Textual/version stance

[Guest Guest]

One big difference Annie, you came to a KJ only sites and posted that you had no respect for anyone who made a big deal out of the KJ. I have already pointed out to you that this is a KJ site, that means the one who started this board, Bro. Matt, makes a big deal out of KJ Bible only, as well as many of us who post here. So I know you came here with a per-conceived idea, which was you do not respect people who make a big deal out of the KJ Bible.

By the same token KJB_Princess did not go to a modern version message board and start questioning what you believe about the versions of the Bible, but you did come here and start putting down KJ only.

So yes, you came here with a pre-conceived idea that you had no respect for those who make a big deal out of the KJ, so I think KJB_Princess statement is accurate and is truth.

Now deny this. I'm only calling it as it is, nothing more, just pointing out the truth.

Is your mission to try and convert people to your views? Must be, for surely your intelligent enough to have noticed this is a KJ Bible site plus its already been pointed out to you more than once.

I'm not trying to slander you, the truth only is important, so please, don't go that route.

salyan , lighten up on KJB_Princess, she is right on this one. I disagree with her on several issues, but when she is right I will stand up for her 100%, she made their right call this time.

Thank you, Jerry#s! :smile

[HappyChristian]

Everybody back up and calm yourselves. :Green *Breathe, breathe*. :Green

We've said it many times before but I guess it bears repeating...threads get locked the fastest around here when they turn ugly and members start attacking one another. Rarely is it the subject matter that gets a thread locked.

Speaking of attitudes, some of you don't have much room to talk. :saint

Anyhoo, no one in this thread "came here with the intention of putting the KJB down". Everyone who is actively participating in this thread has been a member here a long time before this thread even started.

We do have and have had members who are not KJVO, some are not IFB. All are welcome as long as they keep the attitude out.

If we cannot sufficiently, intelligently answer any questions or allegations that come our way, we should back down and re-think, not resort to name-calling.

Capiche?

:clap:

[Jerry]

I just wanted to add that I am in no way "attacking" the KJ version of the Bible!!!! I LOVE THE KJV (can I say that enough?)!!! My faith is not shaken because the translators (and/or previous scribes) made a minor error in translation or transcription. I happen to know that the Greek Septuigint clarifies that both passages should say THREE years of famine' date=' as indicated in the Chronicles account. I'm just posting this "error" to see what KJVOs think about it. I guess the obvious question is that, considering "errors" like the above, how can a person believe the KJV to be a perfect preservation of God's infallible Word (and, what's more, the ONLY place in which this perfection can be found)? [/quote']

The Greek Septuagint is corrupt and has played around with many numbers. Obviously in this case, the numbers in the passage were edited to correct what the translator(s) thought was an error - but in actual fact is not.



In various places you stated it was the KJVonlyers causing division, and only KJVonly's that think like that (ie. on some extreme position), etc.



2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Several things to be aware of: Chronicles gives God's (ie. the spiritual) view of events that happen. That is why Chronicles focusses more on the temple, where kings stood spiritually, the priesthood, worship of the Lord, etc. and the books of Samuels and Kings focusses mostly on the kingdom, the kings' families, the political condition of Israel and the surrounding nations, etc.

If you look at the contexts, you will see that Joab gets upset with David for choosing to number the military might of the nation - which they were forbidden to do.

1 Chronicles 21:2-4 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it. And Joab answered, The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel? Nevertheless the king's word prevailed against Joab. Wherefore Joab departed, and went throughout all Israel, and came to Jerusalem.

2 Samuel 24:2-4 For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people. And Joab said unto the king, Now the LORD thy God add unto the people, how many soever they be, an hundredfold, and that the eyes of my lord the king may see it: but why doth my lord the king delight in this thing? Notwithstanding the king's word prevailed against Joab, and against the captains of the host. And Joab and the captains of the host went out from the presence of the king, to number the people of Israel.

I believe God wanted David to number the people's spiritual condition (ie. number those that were saved/redeemed), but Satan moved David to number their physical/military condition.

1 Chronicles 21:7 And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel.

1 Chronicles 27:23-24 But David took not the number of them from twenty years old and under: because the LORD had said he would increase Israel like to the stars of the heavens. Joab the son of Zeruiah began to number, but he finished not, because there fell wrath for it against Israel; neither was the number put in the account of the chronicles of king David.

Because David did not do it God's way, God brought judgment. This was already stated in the Law:

Exodus 30:12-16 When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them. This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs:) an half shekel shall be the offering of the LORD. Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD. The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls. And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.

David did not take any atonement money - that is why there was the judgment of a plague. He was given the option of three years or seven years famine. This was not a contradiction. Israel had already undergone THREE YEARS OF FAMINE, AND WERE ALREADY IN THEIR FOURTH YEAR OF FAMINE (as it took over nine months to number the people) - THEREFORE THREE YEARS MORE OF FAMINE WOULD BE A TOTAL OF SEVEN YEARS.

2 Samuel 21:1 Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David inquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.

2 Samuel 24:8-9 So when they had gone through all the land, they came to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days. And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men.

1 Chronicles 21:10-12 Go and tell David, saying, Thus saith the LORD, I offer thee three things: choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee. So Gad came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee Either three years' famine; or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee; or else three days the sword of the LORD, even the pestilence, in the land, and the angel of the LORD destroying throughout all the coasts of Israel. Now therefore advise thyself what word I shall bring again to him that sent me.

2 Samuel 24:12-13 Go and say unto David, Thus saith the LORD, I offer thee three things; choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee. So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me.

I will address any other issues brought forth on this difficulty, but I wanted to post this reply first.

[Jerry]

2 Samuel 21 describes a three year famine. Chapters 22 and 23 go together, and refer to one day in David's life (the day he wrote the Psalm/song), and then goes back and gives accounts of his mighty men - no more time has passed, just more info added where God decided it fit best. Then we have David numbering the people in chapter 24. There is no Biblical reason to try to make these two chapters (21 and 24) more than a few days or few months apart; therefore it is perfectly logical to consider the three year famine to be ongoing, and connected/referred to the events that follow in chapter 24.

What were the specific numbers you had problems with? These ones?

2 Samuel 24:9 And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men.

1 Chronicles 21:5 And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword.

The first verse refers to the "valiant men that drew the sword." Not all swordsmen were valiant men - even among David's soldiers, there were only so many considered among/as his valiant men.

Also, the second verse gives an exact number that the first verse does not - that possibly means the first verse gave round numbers. For it to be a contradiction, there would have to be some statement in both indicating they were both EXACT figures - and we do not see that here.

Another issue that typically comes up is how much David paid for the oxen when he bought the threshingfloor:

This passage refers to the price paid for the oxen:

2 Samuel 24:24 And the king said unto Araunah, Nay; but I will surely buy it of thee at a price: neither will I offer burnt offerings unto the LORD my God of that which doth cost me nothing. So David bought the threshingfloor and the oxen for fifty shekels of silver.

This refers to the price paid for the property:

1 Chronicles 21:25 So David gave to Ornan for the place six hundred shekels of gold by weight.

Here is David Cloud's offered explanation:

At first David purchased only the threshingfloor and oxen for 50 shekels of silver. Later he purchased the entire hill for 600 shekels of gold for the building of the temple. 2Ch 3:1 explains that this is Mt. Moriah, the same place where God directed Abraham to offer Isaac, and where God provided a ram in his place (Ge 22:3). Thus we see that God had His eye upon this place from the beginning in preparation for the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. Here in Jerusalem, as Abraham prophesied long ago, God ?provided Himself a lamb? (Ge 22:8). As for the apparent contradiction in the names of the Jebusite owner of the threshingfloor, it is possible that he had two names, Araunah and Ornan. It is also possible that two different men were involved, one who owned the threshingfloor, the other who owned the entire hill.

[Guest Guest]

The "errors" I'm talking about are ones that I'm quite sure you and others on here are familiar with, and have probably discussed at one time or another...basically, KJV passages that contradict each other. That's why, before I brought them up, I wanted to get an idea from you what you think an "error" is.

First off, lets establish something, this isn't a KJV issue, it is a "issue" found in the original Hebrew Text. The KJV is faithfully translating the Hebrew and is not trying to "fix" it as the septuagint did.

There are many differences found between the different accounts of the same events in the books of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles. In many ways it is like the gospels, they are written by different people with different perspectives and without study they can at first glance appear to contradict. However, as is always the case with Gods Word, study will show that they do not.

BTW The dead sea scrolls showed us that the Hebrew scriptures were unchanged since before the time of Christ so if you claim this is an "error" you are claiming it was an error present in the scriptures of Jesus's day, the very same scriptures Jesus said could not be broken.

II Samuel 24 and I Chronicles 21 both describe the same historical event: David's sin in numbering the people. We can tell by comparing these passages that it's the same story, not two different times that David numbered Israel. The events are outlined pretty clearly. But there are discrepancies in the details. The discrepancy between numbers, for one thing. (I suppose that can be explained by exactly what men are referred to, etc., but there's still a pretty big discrepancy between "800,000 men that drew the sword" and "100,000 men that drew the sword" (for Israel). Judah's numbers are more comparable; the Samuel account gives the round number of "500,000," and the Chronicles amount is more exact at "470,000." (Of course, nowhere does either passage claim to be exact or rounding numbers...both accounts read as if the numbers were meant to be exact.)

You are in error in the underlined portion.


In the book of Samuel:

"2 Samuel 24:19 And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men."

In 1st Chronicles:

"1st Chronicles21:5-6 And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword. But Levi and Benjamin counted he not among them: for the king's word was abominable to Joab."

So you can see from 1 Chron. that your reading of 100,000 is incorrect for Israel. Actually, the correct number is: 1,100,000. So it would be a larger number than the number found in 2 Samuel.

So, lets get to the difference in numbers and the reason for it...

First, notice the difference between the passages beside the numbers. In 2 Samuel they specifically refer to the 800,000 as "valiant men that drew the sword" while in 1st Chron. it says: "all they of Israel... that drew the sword".

Do you suppose that all the men of Israel were valiant men? Is it not very likely that the "valiant men" were men already proved in battle while the rest were untried? No need for a contradiction...

The differing numbers for Israel can be reconciled...

So can the numbers for Judah. 2 Samuel says:

"and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men."

While 1 Chron. says:

"and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword."

So, from 2 Samuel we do not see that the 500,000 men were necessarily in fighting condition. In 1 Chron. it does say they those 470,000 were in fighting condition. That leaves about 30,000 men not counted in the 1 Chron. account because they were not able to "draw the sword".

So in a nutshell, 2 Samuel and I Chron. are giving different portions of a very detailed and complex sensus. Both accounts are true though.

Bakshirehalfdozen gave a good reason for the difference between the three and the seven years in the two passages. So I wont address that.


looks like Jerry posted much the same thing while I was writing this post... lol

[Guest Guest]

Hello...OB brothers and sister in Christ...I talked with my evangelist friend Bro. Bruce today on the telephone. Last night when I saw him at church, he was concerned about the matter of the KJVO discussion on OB. I can't even begin to tell you 1/2 of the knowledge he shared with me b/c he is a Bible scholar. For those of you who don't know who I am speaking of? Bro. Bruce was saved at the age of 3 in the IFB church when his mother took him to the pulpet at the time of invitation (he was convicted at that age...WOW!) His dad was an IFB preacher. His ancestrial heritage is Anabaptist. He was born in Allentown, PA and shortly thereafter moved to Cleveland, OH. He was baptized in Lake Erie. He is in his late 60's. He has been preaching his entire adult life and is a strong defender of the KJV 1611 AV.

As I mentioned in the other post...he told me last night at church, that 98% of the KJV 1611 AV comes directly from the Greek text. The tiny bit of information that I retained is as follows...Originally, there were 54 translators (men of God) in taking the texts and translating them to compile the KJV 1611 AV to the English speaking world. That number was narrowed down to 47 translators (men of God.) 7 men took a section of the Bible to proofread it. They went over every word 14 times. These men learned Greek and Hebrew as teenagers. They were fluent in a 1/2 dozen languages, including...Hebrew, Greek, Egyptian, Aramaic. As I stated before on OB...they were the greatest group of scholars that the world has ever known.

Bro. Bruce informed me that much of the problem with MV's (corrupt Bibles) comes from "Independent Publishing Houses." This did not happen with the KJV 1611 AV, though. Man has been capitalizing on God's Holy word for 2 reasons...1) They don't like what it says...and 2) To make money.

He asked OB members if they would read and study II Peter 1 (where it talks about guarding yourselves against false teachers.) May Christ bless you today. :thumb

[Jerry]

he told me last night at church, that 98% of the KJV 1611 AV comes directly from the Greek text.

Actually, 100% of the KJV NT comes directly from the Greek text - otherwise the KJV translators added to the Word of God. Of course, it was verified by other TR-based translations, Greek Lexicons and portions of Scripture, and quotes from the so-called church fathers.

[Guest Guest]

Hi Bro. Jerry. Well, I asked him 2 times to verify...and, he said 98%. I will see him on Sunday and find out exactly what he meant...and, where the other 2% comes from. We know the translators didn't add to the word of God. Hmmm? I will definetly find out the information.

BTW, my oldest brother is giving Bro. Bruce his Dell Computer. It is fairly new, and my brother only uses his work computer. We may see Bro. Bruce on OB? :thumb This should be great!

[Annie]

Jerry, thanks for taking the time to respond with such a lengthy post. I will address the following information, since that's where the disagreement lies.

2 Samuel 21 describes a three year famine. Chapters 22 and 23 go together, and refer to one day in David's life (the day he wrote the Psalm/song), and then goes back and gives accounts of his mighty men - no more time has passed, just more info added where God decided it fit best. Then we have David numbering the people in chapter 24. There is no Biblical reason to try to make these two chapters (21 and 24) more than a few days or few months apart; therefore it is perfectly logical to consider the three year famine to be ongoing, and connected/referred to the events that follow in chapter 24.

What were the specific numbers you had problems with? These ones?

Jerry, the three-year famine was over after David took care of the problem, which is in verse 14 of chapter 21: "And after that God was intreated for the land." (IOW, He listened to their prayers for the famine to be over. Since you are not opposed to looking at Hebrew sources, look this phrase up if you're not sure that's what it means.) AFTER the famine had ended, Israel went to war with the Philistines for a length of time...When the narrative history picks back up in chapter 24, we really aren't sure how much time has passed between the famine and the numbering of Israel. It could be days, weeks, months, or years. Add onto that nine months of census (still with no famine going on), and I'm thinking you've got at least a year with no famine (assuming that a war takes three months)...and that's only if nothing else happened that is not included in the narrative. The two stories are obviously separated by, at the very least, a war and the 9-month census, after the famine had ended.

2 Samuel 24:9 And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men.

1 Chronicles 21:5 And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword.

The first verse refers to the "valiant men that drew the sword." Not all swordsmen were valiant men - even among David's soldiers, there were only so many considered among/as his valiant men.

This is an interesting thought...Do you have documentation (from Scripture) that there were these two categories? And, just so I understand, are you saying that Israel had one million one hundred thousand soldiers, 800,000 of which were "valiant men?" That would be the majority of his army, not an elite few.

Also, the second verse gives an exact number that the first verse does not - that possibly means the first verse gave round numbers. For it to be a contradiction, there would have to be some statement in both indicating they were both EXACT figures - and we do not see that here.

What we also do not see here is any qualifier that would tell us it's not an exact figure...a word like "almost" or "approximately." The passages just state the numbers, and leave it up to us to determine whether they are round or exact figures. I would agree that they are round figures.

[Guest Guest]

This is an interesting thought...Do you have documentation (from Scripture) that there were these two categories? And, just so I understand, are you saying that Israel had one million one hundred thousand soldiers, 800,000 of which were "valiant men?" That would be the majority of his army, not an elite few.

"valiant" here does not mean particularly elite. It just means strong, virtuous, skillful, etc. It would be like saying that they were very good soldiers. It is considerably different than say the mighty men in Davids army who are specifically listed. They were "valiant" men too, but they were also more than that...


As for a verse:

"1 Chronicles 28:1 And David assembled all the princes of Israel, the princes of the tribes, and the captains of the companies that ministered to the king by course, and the captains over the thousands, and captains over the hundreds, and the stewards over all the substance and possession of the king, and of his sons, with the officers, and with the mighty men, and with all the valiant men, unto Jerusalem."

That verse shows a distinction between the mighty men, the valiant men, and the lower level troops who were apparently not called.

This verse shows a difference too.

1 Chronicles 12:38 All these men of war, that could keep rank, came with a perfect heart to Hebron, to make David king over all Israel: and all the rest also of Israel were of one heart to make David king.

[Jerry]

AFTER the famine had ended, Israel went to war with the Philistines for a length of time...When the narrative history picks back up in chapter 24, we really aren't sure how much time has passed between the famine and the numbering of Israel. It could be days, weeks, months, or years. Add onto that nine months of census (still with no famine going on), and I'm thinking you've got at least a year with no famine (assuming that a war takes three months)...and that's only if nothing else happened that is not included in the narrative. The two stories are obviously separated by, at the very least, a war and the 9-month census, after the famine had ended.

You are making an assumption based on lack of information that the famine was over and had been for a year. Granted, there is about a year inbetween the two events (chapter 21 and 24) - so that does not conflict with what David was faced with: four years of famine, plus three more years of famine (equalling 7 years, but only three more left) - and those first three years were also famine based on judgment of Saul's activities.

The way to resolve Biblical difficulties is to assume there is a solution - if the only solution in someone's mind is all manuscripts are corrupted, then that is a lack of faith in God's promise to preserve His Word - it is up to us to study out until we find THAT (or even A possible) solution. It is not an irreconcilable difficulty or error if we can find one - even if we think it is not the best solution, the fact that there is one that makes sense and fits all the facts present, shows that it is not an error in the Bible itself, but a problem with our initial understanding of the text.

[Annie]

You are making an assumption based on lack of information that the famine was over and had been for a year. Granted, there is about a year inbetween the two events (chapter 21 and 24) - so that does not conflict with what David was faced with: four years of famine, plus three more years of famine (equalling 7 years, but only three more left) - and those first three years were also famine based on judgment of Saul's activities.

Jerry, I think you must have missed my explanation about how we can KNOW the three-year famine was over before the Israelites went to war. The words are right there in verse 14 of chapter 21. God ended the famine before Israel went to war with the Philistines. All I was saying is that at least a war (which took some time) plus nine months of census separate the two famines. According to II Sam. 21:14, the initial famine was not ongoing throughout this time. It lasted three years--maybe a bit longer--until God ended it after David corrected the problem.

The way to resolve Biblical difficulties is to assume there is a solution - if the only solution in someone's mind is all manuscripts are corrupted, then that is a lack of faith in God's promise to preserve His Word - it is up to us to study out until we find THAT (or even A possible) solution. It is not an irreconcilable difficulty or error if we can find one - even if we think it is not the best solution, the fact that there is one that makes sense and fits all the facts present, shows that it is not an error in the Bible itself, but a problem with our initial understanding of the text.

The problem is that this explanation doesn't fit the facts laid out in the biblical record; it doesn't make sense or fit all the facts present. I personally do not have a problem reconciling this contradiction, because I have no problem looking in other places (other translations, other manuscripts, etc.) for God's preserved word. It's not a matter of a lack of faith; in fact, it is because I believe that God has been faithful to preserve His words that I can reconcile this contradiction in the KJV by looking at other sources. I do believe there is a solution; it's just not the same as your solution.

[Jerry]

God gave His Word in the OT in Hebrew, not in Greek. If you have to run to a proven corrupted manuscript (whose history is dubious and questionable at best) to reconcile or find answers to the problem, that is not a solution. If all the extant Hebrew copies have seven years in that one verse - then what God originally said must have been seven years, not three years that Origen's corrupted Greek Septuagint gives instead.

[Jerry]

Verse 14 doesn't say God ended the famine, it teaches that God was prayed to about it. Perhaps God did not end the famine at that point in time. Taken by itself, that chapter does not indicate one way or the other - except by assumption. By comparing it with chapter 24, we can see the famine is still going on through the ten months of the census - four years of famine, then David's offer of what type of judgment.

[Annie]

Verse 14 doesn't say God ended the famine' date=' it teaches that God was prayed to about it. Perhaps God did not end the famine at that point in time. Taken by itself, that chapter does not indicate one way or the other - except by assumption. By comparing it with chapter 24, we can see the famine is still going on through the ten months of the census - four years of famine, then David's offer of what type of judgment.[/quote']

Again, this doesn't make sense. Why would the famine still be going on if God said his reason for the famine was that Saul's house had not been scoured? The problem had been taken care of. This understanding, especially added to the stronger evidence in the next paragraph, is enough to convince me that the famine had indeed ended.

Also, it is my understanding that "was intreated" (in passive tense) means "was persuaded." Did you look it up? This would be the most obvious meaning of the word, given the fact that the reason for the famine had ended.