Paul, Chosen of the Lord Jesus as the 12th Apostle.

[Alan]

Brethren,

The Lord Jesus personally chose Paul, then called Saul, as the 12th. Apostle, to replace Judas Iscariot.

I had previously discussed this issue in detail in my study on the Book of Titus. Here is the link to that study:

Here is the portion of that study in Titus that deals with the issue whether or not Paul was the 12th Apostle.

Revelation 21:14, and Matthew 19:28, is very clear that there are only 12 apostles. To say that Matthias is the apostle for the nation of Israel and that Paul was just the apostle to the Gentiles is a private interpretation. Is Paul the 13^th Apostle as some folks say? If so, than Revelation 21:14 and Matthew 19:28 is not true. Yes, Paul was called the apostle to the Gentiles but they does in absolutely no way, in any manner, mean that there was going to be a new man called to the Jews and one to the Gentiles.

1. Paul was indeed chosen personally by the Lord Jesus Christ both in presence and by voice on the road to Damascus. Matthias was not chosen by the Lord Jesus: Matthias was chosen by the casting of lots, Acts "And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles." Acts 1:26. Matthias was chosen by lots cast by the 120 early disciples.

2. Psalm 109:8, “Let his days be few; and let another take his office.” The 12^th. apostle to replace the office, or Apostleship, of Judas Iscariot, was only one office. There is no, may I repeat, no, scripture references in the Old Testament that there would be a 13^th Apostle, nor any scripture prophesying that there would be an office to the Jews and one to the Gentiles. To differentiate between the office to the Jews and one to the Gentiles is a private interpretation, (hyper-dispensation), and not scriptural truth.

3. The Lord Jesus plainly stated concerning the 12 apostles, and then to the individual who replaced Judas Iscariot, “And Jesus said unto them, verily I say unto you, that ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the son of Man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” Matthew 19:28 If there are 13 apostles, who is the 13th. Tribe?

4. To qualify as an apostle the Lord Jesus had to call "chose," the individual by name: Matthew 10:1 & 2; Mark 3:13 & 14 “And he[Jesus] goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom he would: and they came unto him.” "Paul, and apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.") Galatians 1:1 The Lord Jesus called Paul He did not call Matthias. Matthias was called by "man." Paul was chosen by the Lord Jesus, when the Lord Jesus gave the vision to Ananias in Acts 9: 10-18 we hear these very carefully selected words by the Lord Jesus Himself, "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he [Paul] is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel."
5.            Paul was not only chosen by the Lord Jesus Himself, Jesus said Paul was "chosen," Furthermore, the Lord Jesus said that Paul was, "...to bear my name before the Gentiles,and kings, and the children of Israel." The Lord Jesus said, "... and the children of Israel."

Alan

 

[Genevanpreacher]

Are you the originator of this thoughtline?

I have NEVER heard this before your last thread, and I find it FANTASTIC that very few have called you on this.

I believe the scriptures teach, as they say. Matthias was chosen. Paul was the Gentile preacher and Peter the Jew's preacher. Paul even is recorded in Galatians 2 as such, separated from Peter's ministry.

7  But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8  (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

9  And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

[Genevanpreacher]

Acts 14:14 - "Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,..."

The word "apostles" just means someone 'sent'. From about the 12th century this word existed, and meant anyone 'sent' for a cause.

Scripture in the above verse proves that out, and disproves that Paul was the 'so-called' 12th apostle. 

In the NT anyone who was 'sent' out to do the Lord's work was an apostle, but not necessarily of the original 12 disciples, which the Lord Jesus called apostles.

[Genevanpreacher]

Anyone 'called' is given the 'apostleship' just like Paul did. We are also called to be apostles.

Look carefully below -

Romans 1 -

1  Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2  (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4  And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5  By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6  Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

 

Do you see it?

[fastjav390]

There are more than 12 apostles in scripture. So it's not a private interpretation. 

[Alan]

3 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Are you the originator of this thoughtline?

I have NEVER heard this before your last thread, and I find it FANTASTIC that very few have called you on this.

Oliver B. Greene, a well-known and respected Bible expositor among the IFB community, in  his commentary on Acts, Vol. 1, page 47 and 48, wrote. All caps, italics, and punctuation, is Green's

     I believe, with many outstanding Bible teachers, that Peter was a little premature in his action - that he should not have made this suggestion to the apostles at that time, and that they should not have elected Matthiaas to take the place of Judas. ... It seems to me that God did not recognize the choice of Matthias, because this man is never mentioned again in all the rest of the Bible. I believe that Paul should have been the one to replace Judas and become the twelth apostle. ... It was not man's choice, as was that of Matthias; but it was an outright call, commission, and ordination by God the Son - the risen, glorified Christ - for the office of apostleship: "Paul, an apostle, (not by man, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead)" (Gal. 1:1)."

Alan

 

Edited January 31, 2017 by Alan
saved too early and had to finish.

[Alan]

2 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Acts 14:14 - "Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,..." Like Matthias, men called Barnabas an Apostle. Can you show me in scripture where the Lord Jesus, not a man, verbally called Barnabas?

The word "apostles" just means someone 'sent'. From about the 12th century this word existed, and meant anyone 'sent' for a cause. In Matthew 10:1-5 an apostle was one verbally called by Jesus Christ. Instead of taking the 12th Century word, you need to take the example of Matthew 10:1-5 as an example.

Scripture in the above verse proves that out, and disproves that Paul was the 'so-called' 12th apostle. According to the words of the Lord Jesus, Acts 9:15, Paul was verablly chosen as the 12th apostle.

In the NT anyone who was 'sent' out to do the Lord's work was an apostle, but not necessarily of the original 12 disciples, which the Lord Jesus called apostles. Those who claim to be apostles, in the Mormon Church, the Catholic Church, the Charismatics, and yea, even the Baptist Church, are all false apostles. "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:14 A saint, who is 'called,' by the scriptures, is a saint; not an apostle.

 

Edited January 31, 2017 by Alan
added, 'to be apostles'

[Alan]

2 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Anyone 'called' is given the 'apostleship' just like Paul did. We are also called to be apostles. A saint in the New Testament is not verbally called by the Lord Jesus: therefore, he does not fit the biblical definition of an apostle.

Look carefully below -

Romans 1 -

1  Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2  (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4  And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5  By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Paul is clearly referring to himself  and the other eleven apostles: 'we,' the apostles. The subject matter is Paul and his receiving his apostleship along with the other apostles. Paul is clearly defending his apostleship credentials.

6  Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: Paul is changing the subject matter from his calling as an apostle to all saints who are called of Jesus Christ; 'ye also the called.' Our calling to be a saint is not verbal; but through the command of the scriptures for all to be saved. When a person is saved he is 'called' for salvation and becomes a child of God. Paul is not referring, or even suggesting, that every saint is an apostle. Your interpretation that every saint is an apostle is a forced interperetation based on an erroneous belief.

Do you see it? Do you not believe the words of the Lord Jesus, "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel." Acts 9:15

 

 

Edited January 31, 2017 by Alan
spelling (twice)

[Alan]

Brethren,

Paul the Apostle, under the direct leading of the Holy Spirit, gave the church observable tests to prove to the church whether or not a person who called themselves an apostle was truly an apostle.

Also, many of the saints in the early church, like some saints in our age, did not believe that Paul was an apostle. So, Paul, through the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in defending his credentials as an apostle, wrote:

"I am fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds." 2 Corinthians 12:11 and 12

Besides, patience (which we cannot see), the apostle Paul clearly listed two signs (a sign is an observable thing), a person could see, or if the scriptures recorded the person did such a thing. These requirements are similar to the requirements of a person who claimed to be a prophet in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, the prophet must have an observable sign, or miracle, to authenicate his credentials.
 

Wonders and Mightly deeds. The wonders and mighty deeds were in the form of miracles and must be observable by the public (not just the saints), in order to prove his ministry and words. I will use the Lord Jesus as our example. "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know." Acts 2:22

A person who said he (or even she as many feel all of the saints are called apostles), must have 'wonders.' All of the origninal 12 apostles, including Judas Iscariot, had 'wonders.'    

In the New Testament, Matthias does not do any observable signs: healings, wonders or miracles,

In our age, every saint does not have the signs of an Apostle: healings, miracles, or wonders.

If any of the brethren here on Online Baptist have any of the signs of an Apostle; healings, miracles or wonders, please let me know. In fact, give us a record of the miracles that you have performed and let us all join the Charismatics and their foolishness.

Alan

 

Edited January 31, 2017 by Alan
grammer spelling

[No Nicolaitans]

I used to hold the "Paul was the twelfth apostle" view...

While Matthias may not have been mentioned by name after his election, nor were MOST of the other twelve. However, if you do a search of the word "apostles" in the book of Acts (before Saul was called), you'll see that many acts, signs, and wonders were done through "the apostles"; of whom, Matthias was included and numbered.

We've been through all of this before, and no minds have been changed that I'm aware of.

Did the Lord tell Peter to wait? Yes...but what was he to wait for? 

Read Acts 1, and you'll see they were to wait for the Holy Ghost. Why? To give them power to be witnesses. That's what they were to wait for...and they were obedient.

A careful study of scripture...especially Paul's writings...will reveal that there were other apostles besides the 12. A careful reading of 1 Corinthians 15 will reveal this...also, by paying close attention to the times that Paul refers to "we" (apostles), if one looks to see who he's referring to, one will see that others beside the twelve are apostles. That doesn't diminish the 12's importance or standing...it just shows that there were other apostles besides those twelve. Please consider the following...

1 Corinthians 15

5  And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

 6  After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

 7  After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

 8  And last of all he was seen of me also,

Verse 5: he was seen of the twelve (this had to have included Matthias) . It certainly didn't include Judas Iscariot, and Paul wasn't yet chosen...yet...Paul says there were 12...

Verse 7: He was seen of "all the apostles" (why didn't he say "the twelve" again?). This happened before Paul saw the Lord and was chosen. 

The Lord's brother James is most definitely called an apostle, but he wasn't one of the 12...

(Galatians 1:19) But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

...yet...

...the Bible is clear that NONE of his brethren believed in him when the apostles were chosen...

(John 6) 67  Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

 68  Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

 69  And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

 70  Jesus answered them,Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Peter said, "we believe." ...but one of them didn't. In the next chapter, we see this...

John 7

 1  After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

 2  Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand.

 3  His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.

 4  For there is no man thatdoeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

 5  For neither did his brethren believe in him.

The Lord's brother, James, became an apostle. In fact, he became the leader of the church in Jerusalem...yet...he wasn't one of the twelve.

Make of it what you will. I'll still love you whether you agree or not. :)

[Alan]

22 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

While Matthias may not have been mentioned by name after his election, nor were MOST of the other twelve. However, if you do a search of the word "apostles" in the book of Acts (before Saul was called), you'll see that many acts, signs, and wonders were done through "the apostles"; of whom, Matthias was included and numbered. Matthias was not named as doing signs and wonders.

Did the Lord tell Peter to wait? Yes...but what was he to wait for? 

Read Acts 1, and you'll see they were to wait for the Holy Ghost. Why? To give them power to be witnesses. That's what they were to wait for...and they were obedient. Were they obedient in casting lots? The 120 disciples in the upper room chose Matthias by lot; I see no where in scripture where the Lord Jesus 'chose' Matthias. If they were completely obedient in this matter, than I guess we can use 'lots' also to choose in making decisions in our churches. The selection of casting lots to determine the will of God in matters was acceptable in the Old Testament; but, in the New Testament, the choosing, or making decisions, by lot, is ceased and is not acceptable.

A careful study of scripture...especially Paul's writings...will reveal that there were other apostles besides the 12. A careful reading of 1 Corinthians 15 will reveal this...also, by paying close attention to the times that Paul refers to "we" (apostles), if one looks to see who he's referring to, one will see that others beside the twelve are apostles. That doesn't diminish the 12's importance or standing...it just shows that there were other apostles besides those twelve. Please consider the following... Just because a person is called an apostle does not mean he is one. Nor, the acknowledging that Matthiasd, or Barnabas, or some other men, were called Apostles, does not make them one. Only the Lord Jesus, verbally calling a man to be an apostle, is an apostle.

1 Corinthians 15

5  And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

 6  After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

 7  After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

 8  And last of all he was seen of me also,

Verse 5: he was seen of the twelve (this had to have included Matthias) . It certainly didn't include Judas Iscariot, and Paul wasn't yet chosen...yet...Paul says there were 12... Paul knew that Matthias was considered an apostle by the other apostles. Therefore, he referred to him as one of the apostles. 

Verse 7: He was seen of "all the apostles" (why didn't he say "the twelve" again?). This happened before Paul saw the Lord and was chosen. 

The Lord's brother James is most definitely called an apostle, but he wasn't one of the 12...

(Galatians 1:19) But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

...yet...

...the Bible is clear that NONE of his brethren believed in him when the apostles were chosen...

(John 6) 67  Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

 68  Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

 69  And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

 70  Jesus answered them,Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Peter said, "we believe." ...but one of them didn't. In the next chapter, we see this...

John 7

 1  After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

 2  Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand.

 3  His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.

 4  For there is no man thatdoeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

 5  For neither did his brethren believe in him.

The Lord's brother, James, became an apostle. In fact, he became the leader of the church in Jerusalem...yet...he wasn't one of the twelve. Again, I am not saying, nor had paul said, that there was not other ment called apostles. Can you show me a scripture that James had the authenicating signs of an apostle?

Make of it what you will. I'll still love you whether you agree or not. :) I know you do. Thanks for letting me know again.

Brethren,

If all of us in the New Testament Church are called to be an apostle, as Genevanpreacher has so stated, than I will start calling you an apostle. Hmmm? Russ Pittman (Genevanpreacher), an apostle: Russ Pittman an apostle of Jesus Christ. Hmmm?

Regards,

Alan, the Apostle (in jest of course)! 

 

[No Nicolaitans]

LOL! It's clear that to be an apostle, one must have seen the risen Christ.

I'm certainly no apostle, but I certainly believe in the risen Christ! AMEN! GLORY! HALLELUJAH!

While I'm here, let me state that I MOST CERTAINLY believe that Paul was an apostle! AMEN!

[fastjav390]

2 hours ago, Alan said:

Oliver B. Greene, a well-known and respected Bible expositor among the IFB community, in  his commentary on Acts, Vol. 1, page 47 and 48, wrote. All caps, italics, and punctuation, is Green's

     I believe, with many outstanding Bible teachers, that Peter was a little premature in his action - that he should not have made this suggestion to the apostles at that time, and that they should not have elected Matthiaas to take the place of Judas. ... It seems to me that God did not recognize the choice of Matthias, because this man is never mentioned again in all the rest of the Bible. I believe that Paul should have been the one to replace Judas and become the twelth apostle. ... It was not man's choice, as was that of Matthias; but it was an outright call, commission, and ordination by God the Son - the risen, glorified Christ - for the office of apostleship: "Paul, an apostle, (not by man, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead)" (Gal. 1:1)."

Alan

 

Most of the apostles are not mentioned again after Christ's ascension. 

I believe the selection of Matthias would have fallen under Matthew 16:19- And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 

[No Nicolaitans]

28 minutes ago, Alan said:

Matthias was not named as doing signs and wonders.

Nor were most of the other apostles that the Lord had chosen...who do we see performing signs, miracles, and wonders? Peter is named. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any others...except Paul...yet the Bible clearly says that "the apostles" did. Of which, Matthias was included, numbered, and named.

29 minutes ago, Alan said:

Were they obedient in casting lots?

As I said, this has been discussed in the past (several years ago before you were here I think dear brother). The Holy Ghost had not yet been given, and Simon Peter was seeking the Lord's direction in the way that the Lord had given. In fact, Simon Peter said for the Lord to show which "he had chosen", and the lot fell to Matthias. Again, the Holy Ghost hadn't yet been given; therefore, they were still operating under Old Testament principles. He was fully acting within the God-given acts of choosing.

36 minutes ago, Alan said:

Just because a person is called an apostle does not mean he is one.

But Bro. Allen, the Bible...God's word...says that he was numbered with the apostles...the eleven; therefore, he was the twelfth. Nowhere does the Bible say that Peter was wrong...or the other 10 apostles were wrong...for including Matthias.

39 minutes ago, Alan said:

Paul knew that Matthias was considered an apostle by the other apostles. Therefore, he referred to him as one of the apostles. 

Yet, the Holy Word of Almighty God...inspired by the Holy Spirit who is Almighty God...has stated this. If we put this as just a human reference, then where does it stop? What else is simply a human reference not to be considered as God's word?

 

41 minutes ago, Alan said:

Can you show me a scripture that James had the authenicating signs of an apostle?

No, but I showed where James was called an apostle by Paul...under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I can't show you where...let's say...Bartholomew performed signs, miracles, and wonders...yet, the Bible clearly says that they were performed by "the apostles"; therefore, I most certainly believe that Bartholomew performed them.

We don't have every story of every act performed by every individual; however, we do have the fact that "the apostles" performed them. Therefore, I rest on the Word of God. The apostles performed great signs, wonders, and miracles...all of them.

Paul was an apostle. Bartholomew was an apostle, Barnabas was an apostle...and Matthias was an apostle...according to the Word of God.

:)

[Alan]

4 hours ago, fastjav390 said:

Most of the apostles are not mentioned again after Christ's ascension. 

I believe the selection of Matthias would have fallen under Matthew 16:19- And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 

fastjav390,

Thank you for bringing out Matthew 16:19 to our attention.

I am of the persuasion that they selection of Matthias does not pertain to the words of the Lord Jesus as spoken to the Apostle Peter in Matthew 16:19

According to Paul the Apostle, an apostle had to have observable signs and wonders: i.e., miracles. Matthias did not have any miracles that are recorded in scripture.

Just because some think he was called an apostle in the early church is not good enough.

It is common knowledge, that the Apostle Paul had observable signs; wonders and mighty deeds, in his ministry, that are preserved in the scriptures. If the sign is not recorded in scripture, the saint in any age does not have to believe that a person called an apostle is a true apostle.

May I repeat, in order to be authenicated ('proved' as Paul states), that a man was verbally called by the Lord Jesus, he had to have the signs of an apostle. Matthias, the Mormon apostles, the Charismatic apostles, saints in the Baptist churches who think they are apostles, and those brethren who say He called them apostles, had to have observable signs. 

So, are there any of the brethren here on OnLine Baptist an apostle? Can you show me a sign? Is that sign recorded in scripture?

Brethren,

Are not the scriptures the final authority?   

Alan

 

 

Edited January 31, 2017 by Alan
spelling and grammer