Calvinism or Arminianism? How do you answer?

[Iconoclast]

42 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

Hello Gh, Sometimes we present the truth to seal the doom of the reprobate;

¹⁴ Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

¹⁵ For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

¹⁶ To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

¹⁷ For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

Thanks for taking time to clarify your position, and for being willing to search the scriptures.This is a large part of what we are to be about . We need to have as much truth as we can to present truth to those outside the Kingdom.

http://www.godrules.net/library/vincent/vincentrom5.htm

 

17. Reigned. The emphatic point of the comparison. The effect of the second Adam cannot fall behind that of the first. If death reigned, there must be a reign of life.

They which receive (oi lambanontev). Not believingly accept, but simply the recipients.

Abundance of grace. Note the articles, the abundance of the grace.

18. The offense of one (enov paraptwmatov). Rev., corrects, one trespass.

The righteousness of one (enov dikaiwmatov). See on ver 16. Rev., correctly, one act of righteousness.

19. Disobedience (parakohv). Only here, 2 Cor. x. 6; Hebrews ix. 2. The kindred verb paralouw to neglect, Rev., refuse, occurs Matthew xviii. 17. From para aside, amiss, and ajkouw to hear, sometimes with the accompanying sense of heeding, and so nearly = obey. Parakoh is therefore, primarily, a failing to hear or hearing amiss. Bengel remarks that the word very appositely points out the first step in Adam's fall - carelessness, as the beginning of a city's capture is the remissness of the guards.

Were made (katestaqhsan). See on Jas. iii. 6. Used elsewhere by Paul only at Tit. i. 5, in the sense of to appoint to office or position. This is its most frequent use in the New Testament. See Matt. xxiv. 25; Acts vi. 3; vii. 10; Heb. v. 1, etc. The primary meaning being to set down, it is used in classical Greek of bringing to a place, as a ship to the land, or a man to a place or person; hence to bring before a magistrate (Acts xvii. 15). From this comes the meaning to set down as, i.e., to declare or show to be; or to constitute, make to be. So 2 Pet. i. 8; Jas. iv. 4; iii. 6. The exact meaning in this passage is disputed. The following are the principal explanations:

1. Set down in a declarative sense; declared to be.

2. Placed in the category of sinners because of a vital connection with the first tranegressor.

3. Became sinners; were made. This last harmonizes with sinned in ver. 12.

The disobedience of Adam is thus declared to have been the occasion of the death of all, because it is the occasion of their sin; but the precise nature of this relation is not explained. 36 Obedience (upakohv). Note the play on the words, parakoe, hypokoe, disobedience, obedience. Upakoh obedience, is also derived from ajkouw to hear (see on disobedience) and uJpo beneath, the idea being submission to what one hears.

20. The law entered (pareishlqen) Rev., literally, came in beside, giving the force of para beside. Very significant. Now that the parallel between Adam and Christ is closed, the question arises as to the position and office of the law. How did it stand related to Adam and Christ? Paul replies that it came in alongside of the sin. "It was taken up into the divine plan or arrangement, and made an occasion for the abounding of grace in the opening of the new way to justification and life" (Dwight).

Might abound (pleonash). Not primarily of the greater consciousness and acknowledgment of sin, but of the increase of actual transgression. The other thought, however, may be included. See ch. vii. 7, 8, 9, 11.

Did much more abound (upereperisseusen). Lit., abounded over and above. Only here and 2 Cor. vii. 4. Compare uJperepleonase abounded exceedingly, 1 Tim. i. 14; uJperperisswv beyond measure, Mark vii. 37; uJperauxanei; groweth exceedingly, 2 Thess. i. 3.

21. Unto death (en tw qanatw). Wrong. In death, as Rev. As the sphere or dominion of death's tyranny. Compare ver. 14, "death reigned." Some, however, explain the preposition as instrumental, by death. How much is lost by the inaccurate rendering of the prepositions. Ellicott remarks that there are few points more characteristic of the apostle's style than his varied but accurate use of prepositions, especially of two or more in the same or in immediately contiguous clauses. See Rom. iii. 22; Ephesians iv. 6; Col. i. 16.

Through Jesus Christ our Lord. "And now - so this last word seems to say - Adam has passed away; Christ alone remains" (Godet).

1 minute ago, Iconoclast said:

http://www.godrules.net/library/vincent/vincentrom5.htm

 

17. Reigned. The emphatic point of the comparison. The effect of the second Adam cannot fall behind that of the first. If death reigned, there must be a reign of life.

They which receive (oi lambanontev). Not believingly accept, but simply the recipients.

Abundance of grace. Note the articles, the abundance of the grace.

18. The offense of one (enov paraptwmatov). Rev., corrects, one trespass.

The righteousness of one (enov dikaiwmatov). See on ver 16. Rev., correctly, one act of righteousness.

19. Disobedience (parakohv). Only here, 2 Cor. x. 6; Hebrews ix. 2. The kindred verb paralouw to neglect, Rev., refuse, occurs Matthew xviii. 17. From para aside, amiss, and ajkouw to hear, sometimes with the accompanying sense of heeding, and so nearly = obey. Parakoh is therefore, primarily, a failing to hear or hearing amiss. Bengel remarks that the word very appositely points out the first step in Adam's fall - carelessness, as the beginning of a city's capture is the remissness of the guards.

Were made (katestaqhsan). See on Jas. iii. 6. Used elsewhere by Paul only at Tit. i. 5, in the sense of to appoint to office or position. This is its most frequent use in the New Testament. See Matt. xxiv. 25; Acts vi. 3; vii. 10; Heb. v. 1, etc. The primary meaning being to set down, it is used in classical Greek of bringing to a place, as a ship to the land, or a man to a place or person; hence to bring before a magistrate (Acts xvii. 15). From this comes the meaning to set down as, i.e., to declare or show to be; or to constitute, make to be. So 2 Pet. i. 8; Jas. iv. 4; iii. 6. The exact meaning in this passage is disputed. The following are the principal explanations:

1. Set down in a declarative sense; declared to be.

2. Placed in the category of sinners because of a vital connection with the first tranegressor.

3. Became sinners; were made. This last harmonizes with sinned in ver. 12.

The disobedience of Adam is thus declared to have been the occasion of the death of all, because it is the occasion of their sin; but the precise nature of this relation is not explained. 36 Obedience (upakohv). Note the play on the words, parakoe, hypokoe, disobedience, obedience. Upakoh obedience, is also derived from ajkouw to hear (see on disobedience) and uJpo beneath, the idea being submission to what one hears.

20. The law entered (pareishlqen) Rev., literally, came in beside, giving the force of para beside. Very significant. Now that the parallel between Adam and Christ is closed, the question arises as to the position and office of the law. How did it stand related to Adam and Christ? Paul replies that it came in alongside of the sin. "It was taken up into the divine plan or arrangement, and made an occasion for the abounding of grace in the opening of the new way to justification and life" (Dwight).

Might abound (pleonash). Not primarily of the greater consciousness and acknowledgment of sin, but of the increase of actual transgression. The other thought, however, may be included. See ch. vii. 7, 8, 9, 11.

Did much more abound (upereperisseusen). Lit., abounded over and above. Only here and 2 Cor. vii. 4. Compare uJperepleonase abounded exceedingly, 1 Tim. i. 14; uJperperisswv beyond measure, Mark vii. 37; uJperauxanei; groweth exceedingly, 2 Thess. i. 3.

21. Unto death (en tw qanatw). Wrong. In death, as Rev. As the sphere or dominion of death's tyranny. Compare ver. 14, "death reigned." Some, however, explain the preposition as instrumental, by death. How much is lost by the inaccurate rendering of the prepositions. Ellicott remarks that there are few points more characteristic of the apostle's style than his varied but accurate use of prepositions, especially of two or more in the same or in immediately contiguous clauses. See Rom. iii. 22; Ephesians iv. 6; Col. i. 16.

Through Jesus Christ our Lord. "And now - so this last word seems to say - Adam has passed away; Christ alone remains" (Godet).

Wiersbe draws a practical application noting that "our justification is the result of a living union with Christ. And this union ought to result in a new kind of life, a righteous life of obedience to God. Our union with Adam made us sinners; our union with Christ enables us to “reign in life.” (Wiersbe, W: Bible Exposition Commentary. 1989. Victor)

Because of Adam’s disobedience, the many were appointed by God to be sinners. They were put down in the category of and constituted to be sinners. Because of Christ’s obedience, the many will be appointed to be righteous. Amazing grace that saved wretches such as we!

John MacArthur draws a practical conclusion from this passage commenting that "The person who genuinely belongs to Jesus Christ will reflect that same spirit of obedience, because he has Christ’s own life within him. When a person places his trust in Christ, he not only is declared righteous forensically but is actually made righteous, that is, given an inward righteousness that must and will bear fruit. As long as a believer is in the flesh, he will have the shortcomings and weaknesses of the flesh, and his righteousness will not be manifested perfectly. But if a person’s life is characterized by sin and shows no fruit of the Holy Spirit (see notes Galatians 5:22; 5:23), that person has no legitimate claim on Christ. The person who is made righteous by Christ will live righteously. (MacArthur, J: Romans 1-8. Chicago: Moody Press)

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On 5/16/2022 at 9:32 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Mr. Iconoclast,

Not precisely.  A representative is one who makes decisions on behalf of others.  This is not what Romans 5:12-21 describes.  Rather, Romans 5:12-21 describes two heads whose actions have spiritually affected others.  Throughout the context the others whom their actions have spiritually affected are designated and defined by the terms "all men" in verse 12 and 18 and "many" in verses 15 and 19.

This is Biblically correct according to Romans 6:1-11; Ephesians 2:1-9; etc.  However, do you recognize that throughout the context of Romans 5:12-21 we do not encounter the direct reference to being "in" Adam or "in" Christ at all?  Rather, throughout the context of Romans 5:12-21 the operative emphasis is on the prepositions "by" and "through," that is -- "by" and "through" Adam or "by" and "through" Christ.

Yet there is a very specific statement in the second half of Romans 5:18, "Even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."  So, what does this very specific statement mean?  What does it mean that the free gift came upon all men?  Based upon the phrasing itself, there can only be so many possibilities:

1.  One possibility is that all men receive "justification of life."  Yet we know that this possibility of meaning contradicts the rest of Scripture and thus cannot be the correct meaning.

2.  One possibility is that only all believers receive "justification of life."  Now, concerning the application of justification and regeneration only to believers, this possibility would stand consistent with the rest of Scripture.  However, this possibility also requires us to change the phrase that God the Holy Spirit specifically and direction inspired from "all men" to only "all believers."  Yet God the Holy Spirit did NOT inspire the statement, "Even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all believers unto justification of life."  Rather, God the Holy Spirit DID specifically inspire the statement, "Even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life."  Attempting to apply this Biblical statement unto any group less than "ALL MEN" is a direct denial of that which God the Holy Spirit Himself specifically and directly inspired.  Therefore, this possibility also cannot be the correct meaning.  (Now thus far, this is the position that you have taken, which has required you to deny and/or alter the "all men" designation that God the Holy Spirit Himself has inspired.)

3.  One possibility is that, not justification of life itself, but the free gift that is unto justification of life has come upon all men as an open offer unto them.  Now, from my understanding this possibility handles the grammar of the statement accurately, without denying or changing any part thereof. 

Note: Grammatically in the Greek the subject and verb for each of the two statements in Romans 5:18 are not specifically present, which is why the King James translation includes them with italics.  Contextually and grammatically the subject and verb for each of the two statements in Romans 5:18 are supplied by the statements of Romans 5:16, wherein the grammatical parallels (which I have highlighted by color coordination) are as follows:

Romans 5:16 - "For the judgment was by one to condemnation."
Romans 5:18 - "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation."
(In Romans 5:18 the phrase "judgment came" is in italics in the King James translation because it is not directly in the Greek of the verse, but is contextually and grammatically supplied by the earlier statement of Romans 5:16.  Furthermore, the one additional truth that Romans 5:18 supplies is the phrase "upon all men.")

Romans 5:16 - "But the free gift is of many offences unto justification."
Romans 5:18 - "Even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
(In Romans 5:18 the phrase "the free gift came" is in italics in the King James translation because it is not directly in the Greek of the verse, but is contextually and grammatically supplied by the earlier statement of Romans 5:16.  Furthermore, Romans 5:18 provides three additional thoughts to that of Romans 5:16.  First, whereas Romans 5:16 indicates that the free gift unto justification is "[out] of many offences," Romans 5:18 indicates it is "by the righteousness of one [Christ]."  Second, Romans 5:18 adds the truth that this free gift is "upon all men."  Third, Romans 5:18 indicates that the justification in this free gift is a justification "of life.")

Thus grammatically Romans 5:18 teaches the following:

1.  The free gift (of Romans 5:16) exists (being supplied from Romans 5:16, the verb "came" indicates state of being) by the righteousness of Christ.

2.  The free gift (of Romans 5:16) exists (the verb "came" indicates state of being) "unto" (for the purpose of) "justification of life."

3.  The free gift (of Romans 5:16) exists "upon all men" (herein the preposition "upon" translates the Greek preposition "eis," which means "into, unto, toward, for the sake of.")

Even so, I myself choose to follow option #3 above, because it is the one option which does not contradict the rest of Scripture and which stands true to the specific grammar of Romans 5:18. 

(However, option #3 above is certainly contrary to the doctrinal system of Calvinism, because it would mean that the Lord our God, by the righteous sacrifice of Christ, made His gracious gift of justification to exist toward/upon/for the sake of "ALL MEN;" whereas the doctrinal system of Calvinism rejects this teaching.  Thus the Calvinist will seek in some way to change the meaning of "all men" in the second half of Romans 5:18.)

15 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

Thanks for taking time to clarify your position, and for being willing to search the scriptures.This is a large part of what we are to be about . We need to have as much truth as we can to present truth to those outside the Kingdom.

Certainly.  I was more than happy to provide a clear understanding of the Biblical truth from Romans 5:18, in accord with the actual grammar that God the Holy Spirit directly and specifically inspired.

 

[Iconoclast]

2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Certainly.  I was more than happy to provide a clear understanding of the Biblical truth from Romans 5:18, in accord with the actual grammar that God the Holy Spirit directly and specifically inspired.

 

You clarified how you come to your position, but I do not think you have come to truth on it.

 

vs¹⁵ But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Many...not all men are justified.Jesus in Mt.7 says depart from me, I never at anytime knew you.

There are two federal heads.

People die In Adam or In Christ;

²² For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

Same word all, but two groups

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On 5/17/2022 at 10:59 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Certainly.  I was more than happy to provide a clear understanding of the Biblical truth from Romans 5:18, in accord with the actual grammar that God the Holy Spirit directly and specifically inspired.

On 5/17/2022 at 1:46 PM, Iconoclast said:

You clarified how you come to your position, but I do not think you have come to truth on it.

Yet you have not demonstrated grammatically wherein my presentation is wrong concerning that which God the Holy Spirit directly and precisely inspired in Romans 5:18.

On 5/17/2022 at 1:46 PM, Iconoclast said:

vs¹⁵ But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Many...not all men are justified.Jesus in Mt.7 says depart from me, I never at anytime knew you.

First, the word "many" and the phrase "all men" are NOT the same in meaning.  The phrase "all men" is a precise phrase, whereas the word "many" is a relative word according to any given context.  In a given context the word "many" can be equivalent to the precise phrase "all men," for "all men" can indeed be many of them.  However, the word "many" does not necessarily have to encompass "all," but can mean many among all.  Yet whereas the word "many" could encompass the same group as the phrase "all men," the precise phrase "all men" cannot legitimately be lessened only to include some lesser many among all; for that would require the precise phrase "all men" to cease to mean "all" (which is the exact falsehood that you keep trying to teach).

Second, Romans 5:15 does not directly say anything about men being justified.  Rather, Romans 5:15 talks about "the grace of God" and the gift of God by His grace abounding unto many.  It is Romans 5:16 which informs us that this free gift by God's grace is "unto [unto the purpose of] justification."  Furthermore, it is Romans 5:17 which informs us that those who RECEIVE the abundance of God's grace and of His gift of righteousness/justification "shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ."  Finally, it is Romans 5:19 which informs us that "by the obedience of one," Jesus Christ, MANY (NOT "all men") "shall be made righteous [justified]."  Throughout the discussion you keep being imprecise with the grammatical statements that God the Holy Spirit directly and specifically inspired.  Such imprecision is NOT "rightly dividing the word of truth."

On 5/17/2022 at 1:46 PM, Iconoclast said:

There are two federal heads.

People die In Adam or In Christ;

²² For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Same word all, but two groups

Now we are dealing with a different passage (1 Corinthians 15:22), and thus a different context and a different grammatical construction.  Whereas the grammar of Romans 5:18 emphasizes that which is BY the offence of Adam and BY the righteousness of Christ, the grammar of 1 Corinthians 15:22 focuses upon those who are IN Adam and those who are IN Christ.  Furthermore, whereas the grammar of Romans 5:18 very specifically designates the "all" with the defining phrase "ALL MEN," 1 Corinthians 15:22 designates its usage of "all" in the first half only with the phrase "in Adam" and in the second half only with the phrase "in Christ."  Therefore, the word "all" is designated and defined DIFFERENTLY in these two different contexts.  (You say - "Same word all, but two groups" - and you are accurate for 1 Corinthians 15:22, because the "all" in each phrase of the verse is designated and defined by a different phrase.  However, in Romans 5:18 the grammar does not allow two different groups because the word "all" is designated and defined by the SAME phrase - "ALL MEN" and "ALL MEN.")  Indeed, all in Adam do die; and all in Christ shall be made alive.  On the other hand, by the offence of Adam God's judgment came (exists) upon ALL MEN to condemnation; and by the righteousness of Christ God's free gift came (exists) upon (unto/for the sake of) ALL MEN unto justification of life.  Your attempt to "mash together" these two different contexts continues to demonstrate your imprecision with the grammar that God the Holy Spirit directly and specifically inspired in each case.

Edited May 19, 2022 by Pastor Scott Markle
grammar

[Iconoclast]

On 5/16/2022 at 9:32 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Mr. Iconoclast,

Not precisely.  A representative is one who makes decisions on behalf of others.  This is not what Romans 5:12-21 describes.  Rather, Romans 5:12-21 describes two heads whose actions have spiritually affected others.  Throughout the context the others whom their actions have spiritually affected are designated and defined by the terms "all men" in verse 12 and 18 and "many" in verses 15 and 19.

This is Biblically correct according to Romans 6:1-11; Ephesians 2:1-9; etc.  However, do you recognize that throughout the context of Romans 5:12-21 we do not encounter the direct reference to being "in" Adam or "in" Christ at all?  Rather, throughout the context of Romans 5:12-21 the operative emphasis is on the prepositions "by" and "through," that is -- "by" and "through" Adam or "by" and "through" Christ.

Yet there is a very specific statement in the second half of Romans 5:18, "Even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."  So, what does this very specific statement mean?  What does it mean that the free gift came upon all men?  Based upon the phrasing itself, there can only be so many possibilities:

1.  One possibility is that all men receive "justification of life."  Yet we know that this possibility of meaning contradicts the rest of Scripture and thus cannot be the correct meaning.

2.  One possibility is that only all believers receive "justification of life."  Now, concerning the application of justification and regeneration only to believers, this possibility would stand consistent with the rest of Scripture.  However, this possibility also requires us to change the phrase that God the Holy Spirit specifically and direction inspired from "all men" to only "all believers."  Yet God the Holy Spirit did NOT inspire the statement, "Even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all believers unto justification of life."  Rather, God the Holy Spirit DID specifically inspire the statement, "Even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life."  Attempting to apply this Biblical statement unto any group less than "ALL MEN" is a direct denial of that which God the Holy Spirit Himself specifically and directly inspired.  Therefore, this possibility also cannot be the correct meaning.  (Now thus far, this is the position that you have taken, which has required you to deny and/or alter the "all men" designation that God the Holy Spirit Himself has inspired.)

3.  One possibility is that, not justification of life itself, but the free gift that is unto justification of life has come upon all men as an open offer unto them.  Now, from my understanding this possibility handles the grammar of the statement accurately, without denying or changing any part thereof. 

Note: Grammatically in the Greek the subject and verb for each of the two statements in Romans 5:18 are not specifically present, which is why the King James translation includes them with italics.  Contextually and grammatically the subject and verb for each of the two statements in Romans 5:18 are supplied by the statements of Romans 5:16, wherein the grammatical parallels (which I have highlighted by color coordination) are as follows:

Romans 5:16 - "For the judgment was by one to condemnation."
Romans 5:18 - "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation."
(In Romans 5:18 the phrase "judgment came" is in italics in the King James translation because it is not directly in the Greek of the verse, but is contextually and grammatically supplied by the earlier statement of Romans 5:16.  Furthermore, the one additional truth that Romans 5:18 supplies is the phrase "upon all men.")

Romans 5:16 - "But the free gift is of many offences unto justification."
Romans 5:18 - "Even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
(In Romans 5:18 the phrase "the free gift came" is in italics in the King James translation because it is not directly in the Greek of the verse, but is contextually and grammatically supplied by the earlier statement of Romans 5:16.  Furthermore, Romans 5:18 provides three additional thoughts to that of Romans 5:16.  First, whereas Romans 5:16 indicates that the free gift unto justification is "[out] of many offences," Romans 5:18 indicates it is "by the righteousness of one [Christ]."  Second, Romans 5:18 adds the truth that this free gift is "upon all men."  Third, Romans 5:18 indicates that the justification in this free gift is a justification "of life.")

Thus grammatically Romans 5:18 teaches the following:

1.  The free gift (of Romans 5:16) exists (being supplied from Romans 5:16, the verb "came" indicates state of being) by the righteousness of Christ.

2.  The free gift (of Romans 5:16) exists (the verb "came" indicates state of being) "unto" (for the purpose of) "justification of life."

3.  The free gift (of Romans 5:16) exists "upon all men" (herein the preposition "upon" translates the Greek preposition "eis," which means "into, unto, toward, for the sake of.")

Even so, I myself choose to follow option #3 above, because it is the one option which does not contradict the rest of Scripture and which stands true to the specific grammar of Romans 5:18. 

(However, option #3 above is certainly contrary to the doctrinal system of Calvinism, because it would mean that the Lord our God, by the righteous sacrifice of Christ, made His gracious gift of justification to exist toward/upon/for the sake of "ALL MEN;" whereas the doctrinal system of Calvinism rejects this teaching.  Thus the Calvinist will seek in some way to change the meaning of "all men" in the second half of Romans 5:18.)

 

Scott tries to suggest that the all men is equivalent without any distinction which is an impossible scenario. 

He does so by suggesting his grammatical reasoning. 

He then suggests a nebulous offer to all men.

All men ever born died spiritually with Adam at the fall.

All men have not even heard about Jesus even today.

Millions have lived and died before the cross without hearing of this supposed offer .

[BrotherTony]

20 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

Scott tries to suggest that the all men is equivalent without any distinction which is an impossible scenario. 

He does so by suggesting his grammatical reasoning. 

He then suggests a nebulous offer to all men.

All men ever born died spiritually with Adam at the fall.

All men have not even heard about Jesus even today.

Millions have lived and died before the cross without hearing of this supposed offer .

Care to address the person you TALKING about directly? This wreaks of haughtiness, and is exactly what many of us have come to expect from "Calvinists."  

[heartstrings]

30 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

Scott tries to suggest that the all men is equivalent without any distinction which is an impossible scenario. 

He does so by suggesting his grammatical reasoning. 

He then suggests a nebulous offer to all men.

All men ever born died spiritually with Adam at the fall.

All men have not even heard about Jesus even today.

Millions have lived and died before the cross without hearing of this supposed offer .

all

[ awl ]

 

---

adjective

the whole of (used in referring to quantity, extent, or duration):all the cake;all the way;all year.

the whole number of (used in referring to individuals or particulars, taken collectively):all students.

SEE MORE

pronoun

the whole quantity or amount:He ate all of the peanuts. All are gone.

the whole number; every one:

Edited May 18, 2022 by heartstrings

[heartstrings]

1 hour ago, Iconoclast said:

Scott tries to suggest that the all men is equivalent without any distinction which is an impossible scenario. 

He does so by suggesting his grammatical reasoning. 

He then suggests a nebulous offer to all men.

All men ever born died spiritually with Adam at the fall.

All men have not even heard about Jesus even today.

Millions have lived and died before the cross without hearing of this supposed offer .

 

^{Romans 1:} 

¹⁶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

¹⁷ For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

¹⁸ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

¹⁹ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

²¹ Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

I'll take that a step further: By your claiming that God has not revealed himself to every(all) men, that God chooses not to reveal His "eternal power and Godhead" to every man and thereby rendering them inexcusable, kind of looks like you too are not glorifying Him as God either. God's very character is Love. He even commands us to "love our enemies" so that we can be like He is. Yet your representation of God does not love his enemies. He is like an indifferent man who "loveth not his brother". That's not the God who saved me. The God of the Bible loved the whole world so much that he gave his only begotten Son for ALL men. His love has no limits. The only limit is our ability to reject His love. That does not make God "ineffectual"; it is his perfect plan for it to be this way.

Edited May 18, 2022 by heartstrings
clarification

[Iconoclast]

10 hours ago, heartstrings said:

 

^{Romans 1:} 

¹⁶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

¹⁷ For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

¹⁸ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

¹⁹ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

²¹ Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Quote

I'll take that a step further: By your claiming that God has not revealed himself to every(all) men, that God chooses not to reveal His "eternal power and Godhead" to every man and thereby rendering them inexcusable, kind of looks like you too are not glorifying Him as God either. God's very character is Love.

Men are without excuse because God has revealed Himself By the two lights of Nature and a God given conscience.

This lets them know there is a God but it does not give enough knowledge to be saved.

Everything God is or Has  is revealed to be  HOLY.In Isa.6 he does mnot say, love, love, love, but rather HOLY ,HOLY,HOLY.

God has A HOLY LOVE, A holy wisdom, a holy Omniscience, a holy wrath, a holy justice

10 hours ago, heartstrings said:

 

Quote

He even commands us to "love our enemies" so that we can be like He is. Yet your representation of God does not love his enemies.

We are to speak the truth in love. I do that all the time.

We are to urge them to repent and believe the gospel. I get many opportunities to do that each day.

 

 

 

[Hugh_Flower]

I think people who teach Calvinism do not actually understand what they are saying. 
 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Hugh_Flower

[Iconoclast]

22 minutes ago, Hugh_Flower said:

I think people who teach Calvinism do not actually understand what they are saying. 
 

Hello Hugh,

We can take a close look at that. I cannot speak for all Calvinists, but I consider that I am "mainstream".

I will offer biblical answers. You might not enjoy my answers at first, but they will be food for thought and edifying.

You can ask anything and be critical, but I prefer biblical interaction. I just started a new thread that will deal with most of the objections and the verses offered  by several members that I have not offered specific responses to yet.

I look forward to your biblical interaction. These discussions can get heated quickly, but i think by understanding how others react can benefit each of us.

[heartstrings]

On 5/18/2022 at 8:53 PM, Iconoclast said:

Everything God is or Has  is revealed to be  HOLY.In Isa.6 he does mnot say, love, love, love, but rather HOLY ,HOLY,HOLY.

God has A HOLY LOVE, A holy wisdom, a holy Omniscience, a holy wrath, a holy justice

 

 

1 John 4:16 "God is Love"

The very Character and essence of God is Love. God is holy, but He is not holiness. God is Love, and Love is holy. The holiest thing that exists in the Universe and beyond. God tells us in His Word to " love your enemies" so that you will "be like Him". Well, if that's the way "He is" then tell me how Love "personified" would "love" some folks enough to save them from Hell but unlove the rest enough to send them to Hell simply because he selected them on some unknown whim without giving them any remedy whatsoever? Don't give the "God's ways are higher than our ways" quote because you would be misinterpreting that scripture as well.

The Calvinist religion is not love, neither is it holy. It's narcissistic, sadistic and evil. it's closer to being like the Muslim god "Allah" because that is a fatalistic religion as well. 

[Iconoclast]

4 hours ago, heartstrings said:

 

1 John 4:16 "God is Love"

The very Character and essence of God is Love. God is holy, but He is not holiness. God is Love, and Love is holy. The holiest thing that exists in the Universe and beyond. God tells us in His Word to " love your enemies" so that you will "be like Him". Well, if that's the way "He is" then tell me how Love "personified" would "love" some folks enough to save them from Hell but unlove the rest enough to send them to Hell simply because he selected them on some unknown whim without giving them any remedy whatsoever? Don't give the "God's ways are higher than our ways" quote because you would be misinterpreting that scripture as well.

The Calvinist religion is not love, neither is it holy. It's narcissistic, sadistic and evil. it's closer to being like the Muslim god "Allah" because that is a fatalistic religion as well. 

God is Love that is true.

Sorry you confuse the biblical God with Islam and its false teaching.

This reveals you lack proper teaching on Gods decree.

You would dictate to God who should be the objects of His saving love?

I leave that to God as He has perfect wisdom.

He will save a multitude, and justly send multitudes to the second death.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Iconoclast

[BrotherTony]

4 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

God is Love that is true.

Sorry you confuse the biblical God with Islam and its false teaching.

This reveals you lack proper teaching on Gods decree.

You would dictate to God who should be the objects of His saving love?

I leave that to God as He has perfect wisdom.

He will save a multitude, and justly send multitudes to the second death.

Just an observation here....this is the TYPICAL arrogant, self-absorbed type of posting many of us have come to expect from the followers of Calivn. Thank you for continuing to prove just how anti-biblical your position truly is. You say in your post you "leave that to God" I don't see that at all. 

[Iconoclast]

14 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

Just an observation here....this is the TYPICAL arrogant, self-absorbed type of posting many of us have come to expect from the followers of Calivn. Thank you for continuing to prove just how anti-biblical your position truly is. You say in your post you "leave that to God" I don't see that at all. 

Just an observation here, do you ever quote the bible or just hide behind the others here.

Bearing false witness

s is a 9th commandment violation

Have you even mentioned the bible yet?

Edited May 22, 2022 by Iconoclast
Spelling