Calvinism or Arminianism? How do you answer?

Jerry · May 15, 2022

Funny, how every single Calvinist's answer when refuted is ALWAYS "You do not understand Calvinism." Ever stopped to think if your system of theology is soooo hard to figure out that perhaps it really is not from God or His Word?

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

I do understand Calvinism - maybe not as much as a worshipper of John Calvin/Augustine. I have studied a lot of it out - and compared what I have heard and read of it to God's Word (as I am commanded to do in the Bible itself, and as I do with every other doctrine/professed Bible teaching I encounter along the way), and frankly I am convinced it is not of God nor in line with His Word. I understand the Word of God - I don't need to 100% understand every little nuance and version of Calvinism (or any other system of belief) out there to know it is heresy and false teaching, pure and simple. When you study the genuine until you know it as thoroughly as possible by studying it year in and year out, then the counterfeit is easier to spot. You don't need to study what is false, you keep studying what is true and you will spot the false as you come across it and compare it with God's Word.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

1 John 4:1-6 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

These are all promises from God in His Word. If we diligently do our part to study and apply His Word, He will teach us truth from error, whether something lines up with His Word or not.

Iconoclast · May 15, 2022

9 hours ago, Jerry said:

Funny, how every single Calvinist's answer when refuted is ALWAYS "You do not understand Calvinism." Ever stopped to think if your system of theology is soooo hard to figure out that perhaps it really is not from God or His Word?

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

I do understand Calvinism - maybe not as much as a worshipper of John Calvin/Augustine. I have studied a lot of it out - and compared what I have heard and read of it to God's Word (as I am commanded to do in the Bible itself, and as I do with every other doctrine/professed Bible teaching I encounter along the way), and frankly I am convinced it is not of God nor in line with His Word. I understand the Word of God - I don't need to 100% understand every little nuance and version of Calvinism (or any other system of belief) out there to know it is heresy and false teaching, pure and simple. When you study the genuine until you know it as thoroughly as possible by studying it year in and year out, then the counterfeit is easier to spot. You don't need to study what is false, you keep studying what is true and you will spot the false as you come across it and compare it with God's Word.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

1 John 4:1-6 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

These are all promises from God in His Word. If we diligently do our part to study and apply His Word, He will teach us truth from error, whether something lines up with His Word or not.

My friend,

You have not refuted anything. In fact the fine verses you offered could be turned around at you as you oppose yourself and God's word,as you have offered no verses showing anything amiss.

I look forward to your attempts to show any error.

wretched · May 15, 2022

On 5/13/2022 at 11:48 PM, Guest Heartstrings said:

No brother I don't think so but when I try to log in it asks me for the @ symbol as in my email address instead of my username. I haven't had the time to delve into why LOL

Oh, got it. Figured it was something like that.

Jerry · May 15, 2022

1 hour ago, Iconoclast said:

You have not refuted anything. In fact the fine verses you offered could be turned around at you as you oppose yourself and God's word,as you have offered no verses showing anything amiss.

I and many others on these boards have refuted Calvinism and all its degenerate doctrines many times on these boards. If you care, do a search on these boards. If you are just here to push your heresies, rest content in your ignorance.

While I do not have any problems discussing a specific aspect of Calvinism, it does get tiring to always have to debate the whole realm of its doctrines every time someone new comes to these boards. Pick one specific doctrine and we can discuss it.

How about Jesus only dying for the elect?

Hm, my Bible says otherwise. In fact, my Bible says this - other Scriptures can also be given than those listed below:

For Whom did Jesus die? He died:

1. For all (1 Timothy 2:6; Isaiah 53:6)

2. For every man (Hebrews 2:9; 1 Timothy 4:10)

3. For the world (John 3:16; 2 Corinthians 5:19; John 4:42; 1 John 4:14)

4. For the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2)

5. For the ungodly (Romans 5:6)

6. For false teachers (2 Peter 2:1)

7. For many (Matthew 20:28)

8. For Israel (John 11:50-51)

9. For the church (Ephesians 5:25)

10. For me (Galatians 2:20)

Iconoclast · May 15, 2022

41 minutes ago, Jerry said:

I and many others on these boards have refuted Calvinism and all its degenerate doctrines many times on these boards. If you care, do a search on these boards. If you are just here to push your heresies, rest content in your ignorance.

While I do not have any problems discussing a specific aspect of Calvinism, it does get tiring to always have to debate the whole realm of its doctrines every time someone new comes to these boards. Pick one specific doctrine and we can discuss it.

How about Jesus only dying for the elect?

Hm, my Bible says otherwise. In fact, my Bible says this - other Scriptures can also be given than those listed below:

For Whom did Jesus die? He died:

1. For all (1 Timothy 2:6; Isaiah 53:6)

2. For every man (Hebrews 2:9; 1 Timothy 4:10)

3. For the world (John 3:16; 2 Corinthians 5:19; John 4:42; 1 John 4:14)

4. For the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2)

5. For the ungodly (Romans 5:6)

6. For false teachers (2 Peter 2:1)

7. For many (Matthew 20:28)

8. For Israel (John 11:50-51)

9. For the church (Ephesians 5:25)

10. For me (Galatians 2:20)

Allow me to show what I mean when I suggest you do not understand biblical Calvinism.

You suggest there is ignorance involved here, let's see where the ignorance is;

Let's look at what you have offered;

⁹But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.....[literally everyone]

Let's let the text explain who the everyone is-

¹⁰For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

¹¹For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

¹²Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

¹³And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

¹⁴Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

¹⁵And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

¹⁶For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

So we see;

many sons, their salvation

they who are sanctified

brethren

the church, deliver them

Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

the children,deliver them

but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

You ignore the clear teaching of the elect children being given from the Father to the Son. They are described as the many sons,they who are sanctified, the church the children given to the Son, The SEED OF ABRAHAM.

These descriptions cannot be applied to the world of the ungodly.

It does not say...The seed of Adam...all men everywhere, No...it says the Seed of Abraham,

Jesus died a Covenant death for them;LK19

⁹And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

¹⁰For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Gal3;

¹³Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

¹⁴That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

¹⁵Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

¹⁶Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

²⁸There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

²⁹And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

If I go through all your posts I doubt that I would find any discussion from you on the Covenant nature of the death of our Lord. Why is that?

You like many other "baptists" have little understanding of The Covenant of redemption, yet you are quick to suggest anyone who does not fit into your little world of ideas is in some way ignorant of truth.

Even now you are trying to figure out how you can escape what I show you here, which is just scratching the surface. If you sincerely want truth you should accept the teaching of the word of God. Maybe you should be a little slower to toss around who is ignorant, and that millions od baptists who are confessional baptists , like Spurgeon, Dagg ,Boyce

heartstrings · May 15, 2022

1 hour ago, Iconoclast said:

Allow me to show what I mean when I suggest you do not understand biblical Calvinism.

You suggest there is ignorance involved here, let's see where the ignorance is;

Let's look at what you have offered;

⁹But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.....[literally everyone]

Let's let the text explain who the everyone is-

¹⁰For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

¹¹For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

¹²Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

¹³And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

¹⁴Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

¹⁵And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

¹⁶For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

So we see;

many sons, their salvation

they who are sanctified

brethren

the church, deliver them

Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

the children,deliver them

but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

You ignore the clear teaching of the elect children being given from the Father to the Son. They are described as the many sons,they who are sanctified, the church the children given to the Son, The SEED OF ABRAHAM.

These descriptions cannot be applied to the world of the ungodly.

It does not say...The seed of Adam...all men everywhere, No...it says the Seed of Abraham,

Jesus died a Covenant death for them;LK19

⁹And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

¹⁰For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Gal3;

¹³Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

¹⁴That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

¹⁵Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

¹⁶Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

²⁸There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

²⁹And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

If I go through all your posts I doubt that I would find any discussion from you on the Covenant nature of the death of our Lord. Why is that?

You like many other "baptists" have little understanding of The Covenant of redemption, yet you are quick to suggest anyone who does not fit into your little world of ideas is in some way ignorant of truth.

Even now you are trying to figure out how you can escape what I show you here, which is just scratching the surface. If you sincerely want truth you should accept the teaching of the word of God. Maybe you should be a little slower to toss around who is ignorant, and that millions od baptists who are confessional baptists , like Spurgeon, Dagg ,Boyce

Mr Iconoclast, do you think that God loves the non-elect?

Iconoclast · May 15, 2022

48 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

Mr Iconoclast, do you think that God loves the non-elect?

The bible says the saving love of God is found In Christ.

And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

⁶For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

⁷For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

⁸But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

rom8:

³⁵Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

³⁶As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

³⁷Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

³⁸For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

³⁹Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God is good to all men; He has a benevolent love towards all men, but not a saving love toward them.

⁴³Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

⁴⁴But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

⁴⁵That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

³And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

⁴Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

In the day of Noah the love of God was In the ark, Today the love of God is only found saving In Christ, not outside of Him.

Pastor Scott Markle · May 15, 2022

On 5/14/2022 at 9:15 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Mr. Iconoclast, your answer here presents no actual consideration of or work with the grammar and context throughout Romans 5:12-21. Thus your answer appears to be based simply upon your system of belief. As for myself, I would prefer an answer that is actually based upon the actual grammar and context of the passage, since that is what God the Holy Spirit actually inspired. Even so, in a future posting (when I have a little more time) I will engage that very grammar and context. (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

On 5/14/2022 at 12:10 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Recognizing that the pronouns of Romans 5:1-11 are not at all the same as those of Romans 5:12-21, and recognizing that the primary pronouns of Romans 5:12-21 are the words "all" and "many," we now must consider to whom these words "all" and "many" actually refer within the context of Romans 5:12-21. Throughout this passage we encounter the word "all" four times in two verses, in Romans 5:12 and Romans 5:18. In addition, throughout this passage we encounter the word "many" in reference to individuals (not including the reference to "many offences" in Romans 5:16) also four times in two verses, in Romans 5:15 and Romans 5:19. Since we encounter the word "all" first throughout the passage, in this posting let us consider its usage first --

Basically the word "all" means "a total completeness." In a given context the word "all" can be limited to a designated group, such that the word "all" in that context would not necessarily include other groups; however, in that given context the word "all" would still include "a total completeness" of that contextually designated group. So then, in the context of Romans 5:12-21, what is the designated group for the usage of the word "all"? As we have noted above, the word "all" is employed in this context four times in two verses. So, let us consider the Holy Spirit inspired statements of those two verses.

Romans 5:12 -- "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Romans 5:18 -- "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Herein we find that of the four usages for the word "all" in this context, God the Holy Spirit chose to include a specific designation for the word "all" in three of those occurrences. That Holy Spirit inspired designation for those three occurrences is "all men." Furthermore, the close grammatical relationship of the second usage for the word "all" in Romans 5:12 with the first usage of the word would indicate that it also references the same designation of "all men." Thus by the Holy Spirit inspired grammar, we may recognize that the word "all" throughout the context of Romans 5:12-21 refers to the particular group of "all men." Now, this designated group would not necessarily include any angelic kind or any animal kind or any divine kind, but by grammar and definition this designated group would definitely include "all" human kind "in total completeness." Indeed, this is the grammatical construction that God the Holy Spirit Himself inspired in this context. God the Holy Spirit did not limit the "all" of this context to "all believers" (as opposed to unbelievers) or to "all saints" (as opposed to the lost) or to "all in Christ" (as opposed to all in the world). Rather, God the Holy Spirit inspired the designation to be "all men" (all of human kind). Thus anyone who attempts in any manner to lessen the total inclusion of this designated group stands in direct conflict with God the Holy Spirit Himself, and thus stands in the place of falsehood.

What then do these four usages of the word "all" in this context teach us concerning "all men" (all human kind)?

1. That death has "passed upon all men" (upon all human kind).
2. That "all" (all human kind) "have sinned."
3. That "by the offence of one judgment came upon all men [upon all human kind] to condemnation."
4. That "by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men [upon all human kind] unto justification of life."

Now, these four truths may require some Biblical definition in order for us to acquire a Biblical understanding of their teaching; however, any attempt to deny the application of these four truths for the entire total completeness of human kind stands in contradiction to that which God the Holy Spirit directly inspired.

All of human kind are under the curse of death. All of human kind have committed sin against the Lord our God. All of human kind are under the condemnation of divine judgment, and that because of the one man Adam's first sin. And all of human kind are under the offer of God's free gift unto justification of life, and that because of the One Savior Jesus Christ's righteousness.

21 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

Guzik observes…

James Montgomery Boice has a superb introduction to this summary section…

Regarding the somewhat difficult to understand phrase justification of life Kenneth Wuest writes...

Mr. Iconoclast,

So, in a previous posting I requested was "an answer that is actually based upon the actual grammar and context of the passage, since that is what God the Holy Spirit actually inspired." Indeed, I myself provided just such a consideration of the passage (as per the above). However, what you provided was quotation from various human commentators. Again, I am interested in the truth that God the Holy Spirit actually inspired, not in the rhetoric of human teachers. So, let us examine the human teachers with the truth that God the Holy Spirit inspired.

21 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

Guzik observes…

From this passage, Adam and Jesus are sometimes known as the two men. Between them they represent of all humanity, and everyone is identified in either Adam or Jesus. We are born identified with Adam; we may be born again into identification with Jesus.

The idea of Adam and Jesus as two representatives of the human race is sometimes called Federal Theology or Adam and Jesus are sometimes referred to as Federal Heads. This is because under the federal system of government, representatives are chosen and the representative speaks for the people who chose him. Adam speaks for those he represents, and Jesus speaks for His people.

Again, someone may object: “But I never chose to have Adam represent me.” Of course you did! You identified yourself with Adam with the first sin you ever committed. It is absolutely true that we were born into our identification with Adam, but we also choose it with our individual acts of sin. (Romans 5)

I have no conflict per se with the first quoted paragraph above. On the other hand, the second and third paragraphs begin to go astray. It is Biblically true that the first man Adam and our Lord Jesus Christ are the two men that stand as heads for their given group of humanity. However, the idea of Federal Headship is not precisely accurate according to Scripture. Federal Headship emphasizes the legal representation of the federal head for his given group. However, Scripture emphasizes, not that Adam or Jesus Christ serve their given groups as legal representatives, but that those in either group are IN Adam or IN Jesus Christ with a very literal spiritual union to their given head. Representation is NOT the Biblical emphasis. Rather, spiritual UNION is the Biblical emphasis. Consider 1 Corinthians 15:22 - "For as IN Adam all die, even so IN Christ shall all be made alive." In fact, I am not aware of any Biblical passage which presents the case of Adam as our legal representative. Even so, the first half of the last sentence in the third paragraph that you quoted from Guzik above states, "It is absolutely true that we were born into our identification with Adam." Indeed, that IS the Biblical teaching and emphasis. Yet that sentence from Guzik continues, "But we also choose it with our individual acts of sin. (Romans 5)." Now, there is the problem with Guzik's teaching; for Romans 5:12-21 never makes a single reference to our choosing Adam in any way as our representative. Indeed, it says nothing whatsoever at all about our choosing him. Yes, Romans 5:12 indicates that we all have sinned; but it says nothing whatsoever at all about that sin being a means by which we choose Adam. Best I can tell, Guzik just made this up; or maybe he simply presented this from his system of belief. However, he did NOT get it from that which God the Holy Spirit actually inspired.

21 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

James Montgomery Boice has a superb introduction to this summary section…

First, Paul explained the sense in which “all sinned.” He did not mean that all have become sinners and have therefore sinned, though we would naturally think this, but rather that each of us was declared a sinner because of Adam’s original sin or transgression. It is true that we also sin and should be condemned for that, if there were nothing more to be said. But that is not Paul’s meaning. He meant that all have been accounted sinners in Adam, so that those who were going to be saved could be accounted righteous in the Lord Jesus Christ.

But then, lest we have fallen asleep in the meantime and have somehow missed the point after this long wait, Paul makes it again in verse 19, adding: “[1] For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, [2] so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.” (Boice, J. M. Romans. Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Book House)

Initially, I have no disagreement with the first paragraph from James Boice that you quoted above, until we get to the very last sentence of that paragraph. Therein Mr. Boice states, "He meant that all have been accounted sinners in Adam, so that those who were going to be saved could be accounted righteous in the Lord Jesus Christ." My conflict is with Mr. Boice's usage of the causative phrase, "so that." Nowhere in Romans 5:12-21 does God the Holy Spirit indicate that our being accounted as sinners in Adam serves as a reason or a means by which we could be accounted righteous in Christ. Throughout Romans 5:12-21 we encounter the grammatical structure of "just as, even so;" but we do not encounter the grammatical structure of "because of, thus also."

Furthermore, (since I actually own Mr. Boice's commentary on Romans) I took note that you skipped a few paragraphs between the two paragraphs that you quoted above. Indeed, above you quoted the paragraph wherein Mr. Boice referenced Romans 5:19 as saying, "[1] For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, [2] so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." However, you skipped the paragraph wherein Mr. Boice referenced Romans 5:18 as saying, "[1] Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, [2] so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.” (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle) Indeed, you quoted the paragraph that referenced the verse which referred to the MANY; but you did not quote the paragraph that referenced the verse which referred to ALL MEN. Yet our present dispute is not over the usage of the "many" in the context, but rather over the usage of "all men" in the context.

Now, I will acknowledge that you then proceeded to quote what appears to be another commentator. Yet since you did not include from where you acquired the quote, I was unable to check the original source.

21 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

At first glance this chart suggests all men will be justified (made righteous) but the context of Romans and the NT clearly indicates the reference is all men who are justified by faith alone. Paul is not teaching universalism or that all men will be justified (saved). Recall that in Romans 5:17 (note) Paul speaks of life for those who receive it. The point is that you don't have to do anything to be condemned. Condemnation is Adam's "gift" to you. But if you want to be justified, you must receive God's free gift by grace through faith.

All men… all men - Paul is using all men with two different meanings for the sake of parallelism, a common practice in the Hebrew Old Testament, which is similar Paul's repetition of the phrase the many in Romans 5:15 (note). The first all covers all humanity who are born into Adam. The second all refers to that part of the first all who by grace through faith are reborn into the Last Adam, Christ (Paul repeatedly emphasizes righteousness and faith - see notes Romans 1:16; 17; 3:22; 3:28; 4:5; 4:13. To reiterate - Paul is not teaching universal salvation.)

Even so, I would contend that with this portion we encounter the greatest falsehood of your posting. Now, the quotation above begins by referencing some chart that you did not include in your quote. However, IF the chart indicated that "all men" would be justified/made righteous, then the chart was NOT accurate to the Biblical text. Throughout the context of Romans 5:12-21, the phrase "made righteous" is employed one time in the second half of verse 19 - "So by the obedience of one shall MANY be made righteous." The Biblical statement is precisely accurate. By the obedience of our one Savior Jesus Christ MANY (not all men) shall be made righteous. Scripture most definitely does NOT teach universalism, that all men will be justified/saved. Indeed, within this very context Romans 5:17 most definitely does teach that "they which RECEIVE abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ." Since not all men RECEIVE, not all men shall be made righteous.

Yet this is not the point of dispute between us. Rather, the point of dispute concerns the direct statement of God the Holy Spirit in Romans 5:18 - "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life." Here is where the second paragraph that you quote above presents outright falsehood. It is grammatical falsehood to claim that Paul is using the phrase "all men" "with two different meanings" in the context. It is truth to claim that the first "all men" "covers all humanity;" but it is grammatical falsehood to then claim that the second "all men" "refers to that part of the first all who by grace through faith are reborn into the Last Adam, Christ." God the Holy Spirit did not indicate this. Rather, God the Holy Spirit inspired the precise phrase "ALL MEN" (all of human-kind) for BOTH parts of Romans 5:18. Now, the second half of Romans 5:18 most certainly is NOT teaching universal salvation, for such would stand in clear contradiction to the teaching of God's Word as a whole, and even to the teaching throughout the rest of Romans. Yet whatever the second half of Romans 5:18 is teaching, it IS applying it to "ALL MEN" (to ALL of human-kind). The real problem here is that your Calvinistic system of belief desires to change the direct statement of God the Holy Spirit because as it stands it contradicts the Calvinistic teaching of a limited sacrifice by Christ only for the elect.

Even so, I quote my earlier warning yet again:

On 5/14/2022 at 12:10 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Thus anyone who attempts in any manner to lessen the total inclusion of this designated group stands in direct conflict with God the Holy Spirit Himself, and thus stands in the place of falsehood. (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

...

Now, these four truths may require some Biblical definition in order for us to acquire a Biblical understanding of their teaching; however, any attempt to deny the application of these four truths for the entire total completeness of human kind stands in contradiction to that which God the Holy Spirit directly inspired. (emphsis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

21 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

Regarding the somewhat difficult to understand phrase justification of life Kenneth Wuest writes that "The words of life are genitive of description in the Greek text, describing the quality of the righteousness bestowed upon man. It is a righteousness which is connected with the impartation of spiritual life. In itself, this righteous standing is a purely legal matter and does not impart life nor change character. But it is accompanied by the life that God is, imparted to the believing sinner in regeneration. (Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament: Eerdmans )

All men does not mean all men will be saved, because Scripture amply attests to the truth that salvation is only for those who exercise faith in Jesus Christ (Ro 1:16-17, 3:22, 28, 4:5, 13-see notes Romans 1:16-17, 3:22, 3:28, 4:5, 4:13; cp similar phrase the many in Romans 5:15 [note])

I have no conflict with the quotation from Mr. Wuest above. Furthermore, I agree that the phrase "all men" in the second half of Romans 5:18 "does not mean all men will be saved." Rather, the second half of Romans 5:18 teaches us, NOT that "justification of life" has come upon all men, but that "THE FREE GIFT" which is "UNTO justification of life" has come upon (been made available unto) all men. Yet a gift, by its very nature, must be received (as per Romans 5:17) in order to be applied. The truth of Romans 5:18 does indeed teach something that is for "all men" (all of human-kind), but most certainly does NOT teach universal salvation. And this can be seen WITHOUT changing what God the Holy Spirit directly and precisely inspired.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Pastor Scott Markle

Pastor Scott Markle · May 15, 2022

Concerning God's love, God's Holy Word teaches:

1. That God's First love (as per the sacrifice of Christ) is for the WORLD.
2. That God's Family love is for BELIEVERS in Christ.
3. That God's Fellowship love is for believers who OBEY.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Pastor Scott Markle

BrotherTony · May 15, 2022

16 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

Guzik observes…

From this passage, Adam and Jesus are sometimes known as the two men. Between them they represent of all humanity, and everyone is identified in either Adam or Jesus. We are born identified with Adam; we may be born again into identification with Jesus.

The idea of Adam and Jesus as two representatives of the human race is sometimes called Federal Theology or Adam and Jesus are sometimes referred to as Federal Heads. This is because under the federal system of government, representatives are chosen and the representative speaks for the people who chose him. Adam speaks for those he represents, and Jesus speaks for His people.

Again, someone may object: “But I never chose to have Adam represent me.” Of course you did! You identified yourself with Adam with the first sin you ever committed. It is absolutely true that we were born into our identification with Adam, but we also choose it with our individual acts of sin. (Romans 5)

James Montgomery Boice has a superb introduction to this summary section…

First, Paul explained the sense in which “all sinned.” He did not mean that all have become sinners and have therefore sinned, though we would naturally think this, but rather that each of us was declared a sinner because of Adam’s original sin or transgression. It is true that we also sin and should be condemned for that, if there were nothing more to be said. But that is not Paul’s meaning. He meant that all have been accounted sinners in Adam, so that those who were going to be saved could be accounted righteous in the Lord Jesus Christ.

But then, lest we have fallen asleep in the meantime and have somehow missed the point after this long wait, Paul makes it again in verse 19, adding: “[1] For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, [2] so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.” (Boice, J. M. Romans. Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Book House)

At first glance this chart suggests all men will be justified (made righteous) but the context of Romans and the NT clearly indicates the reference is all men who are justified by faith alone. Paul is not teaching universalism or that all men will be justified (saved). Recall that in Romans 5:17 (note) Paul speaks of life for those who receive it. The point is that you don't have to do anything to be condemned. Condemnation is Adam's "gift" to you. But if you want to be justified, you must receive God's free gift by grace through faith.

All men… all men - Paul is using all men with two different meanings for the sake of parallelism, a common practice in the Hebrew Old Testament, which is similar Paul's repetition of the phrase the many in Romans 5:15 (note). The first all covers all humanity who are born into Adam. The second all refers to that part of the first all who by grace through faith are reborn into the Last Adam, Christ (Paul repeatedly emphasizes righteousness and faith - see notes Romans 1:16; 17; 3:22; 3:28; 4:5; 4:13. To reiterate - Paul is not teaching universal salvation.)

Regarding the somewhat difficult to understand phrase justification of life Kenneth Wuest writes that "The words of life are genitive of description in the Greek text, describing the quality of the righteousness bestowed upon man. It is a righteousness which is connected with the impartation of spiritual life. In itself, this righteous standing is a purely legal matter and does not impart life nor change character. But it is accompanied by the life that God is, imparted to the believing sinner in regeneration. (Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament: Eerdmans )

All men does not mean all men will be saved, because Scripture amply attests to the truth that salvation is only for those who exercise faith in Jesus Christ (Ro 1:16-17, 3:22, 28, 4:5, 13-see notes Romans 1:16-17, 3:22, 3:28, 4:5, 4:13; cp similar phrase the many in Romans 5:15 [note])

So, basically all means all unless you don't agree with it. I see. And I also find that those on the side of Calvinism like to rush to the use of textbooks to try and back their theories. I'd rather stick with the Bible.

Edited May 15, 2022 by BrotherTony

Pastor Scott Markle · May 15, 2022

3 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

So, basically all means all unless you don't agree with it. I see. And I also find that those on the side of Calvinism like to rush to the use of textbooks to try and back their theories. I'd rather stick with the Bible.

Yet in Romans 5:12 and Romans 5:18 God the Holy Spirit did not just say "all," but said "all MEN," very clearly and specifically defining the group that He was designating in that context.

Iconoclast · May 15, 2022

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Mr. Iconoclast,

So, in a previous posting I requested was "an answer that is actually based upon the actual grammar and context of the passage, since that is what God the Holy Spirit actually inspired." Indeed, I myself provided just such a consideration of the passage (as per the above). However, what you provided was quotation from various human commentators. Again, I am interested in the truth that God the Holy Spirit actually inspired, not in the rhetoric of human teachers. So, let us examine the human teachers with the truth that God the Holy Spirit inspired.

I have no conflict per se with the first quoted paragraph above. On the other hand, the second and third paragraphs begin to go astray. It is Biblically true that the first man Adam and our Lord Jesus Christ are the two men that stand as heads for their given group of humanity. However, the idea of Federal Headship is not precisely accurate according to Scripture. Federal Headship emphasizes the legal representation of the federal head for his given group. However, Scripture emphasizes, not that Adam or Jesus Christ serve their given groups as legal representatives, but that those in either group are IN Adam or IN Jesus Christ with a very literal spiritual union to their given head. Representation is NOT the Biblical emphasis. Rather, spiritual UNION is the Biblical emphasis. Consider 1 Corinthians 15:22 - "For as IN Adam all die, even so IN Christ shall all be made alive." In fact, I am not aware of any Biblical passage which presents the case of Adam as our legal representative. Even so, the first half of the last sentence in the third paragraph that you quoted from Guzik above states, "It is absolutely true that we were born into our identification with Adam." Indeed, that IS the Biblical teaching and emphasis. Yet that sentence from Guzik continues, "But we also choose it with our individual acts of sin. (Romans 5)." Now, there is the problem with Guzik's teaching; for Romans 5:12-21 never makes a single reference to our choosing Adam in any way as our representative. Indeed, it says nothing whatsoever at all about our choosing him. Yes, Romans 5:12 indicates that we all have sinned; but it says nothing whatsoever at all about that sin being a means by which we choose Adam. Best I can tell, Guzik just made this up; or maybe he simply presented this from his system of belief. However, he did NOT get it from that which God the Holy Spirit actually inspired.

Initially, I have no disagreement with the first paragraph from James Boice that you quoted above, until we get to the very last sentence of that paragraph. Therein Mr. Boice states, "He meant that all have been accounted sinners in Adam, so that those who were going to be saved could be accounted righteous in the Lord Jesus Christ." My conflict is with Mr. Boice's usage of the causative phrase, "so that." Nowhere in Romans 5:12-21 does God the Holy Spirit indicate that our being accounted as sinners in Adam serves as a reason or a means by which we could be accounted righteous in Christ. Throughout Romans 5:12-21 we encounter the grammatical structure of "just as, even so;" but we do not encounter the grammatical structure of "because of, thus also."

Furthermore, (since I actually own Mr. Boice's commentary on Romans) I took note that you skipped a few paragraphs between the two paragraphs that you quoted above. Indeed, above you quoted the paragraph wherein Mr. Boice referenced Romans 5:19 as saying, "[1] For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, [2] so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." However, you skipped the paragraph wherein Mr. Boice referenced Romans 5:18 as saying, "[1] Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, [2] so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.” (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle) Indeed, you quoted the paragraph that referenced the verse which referred to the MANY; but you did not quote the paragraph that referenced the verse which referred to ALL MEN. Yet our present dispute is not over the usage of the "many" in the context, but rather over the usage of "all men" in the context.

Now, I will acknowledge that you then proceeded to quote what appears to be another commentator. Yet since you did not include from where you acquired the quote, I was unable to check the original source.

Even so, I would contend that with this portion we encounter the greatest falsehood of your posting. Now, the quotation above begins by referencing some chart that you did not include in your quote. However, IF the chart indicated that "all men" would be justified/made righteous, then the chart was NOT accurate to the Biblical text. Throughout the context of Romans 5:12-21, the phrase "made righteous" is employed one time in the second half of verse 19 - "So by the obedience of one shall MANY be made righteous." The Biblical statement is precisely accurate. By the obedience of our one Savior Jesus Christ MANY (not all men) shall be made righteous. Scripture most definitely does NOT teach universalism, that all men will be justified/saved. Indeed, within this very context Romans 5:17 most definitely does teach that "they which RECEIVE abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ." Since not all men RECEIVE, not all men shall be made righteous.

Yet this is not the point of dispute between us. Rather, the point of dispute concerns the direct statement of God the Holy Spirit in Romans 5:18 - "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life." Here is where the second paragraph that you quote above presents outright falsehood. It is grammatical falsehood to claim that Paul is using the phrase "all men" "with two different meanings" in the context. It is truth to claim that the first "all men" "covers all humanity;" but it is grammatical falsehood to then claim that the second "all men" "refers to that part of the first all who by grace through faith are reborn into the Last Adam, Christ." God the Holy Spirit did not indicate this. Rather, God the Holy Spirit inspired the precise phrase "ALL MEN" (all of human-kind) for BOTH parts of Romans 5:18. Now, the second half of Romans 5:18 most certainly is NOT teaching universal salvation, for such would stand in clear contradiction to the teaching of God's Word as a whole, and even to the teaching throughout the rest of Romans. Yet whatever the second half of Romans 5:18 is teaching, it IS applying it to "ALL MEN" (to ALL of human-kind). The real problem here is that your Calvinistic system of belief desires to change the direct statement of God the Holy Spirit because as it stands it contradicts the Calvinistic teaching of a limited sacrifice by Christ only for the elect.

Even so, I quote my earlier warning yet again:

I have no conflict with the quotation from Mr. Wuest above. Furthermore, I agree that the phrase "all men" in the second half of Romans 5:18 "does not mean all men will be saved." Rather, the second half of Romans 5:18 teaches us, NOT that "justification of life" has come upon all men, but that "THE FREE GIFT" which is "UNTO justification of life" has come upon (been made available) unto all men. Yet a gift, by its very nature, must be received (as per Romans 5:17) in order to be applied. The truth of Romans 5:18 does indeed teach something that is for "all men" (all of human-kind), but most certainly does NOT teach universal salvation. And this can be seen WITHOUT changing what God the Holy Spirit directly and precisely inspired.

Hello Pastor Scott,

You go astray in that the section is not saying the "free gift" Has been made available unto all men, or has come upon all men at all.There are people living right now who have never heard a word about Jesus, sin, righteousness, or any of these things.That is why missionaries go.

I am glad you brought up 1cor15, but this second section clarifies it;

⁴²So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

⁴³It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

⁴⁴It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

⁴⁵And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

⁴⁶Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

⁴⁷The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

⁴⁸As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

⁴⁹And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

⁵⁰Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

⁵¹Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

⁵²In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

⁵³For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

⁵⁴So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

⁵⁵O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

⁵⁶The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

⁵⁷But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

⁵⁸Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast,

unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

This is stated as a fact, not an offer. Pastor Scott, we are to preach the gospel to all men.

We preach an accomplished redemption, not a potential one.

We preach an actual propitiation, again not potential.

We faithfully declare the message, the results belong to God.

When i offer links sometimes I edit them to make the post readable. I had much more I could have added, but tried to make it reasonable to read If you want more i can send it.

52 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

So, basically all means all unless you don't agree with it. I see. And I also find that those on the side of Calvinism like to rush to the use of textbooks to try and back their theories. I'd rather stick with the Bible.

Do you think all speaks of the two groups equally?

1]Tony...draw a large circle on a piece of paper.

2]Write in the top of the circle all natural men born In Adam

3]Now draw a second circle inside the large circle, about 2/3 the size of the first one.

write in the second circle ALL IN CHRIST.

All men ever born were were in the first circle, spiritually dead In Adam

.every single person was in that circle.

In the second group in the All In Christ circle...the only people that get in that circle are elected by god before the world was...the word all was used, but two different groups

All who remain In Adam die and go into second death.

All who are in Christ by new birth have eternal.

BrotherTony · May 15, 2022

7 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

Hello Pastor Scott,

You go astray in that the section is not saying the "free gift" Has been made available unto all men, or has come upon all men at all.There are people living right now who have never heard a word about Jesus, sin, righteousness, or any of these things.That is why missionaries go.

I am glad you brought up 1cor15, but this second section clarifies it;

⁴²So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

⁴³It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

⁴⁴It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

⁴⁵And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

⁴⁶Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

⁴⁷The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

⁴⁸As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

⁴⁹And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

⁵⁰Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

⁵¹Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

⁵²In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

⁵³For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

⁵⁴So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

⁵⁵O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

⁵⁶The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

⁵⁷But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

⁵⁸Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast,

unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

This is stated as a fact, not an offer. Pastor Scott, we are to preach the gospel to all men.

We preach an accomplished redemption, not a potential one.

We preach an actual propitiation, again not potential.

We faithfully declare the message, the results belong to God.

When i offer links sometimes I edit them to make the post readable. I had much more I could have added, but tried to make it reasonable to read If you want more i can send it.

Do you think all speaks of the two groups equally?

1]Tony...draw a large circle on a piece of paper.

2]Write in the top of the circle all natural men born In Adam

3]Now draw a second circle inside the large circle, about 2/3 the size of the first one.

write in the second circle ALL IN CHRIST.

All men ever born were were in the first circle, spiritually dead In Adam

.every single person was in that circle.

In the second group in the All In Christ circle...the only people that get in that circle are elected by god before the world was...the word all was used, but two different groups

All who remain In Adam die and go into second death.

All who are in Christ by new birth have eternal.

Sorry...but I don't buy the THEORY of election, or your interpretation of the word. ALL means ALL...period. He would have ALL come to repentance. That would indicate he still allows free will, just as he did in the garden. "I am the Lord thy God...I change not." Either he does, or he doesn't. Either all means all, or it doesn't. Either God is true, or he's a liar.

Iconoclast · May 15, 2022

37 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

Sorry...but I don't buy the THEORY of election, or your interpretation of the word. ALL means ALL...period. He would have ALL come to repentance. That would indicate he still allows free will, just as he did in the garden. "I am the Lord thy God...I change not." Either he does, or he doesn't. Either all means all, or it doesn't. Either God is true, or he's a liar.

Election is a biblical term, free will is not. It is not a theory it is biblical teaching. Election is a great blessing to the Church.Paul was so excited to speak of it.\

The second longest sentence in the Nt. is Eph1:3-14. it is one sentence.

Paul praises God for it. Why would you suggest it is a theory?

All of you who oppose these biblical teachings try and suggest such ideas.

Clearly All who are found In Christ on the last day are not All who remain in Adam. How do you not see this?

God is always true. He cannot lie. So it is your interpretation that is flawed.

Here is the ALL that is most important;

³⁷All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

³⁸For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

³⁹And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

God is going to save the All the Father has given to the Son. Jesus taught that, not Calvin or Augustine.

They taught it because Jesus did.

Iconoclast · May 15, 2022

2 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

So, basically all means all unless you don't agree with it. I see. And I also find that those on the side of Calvinism like to rush to the use of textbooks to try and back their theories. I'd rather stick with the Bible.

I am not the smartest person in the world.

God has given gifted pastors and teachers to the church Eph4:11-16

Many other believers understand that we can use these men who are given to studying the word, in the Hebrew and Greek.

The bible has one true meaning. I do not share the attitude some express that they alone have complete understanding all by themselves. Many claim to :stick to the bible: but they deny teachings that they emotionally struggle over.

I want whatever truth God has for us.

Sign In

Welcome Guest

Calvinism or Arminianism? How do you answer?

Recommended Posts

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

Alan

Pastor Matt

DaveW

Posted Images

Join the conversation

Topics

Topics

Members

Recent Achievements

Tell a friend

Sermon Entries