."

1 John 2:18-20 states, "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.  They [the antichrists] went out from us, but they [the antichrists] were not of us; for if they [the antichrists] had been of us, they [the antichrists] would no doubt have continued with us: but they [the antichrists] went out, that they [the antichrists] might be made manifest that they [the antichrists] were not all of us.  But [in contrast to the many antichrists] ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things."  Even so, we learn that the spiritual power which stands in opposition to the spirit of antichrist, "the mystery of iniquity," is the "unction" that we have received "from the Holy One."  So then, what is this "unction?"  In 1 John 2:26-27 some answer is given, "These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.  But the anointing [the same Greek word as is translated "unction" in 1 John 2:20] which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."  Even so, this "unction" that we have received "from the Holy One" abides within us believers, is our teacher of all truth, is itself truth and no lie, and specifically teaches us how to abide in the Holy One, our Lord Jesus Christ.  To me this sound like the indwelling Holy Spirit of God.

Furthermore, 1 John 4:1- states, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets [many antichrists] are gone out into the world.  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.  Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them [the false prophets/antichrists]: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world."  Even so, we learn that He who opposes the spirit of antichrist which is "even now already" at work "in the world" is "the Spirit of God."  Furthermore, we learn that we believers at present are able to overcome this "spirit of antichrist" specifically because the Holy Spirit of God who dwells in us is greater than the spirit of antichrist that dwells in the world.

Thus I would contend for the following addition to the Biblical equivalencies of these passages:

1.  The antichrist = the man of sin = the son of perdition -- who shall come/be revealed in the future.
2.  The many antichrists = the spirit of antichrist = the mystery of iniquity -- which is even now already at work.
3.  The unction/anointing that we have received from the Holy One = the indwelling Spirit of God = the Withholder.

Yet I would emphasize a particular aspect of this point.  The "Withholder" is NOT simply the Holy Spirit of God in general, but is specifically the Holy Spirit of God as our "Anointing," as the "Indweller" of New Testament believers.  Both 1 John 2:20-ff and 1 John 4:4 emphasize this characteristic of the Holy Spirit as the Anointing who dwells IN US.  (Note: This point will be a significance when we come to the other three questions concerning 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.)

 

[Joe Chandler]

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: ...

This establishes the intended audience.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This establishes that His coming is not a secret event.

Revelation 20:4-6   And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.  5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.  6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first resurrection.

[Joe Chandler]

1 Corinthians 15:20-24   But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.  21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.  22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.  24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

When does this resurrection occur? Look at vs 24.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52   Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,  52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Compare this passage to Revelation 10:7

Revelation 10:7   But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

On 8/1/2021 at 8:10 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

I hold to a pre-tribulational rapture position, primarily due to my understanding of the grammatical and contextual flow of thought in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.

What about the description of the event?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17   For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

No secret coming here.

[BrotherTony]

9 minutes ago, Joe Chandler said:

1 Corinthians 15:20-24   But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.  21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.  22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.  24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

When does this resurrection occur? Look at vs 24.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52   Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,  52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Compare this passage to Revelation 10:7

Revelation 10:7   But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What about the description of the event?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17   For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

No secret coming here.

You sound more like much of your theology is "reformed" theology. That being said, can I take it that you're a Calvinist? It''s a big off-subject, but will help me further understand your position. My wife and I attend an SBC-affiliated church, and we're finding that many of the pastors in the fellowship of the SBC are leaning "reformed" and Calvinist in theology. Many of these pastors, evangelists, missionaries, and college professors are preaching and teaching these things in their pulpits and in the seminary classrooms.