The Biblical Tithe: Cash or Crops?

[swathdiver]

Ancient peoples and in America, country folk, had little use for money when bartering and trading were more prominent.  The government has changed all that so that they can get more and more of our wealth.  So now nearly everywhere money is more prominent than trading and barter.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

It really doesn't matter what people in other lands did, or do for buying and selling, wages, etc, etc.. 

God's word is supposed to be the Christian's final authority in all matter of faith and practice.  And God's word reveals that, although the children of Israel used silver for their system of buying and selling, (see my above post) God's tithe was to come strictly from agriculture. 

I don't base God's tithe on what people in third world countries  do to survive.  Nor do I base God's tithe on what people in the United States of America do to survive.  I base God's tithe on what His word says His tithe is.

[Ukulelemike]

16 hours ago, 1Timothy115 said:

I make no such assumption. I have read that Biblical Tithing is the only form you may use. So the vegetables and animal skins is very realistic, for those who do not support tithe and giving above and beyond the tithe. I do take some exception to you as a moderator  referring to my analysis as "silly". If I said that to a moderator I would have a "warning level" over the top. I do not think that Matt meant to give cart blanche to moderators to speak disrespectfully toward members, that may be another "silly assumption" on my part.

I didn't say YOU were silly, I said your assumption is silly, and you did, indeed, make the assumption, though it may not have been intentional, it is how it came across. You said "Don't you non-tithers see the absurdity of not tithing and giving to missions?" so you have said, in effect, if you don't believe in tithing, you don't give, (to you a tithe=giving), and we certainly don't give to missions. And that is completely incorrect, thus, it is silly. And it wasn't your analysis that was silly, it was your accusation that "non-tithers' don't give. Tithing is NOT the only means of giving, even in the OT, regardless of how you feel about it: there were freewill offerings of all sorts: the issue with the tith is that it was NOT freewill, it was mandatory-thus, you believe that tithing is a mandatory giving for all believers, but that is completely false, it is not to be found anywhere in New Testament scripture. And I don't speak this as a moderator, but as a member and a fellow believer.  It just isn't there.

 

[Ukulelemike]

14 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

One reason that threads on this topic have been locked in the past is the manner in which folks address each other. Regardless of our "status" on OB, let's keep this discussion civil, or it, too, will be locked. That means not addressing the thoughts of someone who disagrees with adjectives that are demeaning. It also means not getting up on our spiritual high horse because we do or don't tithe and everyone else who doesn't do as we do is a liar and not following God.

And, BTW - the entirety of scripture is inspired. And the entirety of scripture applies to us, in one way or another. Tithing was done before the law - before any "national tax". ergo it cannot be lumped under the idea that only law-keepers tithe. Claiming that a person is CURSED if they don't tithe, however, DOES come from the law, and we are not cursed if we are in Christ. We CANNOT be free in Christ and cursed at the same time.

We tithe. Of our money, because we do not live in an agrarian society - and you can say what you will, I don't care - not meaning to sound snide. It's just that your opinion of our actions won't sway us from doing what we believe God would have us do. We tithe. And we give freewill offering. And we do both cheerfully, thankful that we have something TO give. God is good. Even when we mortals can't agree. 

And people sacrificed cattle before the law, as well.

The tithing that Abraham did before the law was a voluntary thing, but the tithing we usually point to in scripture for use today is all of the law-had Abraham not given a tithe to Melchesidek, would he have been seen as 'robbing' God? No, he chose to give because he wanted to. Later, however, the Jews are told that they are robbing God of His tithe-thus, it was a mandatory giving of not money, but foodstuffs, even though people gave money for the use of the house of God at the same time, but always freewill offerings.

So when a church teaches a tithe today, it is attaching a legality to it that doesn't exist in the churches today; nowhere can an idea of tithing be found anywhere in the New Testament, and in fact, we are specifically told that we don't give out of necessity. "But this I say, He wich soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. Every man as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver." (2Cor 9:6,7) NOT of necessity. A tithe imples necessity, demand, law. And I have seen it practiced and taught as such before, many times, that our 10% tithe is expected, and anything about that is an offering. That isn't scripture.

 

[Standing Firm In Christ]

2 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

And people sacrificed cattle before the law, as well.

The tithing that Abraham did before the law was a voluntary thing, but the tithing we usually point to in scripture for use today is all of the law-had Abraham not given a tithe to Melchesidek, would he have been seen as 'robbing' God? No, he chose to give because he wanted to. Later, however, the Jews are told that they are robbing God of His tithe-thus, it was a mandatory giving of not money, but foodstuffs, even though people gave money for the use of the house of God at the same time, but always freewill offerings.

So when a church teaches a tithe today, it is attaching a legality to it that doesn't exist in the churches today; nowhere can an idea of tithing be found anywhere in the New Testament, and in fact, we are specifically told that we don't give out of necessity. "But this I say, He wich soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. Every man as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver." (2Cor 9:6,7) NOT of necessity. A tithe imples necessity, demand, law. And I have seen it practiced and taught as such before, many times, that our 10% tithe is expected, and anything about that is an offering. That isn't scripture.

 

Exactly!  And to show how much the church preaches tithing as a Law (even though they point to Melchizedek) one only notice how they run to the Law to prove it must be done. 

...then there's the condescending remarks made about non-tither's that also shows that tithing is made a  Law. for the Church

[Alimantado]

2 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

I didn't say YOU were silly, I said your assumption is silly

Gotta say that's a neat way to direct condescending remarks at people and sidestep censure. No if someone told me my opinions were silly/stupid/idiotic or whatever, I'd take that as them calling me silly/stupid/idiotic. Perhaps I shouldn't admit that--now folk know how to get at me. ;-)

[HappyChristian]

5 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

And people sacrificed cattle before the law, as well.

The tithing that Abraham did before the law was a voluntary thing, but the tithing we usually point to in scripture for use today is all of the law-had Abraham not given a tithe to Melchesidek, would he have been seen as 'robbing' God? No, he chose to give because he wanted to. Later, however, the Jews are told that they are robbing God of His tithe-thus, it was a mandatory giving of not money, but foodstuffs, even though people gave money for the use of the house of God at the same time, but always freewill offerings.

So when a church teaches a tithe today, it is attaching a legality to it that doesn't exist in the churches today; nowhere can an idea of tithing be found anywhere in the New Testament, and in fact, we are specifically told that we don't give out of necessity. "But this I say, He wich soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. Every man as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver." (2Cor 9:6,7) NOT of necessity. A tithe imples necessity, demand, law. And I have seen it practiced and taught as such before, many times, that our 10% tithe is expected, and anything about that is an offering. That isn't scripture.

 

Where did I say that one who doesn't tithe is robbing God? I did not even imply that in any way, shape or form. (and, honestly, you don't know how Abraham would have been seen today re: robbing God had he not tithed, because he did tithe...) Did you read the part where I said there is no curse attached?  That very verse you're referencing that talks about robbing God (although I didn't quote the verse, it comes from the same passage in Malachi)? Yes, Abraham chose to give because he wanted to. And what he gave was called a tithe. And, lo and behold, it wasn't just crops, either. It was "of all."  

There is such a thing as "law of first mention." It's interesting to note that many people who subscribe to the idea of law of first mention ignore or explain away the first mention of tithing by grouping all tithing under the law God gave to Israel. (I don't know if you accept the idea of law of first mention or not, so I'm not pointing at you particularly, just making an observation)

A tithe only implies law when the person who teaches against it wants it to. Because Abraham is still an example of a pre-law tither, whether folks sacrificed cattle before the law or not. The only time a church attaches legality to the teaching of tithe is when they add the curse God put on Israel for robbing Him.

"Pointing to Melchizadek" is completely proper - God saw fit to record the instance of Abraham tithing for a reason.  In both the OT and NT.

 

[1Timothy115]

10 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

I didn't say YOU were silly, I said your assumption is silly, and you did, indeed, make the assumption, though it may not have been intentional, it is how it came across. You said "Don't you non-tithers see the absurdity of not tithing and giving to missions?" so you have said, in effect, if you don't believe in tithing, you don't give, (to you a tithe=giving), and we certainly don't give to missions. And that is completely incorrect, thus, it is silly. And it wasn't your analysis that was silly, it was your accusation that "non-tithers' don't give. Tithing is NOT the only means of giving, even in the OT, regardless of how you feel about it: there were freewill offerings of all sorts: the issue with the tith is that it was NOT freewill, it was mandatory-thus, you believe that tithing is a mandatory giving for all believers, but that is completely false, it is not to be found anywhere in New Testament scripture. And I don't speak this as a moderator, but as a member and a fellow believer.  It just isn't there.

 

Yep, I believe giving, tithing, missions, and special love offerings are graces we should grow in. If you don't that's totally up to you. I will continue to grow in this grace and pray for those who don't. I will say that it won't keep either of us out of heaven; regardless of giving by using the OT tithe method or giving as the Holy Spirit teaches in the NT. Please forgive me if I've offended your position of not tithing or supporting missionaries. As for the bolded above, I meant it just the way it sounded , exactly.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

14 hours ago, Alimantado said:

Gotta say that's a neat way to direct condescending remarks at people and sidestep censure. No if someone told me my opinions were silly/stupid/idiotic or whatever, I'd take that as them calling me silly/stupid/idiotic. Perhaps I shouldn't admit that--now folk know how to get at me. ;-)

The question is, can you not see the irony in your argument?  Your bolded statement "Don't you non-tither's see the absurdity of not tithing and giving to missions?," is actually accusing us of being silly.  

After all, the word "absurdity means  "silliness."

Maybe it is best for both tither, nor non-tither to cease using adjectives that demean

Edited July 28, 2017 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Standing Firm In Christ]

We could indeed visit the "law of first mention"...

It never fails, when teaching that tithe is a matter of the Law, someone is sure to argue it is not. (not saying anyone in this discussion said it was not Law)

Some will say that Abram’s tithe to Melchizedek was BEFORE the Law, and then say that Abram’s tithe is the first mention of tithes in the Bible, and therefore, "law of first mention" should be employed.

If we go with the "law of first mention...

The first mentioned tithe, was not from monetary wages.  Nor was it from the benefits of the one who tithed. Therefore, if law of first mention applies, it should not come from monetary wages or benefits.

The first mentioned instance of tithing reveals that Abram tithed spoils of war… spoils that did not belong to him. He had promised God that he would not take any of the spoils as his own property.  Therefore, if law of first mention applies, those who tithe should promise God that they will give the rest of what they tithe from away.

Law of first mention? In first mention of tithes, Abram was 79 years old when he tithed to Melchizedek. Therefore, if law of first mention should apply, man should not tithe until he  has reached the age of 79 as Abram was.

Law of first mention? Abram did not tithe in the town he lived in. He tithed in the land of Canaan. Therefore, if law of first mention applies, tithes need to taken to the land of Canaan and given there.

Law of first mention? The tithe Abram gave to Melchizedek was from stolen items Abram recovered from kings he had killed in battle. Therefore, if law of first mention applies, the tithe should come from stolen items recovered after killing people… specifically, kings.

Law of first mention? Abram tithed in an open valley, not in a wooden or brick building called a church. Therefore, if law of first mention applies, tithes should be given in a valley… not in a church building.

Law of first mention? Abram was childless when he tithed to Melchizedek. Therefore, if law of first mention applies, those who tithe should not have any children prior to tithing.

Law of first mention? After Abram tithed, he gave the remainder of the items which he tithed from to a king of Sodom. Abram kept nothing of that which he tithed from for himself or for his family. Therefore, if law of first mention applies, the rest of that which is tithed from should be given to a king of Sodom. The one tithing should use nothing of that which he tithes from on himself or his family.

Law of first mention?  It was a man that tithed in the first mention of tithes.  Therefore, if law of first mention applies, only men should tithe.

Law of first mention probably shouldn't apply in the case of tithing.  LoL

Edited July 28, 2017 by Standing Firm In Christ

[HappyChristian]

Yep. Right on schedule...

[DaveW]

1 hour ago, HappyChristian said:

Yep. Right on schedule...

And the reason why any "discussion" of this subject on this forum is fruitless. 

And since no fruit comes from it, there is no need to tithe from it. 

Edited July 28, 2017 by DaveW

[Standing Firm In Christ]

It would be nice if people would order my book and give an honest review of it, since this is the Book Review section.

Oh... I see someone moved it out of the Book Reviews section and into the Lounge.

 

[DaveW]

On 26/07/2017 at 0:26 PM, This guy said:

Instead of giving to a church that teaches contrary to what God said His holy tithe is, we give to people in need in our network of friends.

Just out of interest, what church DO you attend and give to nowadays?

 

[BabeinChrist]

Here are my thoughts on the matter:

 

 I believe it is biblical to tithe.

 

 

I haven't found any Scripture in the NT where God says, Stop tithing, do not give to your biblical, local, NT church.  Perhaps I missed something, but I've looked & can't find it.

 
"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
 
Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
 
Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
 
Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
 
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
 
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
 
And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts." .....Malachi 3:6-12

The Bible says here, that they were cursed with a curse because they had not been paying their tithes, & because they had been robbing from God that which belonged to him. Notice He says, "Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in my house."
The storehouse is God's house, according to this scripture. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, so that there will be meat or food in my house. He says if you do that, "I will open the windows of Heaven and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive."

He says, "I'll rebuke the devourer for your sake." What he's saying is that, people who would not give the tithe would have bad things happen to them to where it would end up costing them more money than it would've cost to just give the 10% unto the Lord that he wanted. In fact, that's what tithe means.

 

If you study the Bible, the word "tithe" and "tenth" are used interchangeably. Tithe simply means 10%. God expected man to give 10% of his increase, his income, what comes into his hand, unto the Lord. He says "I'll rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts." What God is saying here is that, He's able to make them prosper. He's able to make their crops grow better, and so forth; or He can allow these things to be cursed, dried out, & withered. What He's teaching here is that you're going to live better on 90% than you're going to live on 100%.

If you, in your own wisdom, think to yourself, "Well, I just can't afford to pay the tithe. I need all the money that I can get, to live off of." What God's saying is that, he can stretch your money further. He can bless you ... Pour out a blessing and give you abundance, whereas ... If you rob God and withhold the tithe, the opposite will be true. You can have unexpected expenses come up where you'll end up even worse off, financially.

 

The reason why (I think) people will scoff at this ... (Even though, the Bible is very clear. It's right there in Malachi 3. Anybody can see that that's what the Bible says) ... Is that there's a LOT of false teachers out there that don't care what the Bible says unless it makes them $, so they capitalize on it.... The televangelist crowd, the 'name it, claim it' prosperity preachers that are living in multi-million dollar homes ... They've got gold rings on their fingers, driving Jaguars or a Porsche & telling everybody, "Hey. If you give us money, God's going to bless you! You give a $100, you're going to get $1,000! If you give $1,000, you're going to get $10,000!".  The Joel Osteens, Benny Hinns, Jim & Tammy Faye Bakers, Joyce Meyers, etc.

 

Obviously, these people are liars, frauds, and charlatans. The problem is that then, people throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 

At the same time, we don't want to go to far in the other wrong direction, and not understand that God DOES bless you when you obey Him. It's a fact. If you obey God, He blesses you. This is one subject where that's true. In other subjects it's also true. Any time you're keeping God's commandments and doing the right thing, God's going to bless you. Where the prosperity crowd gets it wrong is, they don't tell you about all the trials, tribulations, and persecutions, and that you will possibly go through bad health. Look at Job, he's covered in sores from head to toe, and he was the most righteous man on the earth at that time. What was the latter end of Job? In the end, everything works out. In the end, he's blessed.

My pastor does not live in a big fancy mansion like the worldly false prophets that covet filthy lucre; he lives in a VERY modest home (1400 sqft +/-), despite having 8 children (9th on the way) and of course, his wife, & they live in a humble neighborhood. He is certainly NOT in it for the money.

 

He takes nothing from the government...no food stamps or free healthcare, he doesn't drive a jaguar or a Maserati; he shares a used, old van (the kind you rarely see anymore--the baby blue w/yellow stripes, metal ladder up the back, with the hideous OEM faux velvet curtains in the back windows that most people would rather take the commuter train than be seen in) with his wife, who stays home to guide the house & school their children, all of his suits are used (from secondhand thrift stores), our church building is plain....it's merely a very large suite rented out from an office strip, so there are no  beautiful stained glass windows, lush landscaping, ornate wooden pews to pay for, No stage or music room filled with elaborate instruments or impressive sound system---just an old piano needing tuned in the corner that was donated by the landlord's wife.  The pulpit was built by the Pastor himself, from a stack of 2x4s he paid $5 for from Craigslist, which he then stained with instant coffee(it looks quite nice, actually).

 

But our services every week are air-conditioned, we have lights, power, running water, our Pastor works around the clock, he writes his own sermons thrice weekly, preaches hard against sin, in season AND out, he rips face like the old school IFB, he teaches us how to be effective soulwinners & is out pounding the pavement with us weekly knocking doors, he doesn't allow queers in the congregation or tolerate fornication (if a couple are dating & are in fornication or living together unmarried he will give them 3 options: 1. If they claim to be in love & want to be together, they have 7 days to get married; 2. If they don't want to get married they must not live together & MUST stop fornicating; 3. If they refuse to get married or stop fornicating & stop living together then they must leave the church) adultery, divorce, false doctrine, he stands on the King James Bible only, he doesn't fold when persecution comes, and when homos are outside protesting he makes no apologies for the Word of God and preaches even harder.. EVERYTHING he preaches he proves with Scripture from the KJB, he encourages us to read our Bible daily & prove all things from Scripture.

 

He sells nothing. Everything is free. We give out a free King James Bible to every soul led to the Lord when out soulwinning, the fridge is always stocked with water, Gatorade, special snacks for the elderly/diabetics/pregnant or nursing moms. He offers the younger adult couples (that wish to marry, and are biblically eligible to) a  free wedding, decorates the church building, marries them, provides a free cake & free wedding photos, he provides every family a free annual family portrait, he provides church activities, like camping trips, baby showers for expectant mothers, free  CDs of his preaching, free USB drives of his sermons, he provides breakfast & buys lunch weekly to all that go soulwinning on Saturdays, the list goes on and on.

He is clear & open about church finances & hides nothing. He is a good steward of the tithes we give, & our church has never borrowed $, never had any debt.

He NEVER has fundraisers or asks us to "dig deep". He is one of the hardest workers I've ever met. He truly practices what he preaches in all aspects of his life and ministry, and that is rare these days, even amongst IFB.

 

My point is this:

Pastoring a church is a full-time job. It IS work. 

 

And it is a LOT more work than people think. Our pastor is CONSTANTLY working. It is also a HUGE responsibility, as any Bible-believing pastor knows that God is holding him accountable for the flock, and he will be chastened & held accountable by God more than the flock.

It takes MONEY to have a building for the church to meet at. If nobody tithes, how can the pastor support himself, his wife & kids (which is, by the way, a biblical requirement to pastoring a church--It must be a man, of one wife, with children, that ruleth his house well) ?
 
Our family has NO problem paying our tithe...and we actually have LESS financial problems since we started this church and tithed. Plus, we KNOW where it's going (our church building alone costs $6,000 a month to rent) and our pastor works harder than most any pastor I've known and the Bible says if a man works he has the right to eat and drink.