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Alan

Paul, Chosen of the Lord Jesus as the 12th Apostle.

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Are you the originator of this thoughtline?

I have NEVER heard this before your last thread, and I find it FANTASTIC that very few have called you on this.

I believe the scriptures teach, as they say. Matthias was chosen. Paul was the Gentile preacher and Peter the Jew's preacher. Paul even is recorded in Galatians 2 as such, separated from Peter's ministry.

7  But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8  (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

9  And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

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Acts 14:14 - "Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,..."

The word "apostles" just means someone 'sent'. From about the 12th century this word existed, and meant anyone 'sent' for a cause.

Scripture in the above verse proves that out, and disproves that Paul was the 'so-called' 12th apostle. 

In the NT anyone who was 'sent' out to do the Lord's work was an apostle, but not necessarily of the original 12 disciples, which the Lord Jesus called apostles.

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Anyone 'called' is given the 'apostleship' just like Paul did. We are also called to be apostles.

Look carefully below -

Romans 1 -

1  Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2  (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4  And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5  By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6  Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

 

Do you see it?

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3 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Are you the originator of this thoughtline?

I have NEVER heard this before your last thread, and I find it FANTASTIC that very few have called you on this.

Oliver B. Greene, a well-known and respected Bible expositor among the IFB community, in  his commentary on Acts, Vol. 1, page 47 and 48, wrote. All caps, italics, and punctuation, is Green's

     I believe, with many outstanding Bible teachers, that Peter was a little premature in his action - that he should not have made this suggestion to the apostles at that time, and that they should not have elected Matthiaas to take the place of Judas. ... It seems to me that God did not recognize the choice of Matthias, because this man is never mentioned again in all the rest of the Bible. I believe that Paul should have been the one to replace Judas and become the twelth apostle. ... It was not man's choice, as was that of Matthias; but it was an outright call, commission, and ordination by God the Son - the risen, glorified Christ - for the office of apostleship: "Paul, an apostle, (not by man, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead)" (Gal. 1:1)."

Alan

 

Edited by Alan
saved too early and had to finish.

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2 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Acts 14:14 - "Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,..." Like Matthias, men called Barnabas an Apostle. Can you show me in scripture where the Lord Jesus, not a man, verbally called Barnabas?

The word "apostles" just means someone 'sent'. From about the 12th century this word existed, and meant anyone 'sent' for a cause. In Matthew 10:1-5 an apostle was one verbally called by Jesus Christ. Instead of taking the 12th Century word, you need to take the example of Matthew 10:1-5 as an example.

Scripture in the above verse proves that out, and disproves that Paul was the 'so-called' 12th apostle. According to the words of the Lord Jesus, Acts 9:15, Paul was verablly chosen as the 12th apostle.

In the NT anyone who was 'sent' out to do the Lord's work was an apostle, but not necessarily of the original 12 disciples, which the Lord Jesus called apostles. Those who claim to be apostles, in the Mormon Church, the Catholic Church, the Charismatics, and yea, even the Baptist Church, are all false apostles. "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:14 A saint, who is 'called,' by the scriptures, is a saint; not an apostle.

 

Edited by Alan
added, 'to be apostles'

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2 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Anyone 'called' is given the 'apostleship' just like Paul did. We are also called to be apostles. A saint in the New Testament is not verbally called by the Lord Jesus: therefore, he does not fit the biblical definition of an apostle.

Look carefully below -

Romans 1 -

1  Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2  (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4  And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5  By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Paul is clearly referring to himself  and the other eleven apostles: 'we,' the apostles. The subject matter is Paul and his receiving his apostleship along with the other apostles. Paul is clearly defending his apostleship credentials.

6  Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: Paul is changing the subject matter from his calling as an apostle to all saints who are called of Jesus Christ; 'ye also the called.' Our calling to be a saint is not verbal; but through the command of the scriptures for all to be saved. When a person is saved he is 'called' for salvation and becomes a child of God. Paul is not referring, or even suggesting, that every saint is an apostle. Your interpretation that every saint is an apostle is a forced interperetation based on an erroneous belief.

Do you see it? Do you not believe the words of the Lord Jesus, "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel." Acts 9:15

 

 

Edited by Alan
spelling (twice)

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Brethren,

Paul the Apostle, under the direct leading of the Holy Spirit, gave the church observable tests to prove to the church whether or not a person who called themselves an apostle was truly an apostle.

Also, many of the saints in the early church, like some saints in our age, did not believe that Paul was an apostle. So, Paul, through the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in defending his credentials as an apostle, wrote:

"I am fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds." 2 Corinthians 12:11 and 12

Besides, patience (which we cannot see), the apostle Paul clearly listed two signs (a sign is an observable thing), a person could see, or if the scriptures recorded the person did such a thing. These requirements are similar to the requirements of a person who claimed to be a prophet in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, the prophet must have an observable sign, or miracle, to authenicate his credentials.
 

Wonders and Mightly deeds. The wonders and mighty deeds were in the form of miracles and must be observable by the public (not just the saints), in order to prove his ministry and words. I will use the Lord Jesus as our example. "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know." Acts 2:22

A person who said he (or even she as many feel all of the saints are called apostles), must have 'wonders.' All of the origninal 12 apostles, including Judas Iscariot, had 'wonders.'    

In the New Testament, Matthias does not do any observable signs: healings, wonders or miracles,

In our age, every saint does not have the signs of an Apostle: healings, miracles, or wonders.

If any of the brethren here on Online Baptist have any of the signs of an Apostle; healings, miracles or wonders, please let me know. In fact, give us a record of the miracles that you have performed and let us all join the Charismatics and their foolishness.

Alan

 

Edited by Alan
grammer spelling

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I used to hold the "Paul was the twelfth apostle" view...

While Matthias may not have been mentioned by name after his election, nor were MOST of the other twelve. However, if you do a search of the word "apostles" in the book of Acts (before Saul was called), you'll see that many acts, signs, and wonders were done through "the apostles"; of whom, Matthias was included and numbered.

We've been through all of this before, and no minds have been changed that I'm aware of.

Did the Lord tell Peter to wait? Yes...but what was he to wait for? 

Read Acts 1, and you'll see they were to wait for the Holy Ghost. Why? To give them power to be witnesses. That's what they were to wait for...and they were obedient.

A careful study of scripture...especially Paul's writings...will reveal that there were other apostles besides the 12. A careful reading of 1 Corinthians 15 will reveal this...also, by paying close attention to the times that Paul refers to "we" (apostles), if one looks to see who he's referring to, one will see that others beside the twelve are apostles. That doesn't diminish the 12's importance or standing...it just shows that there were other apostles besides those twelve. Please consider the following...

1 Corinthians 15

5  And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

 6  After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

 7  After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

 8  And last of all he was seen of me also,

Verse 5: he was seen of the twelve (this had to have included Matthias) . It certainly didn't include Judas Iscariot, and Paul wasn't yet chosen...yet...Paul says there were 12...

Verse 7: He was seen of "all the apostles" (why didn't he say "the twelve" again?). This happened before Paul saw the Lord and was chosen. 

The Lord's brother James is most definitely called an apostle, but he wasn't one of the 12...

(Galatians 1:19) But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

...yet...

...the Bible is clear that NONE of his brethren believed in him when the apostles were chosen...

(John 6) 67  Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

 68  Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

 69  And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

 70  Jesus answered them,Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Peter said, "we believe." ...but one of them didn't. In the next chapter, we see this...

John 7

 1  After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

 2  Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand.

 3  His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.

 4  For there is no man thatdoeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

 5  For neither did his brethren believe in him.

The Lord's brother, James, became an apostle. In fact, he became the leader of the church in Jerusalem...yet...he wasn't one of the twelve.

Make of it what you will. I'll still love you whether you agree or not. :)

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22 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

While Matthias may not have been mentioned by name after his election, nor were MOST of the other twelve. However, if you do a search of the word "apostles" in the book of Acts (before Saul was called), you'll see that many acts, signs, and wonders were done through "the apostles"; of whom, Matthias was included and numbered. Matthias was not named as doing signs and wonders.

Did the Lord tell Peter to wait? Yes...but what was he to wait for? 

Read Acts 1, and you'll see they were to wait for the Holy Ghost. Why? To give them power to be witnesses. That's what they were to wait for...and they were obedient. Were they obedient in casting lots? The 120 disciples in the upper room chose Matthias by lot; I see no where in scripture where the Lord Jesus 'chose' Matthias. If they were completely obedient in this matter, than I guess we can use 'lots' also to choose in making decisions in our churches. The selection of casting lots to determine the will of God in matters was acceptable in the Old Testament; but, in the New Testament, the choosing, or making decisions, by lot, is ceased and is not acceptable.

A careful study of scripture...especially Paul's writings...will reveal that there were other apostles besides the 12. A careful reading of 1 Corinthians 15 will reveal this...also, by paying close attention to the times that Paul refers to "we" (apostles), if one looks to see who he's referring to, one will see that others beside the twelve are apostles. That doesn't diminish the 12's importance or standing...it just shows that there were other apostles besides those twelve. Please consider the following... Just because a person is called an apostle does not mean he is one. Nor, the acknowledging that Matthiasd, or Barnabas, or some other men, were called Apostles, does not make them one. Only the Lord Jesus, verbally calling a man to be an apostle, is an apostle.

1 Corinthians 15

5  And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

 6  After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

 7  After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

 8  And last of all he was seen of me also,

Verse 5: he was seen of the twelve (this had to have included Matthias) . It certainly didn't include Judas Iscariot, and Paul wasn't yet chosen...yet...Paul says there were 12... Paul knew that Matthias was considered an apostle by the other apostles. Therefore, he referred to him as one of the apostles. 

Verse 7: He was seen of "all the apostles" (why didn't he say "the twelve" again?). This happened before Paul saw the Lord and was chosen. 

The Lord's brother James is most definitely called an apostle, but he wasn't one of the 12...

(Galatians 1:19) But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

...yet...

...the Bible is clear that NONE of his brethren believed in him when the apostles were chosen...

(John 6) 67  Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

 68  Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

 69  And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

 70  Jesus answered them,Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Peter said, "we believe." ...but one of them didn't. In the next chapter, we see this...

John 7

 1  After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

 2  Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand.

 3  His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.

 4  For there is no man thatdoeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

 5  For neither did his brethren believe in him.

The Lord's brother, James, became an apostle. In fact, he became the leader of the church in Jerusalem...yet...he wasn't one of the twelve. Again, I am not saying, nor had paul said, that there was not other ment called apostles. Can you show me a scripture that James had the authenicating signs of an apostle?

Make of it what you will. I'll still love you whether you agree or not. :) I know you do. Thanks for letting me know again.

Brethren,

If all of us in the New Testament Church are called to be an apostle, as Genevanpreacher has so stated, than I will start calling you an apostle. Hmmm? Russ Pittman (Genevanpreacher), an apostle: Russ Pittman an apostle of Jesus Christ. Hmmm?

Regards,

Alan, the Apostle (in jest of course)! 

 

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LOL! It's clear that to be an apostle, one must have seen the risen Christ.

I'm certainly no apostle, but I certainly believe in the risen Christ! AMEN! GLORY! HALLELUJAH!

While I'm here, let me state that I MOST CERTAINLY believe that Paul was an apostle! AMEN!

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2 hours ago, Alan said:

Oliver B. Greene, a well-known and respected Bible expositor among the IFB community, in  his commentary on Acts, Vol. 1, page 47 and 48, wrote. All caps, italics, and punctuation, is Green's

     I believe, with many outstanding Bible teachers, that Peter was a little premature in his action - that he should not have made this suggestion to the apostles at that time, and that they should not have elected Matthiaas to take the place of Judas. ... It seems to me that God did not recognize the choice of Matthias, because this man is never mentioned again in all the rest of the Bible. I believe that Paul should have been the one to replace Judas and become the twelth apostle. ... It was not man's choice, as was that of Matthias; but it was an outright call, commission, and ordination by God the Son - the risen, glorified Christ - for the office of apostleship: "Paul, an apostle, (not by man, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead)" (Gal. 1:1)."

Alan

 

Most of the apostles are not mentioned again after Christ's ascension. 

I believe the selection of Matthias would have fallen under Matthew 16:19- And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 

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28 minutes ago, Alan said:

Matthias was not named as doing signs and wonders.

Nor were most of the other apostles that the Lord had chosen...who do we see performing signs, miracles, and wonders? Peter is named. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any others...except Paul...yet the Bible clearly says that "the apostles" did. Of which, Matthias was included, numbered, and named.

29 minutes ago, Alan said:

Were they obedient in casting lots?

As I said, this has been discussed in the past (several years ago before you were here I think dear brother). The Holy Ghost had not yet been given, and Simon Peter was seeking the Lord's direction in the way that the Lord had given. In fact, Simon Peter said for the Lord to show which "he had chosen", and the lot fell to Matthias. Again, the Holy Ghost hadn't yet been given; therefore, they were still operating under Old Testament principles. He was fully acting within the God-given acts of choosing.

36 minutes ago, Alan said:

Just because a person is called an apostle does not mean he is one.

But Bro. Allen, the Bible...God's word...says that he was numbered with the apostles...the eleven; therefore, he was the twelfth. Nowhere does the Bible say that Peter was wrong...or the other 10 apostles were wrong...for including Matthias.

39 minutes ago, Alan said:

Paul knew that Matthias was considered an apostle by the other apostles. Therefore, he referred to him as one of the apostles. 

Yet, the Holy Word of Almighty God...inspired by the Holy Spirit who is Almighty God...has stated this. If we put this as just a human reference, then where does it stop? What else is simply a human reference not to be considered as God's word?

 

41 minutes ago, Alan said:

Can you show me a scripture that James had the authenicating signs of an apostle?

No, but I showed where James was called an apostle by Paul...under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I can't show you where...let's say...Bartholomew performed signs, miracles, and wonders...yet, the Bible clearly says that they were performed by "the apostles"; therefore, I most certainly believe that Bartholomew performed them.

We don't have every story of every act performed by every individual; however, we do have the fact that "the apostles" performed them. Therefore, I rest on the Word of God. The apostles performed great signs, wonders, and miracles...all of them.

Paul was an apostle. Bartholomew was an apostle, Barnabas was an apostle...and Matthias was an apostle...according to the Word of God.

:)

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4 hours ago, fastjav390 said:

Most of the apostles are not mentioned again after Christ's ascension. 

I believe the selection of Matthias would have fallen under Matthew 16:19- And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 

fastjav390,

Thank you for bringing out Matthew 16:19 to our attention.

I am of the persuasion that they selection of Matthias does not pertain to the words of the Lord Jesus as spoken to the Apostle Peter in Matthew 16:19

According to Paul the Apostle, an apostle had to have observable signs and wonders: i.e., miracles. Matthias did not have any miracles that are recorded in scripture.

Just because some think he was called an apostle in the early church is not good enough.

It is common knowledge, that the Apostle Paul had observable signs; wonders and mighty deeds, in his ministry, that are preserved in the scriptures. If the sign is not recorded in scripture, the saint in any age does not have to believe that a person called an apostle is a true apostle.

May I repeat, in order to be authenicated ('proved' as Paul states), that a man was verbally called by the Lord Jesus, he had to have the signs of an apostle. Matthias, the Mormon apostles, the Charismatic apostles, saints in the Baptist churches who think they are apostles, and those brethren who say He called them apostles, had to have observable signs. 

So, are there any of the brethren here on OnLine Baptist an apostle? Can you show me a sign? Is that sign recorded in scripture?

Brethren,

Are not the scriptures the final authority?   

Alan

 

 

Edited by Alan
spelling and grammer

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9 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Nor were most of the other apostles that the Lord had chosen...who do we see performing signs, miracles, and wonders? Peter is named. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any others...except Paul...yet the Bible clearly says that "the apostles" did. Of which, Matthias was included, numbered, and named.

I beg to differ with you. The Lord Jesus clearly gave even Judas Iscariot the power to heal.

Permit me to quote a passage or two from Matthew 10: 4-8, "Simon the Caananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." The Lord Jesus gave all of the twelve disciples, apostles, the power to heal in order to authenicate their message; this included Judas Iscariot.

The Lord gave Judas Iscariot the power to heal is also confirmed in Mark 3:14-19 "And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils. ... And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house." Mark 3:14, 15 and 19 

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My dearest Bro. Allen, with all humility, I will remind you that you said the apostle would be observable as having performed signs.Nowhere are specific signs attributed to specific apostles other than a few. The majority are simply attributed to...the apostles...which encompasses all of them. The scriptures are indeed the final authority, and on them I rest. 

I, in no way dispute Paul's apostleship, nor do I dispute Bartholomew's, Thomas', nor Matthias'...despite the fact that they aren't named apart from "the apostles" as having performed signs.

With that, I will stop the back and forth. In all humbleness. I bid you good evening, and I pray the Lord gives you a wonderful day.

Respectfully,

Dan

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Brethren,

There are only 12 Apostles and Paul was the 12th Apostle to replace Judas Iscariot. My original postings declaring to all that there are only 12 foundations, one for each Apostle chosen by the Lord Jesus, and 12 thrones for each of the 12 apostles chosen by the Lord Jesus has been totally ignored. As far as I am concerned, that settles the matter.

 

As I have tried to answer all of the other questions (which has been difficult as they are coming like rain from the skies), and the above scriptures are ignored. In fact, most of my answers have been ignored or 'pooh-poohed,' (see the dictionary if you do not the meaning of pooh-pooh).

 

My reference to the prophecy in Psalm 109:8, the words of the Lord Jesus in Matthew 19:28, the words of Paul the Apostle in Galatians 1:1, Acts 19:10-18 and 2 Corinthians 11:13 has been ignored.

 

I proved to Genevanpreacher that this study of mine did not originate with me. Genevanpreacher just ignored my quotation from a respected IFB Bible expositor (Oliver B. Greene), and never did admit his error. I do not expect an apology from Genevanpreacher. Except for fastjav390, the reference to Oliver Greene, and his excellent observation, was ignored.

Why is the excellent exposition of Oliver B. Greene being ignored? 

 

If Matthias is the 12th Apostle, or James, or Bartholomew, or Barnabas, or all of the saints, than the Lord Jesus cannot count past twelve and His words are just idle words. If there are more than 12 apostles than the Preterists are correct and they are not literal, but they are figurative, have a spiritual meaning, or a symbol for whatever any saint want them to represent. 

 

If all of the saints are 'apostles' like Genevanpreacher stated, than the Charismatics, the Mormons, the Catholics, and other brethren, are correct and the IFB Movement is incorrect. Think about what I just said and let it soak in.

 

Conclusion,

I explained the study on Paul the Apostle as the 12th Apostle to replace Judas Iscariot, more than adequately, in my estimation. My study on Galatians 1:1, Acts 19:10-18, and Matthew 19:28,  have been ignored and I have been berated enough. If any of the brethren want to discuss, sincerely, and without pre-conceived ideas, the above mentioned verses, than I will gladly do so.

 

Alan

 

Brethren,

My above posting (on my original posting where I mentioned the verse I posted were being ignored), was posted, evidently, as NoNicolaitans was posting his.

6 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

With that, I will stop the back and forth. In all humbleness. I bid you good evening, and I pray the Lord gives you a wonderful day.

Thank you. I will step back also and bid all a good evening.

Alan

Edited by Alan
spelling

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Matthew 10:2-4: Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Mark 3:14-19 : And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils: And Simon he surnamed Peter; And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder: And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite, And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him.

Luke 6:13-16 : And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

All the 12 chosen apostles were given power to heal and cast out devils, including Judas Iscariot. We may not know what each of the individuals did to fulfill this requirement, but they all did, as scripture recorded in several places.

Paul certainly does fulfill the requirements needed to be an apostle, and the fact that he was one is not in question. The question of whether or not he replaced Judas Iscariot as the official 12th apostle is the problem. I think part of the problem is that the words "disciple" and "apostle" are often used interchangeably, even in scripture (Luke 9:1), and also the fact that a few of the men went by differing names depending on who was writing about them. Jesus had vast amounts of people following him, many of whom are named in scripture. They were called His disciples. Out of those disciples Jesus chose 12 special men, which Jesus named "apostles", giving them special powers of healing and casting out of devils, and personally teaching them many things they would need to know after Jesus had left.

So the question is, if anyone from the NT who followed Jesus, cast out unclean spirits, and healed the sick could be an apostle, who are the specific twelve names spoken of in Revelation 21:14? " And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." Surely it's not Judas Iscariot, I'm sure we can all agree on that. So who is the twelfth man? Matthias? Paul? Someone else from left field? Maybe there was no human replacement and it's the Lamb Himself: Hebrews 3:1 "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus" ;) Probably not, but it would stop the back-and-forth! :D

 

Personally, I'm of the persuasion that Paul was the 12th apostle, replacing Judas Iscariot. :)

 

Edited by Rebecca

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1Co 13:8  Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1Co 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1Co 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

 

I know that I will likely stand alone on this, but it's ok. It is not a subject that will cause my blood pressure to rise either way. Just an academic discussion. But I believe that the passage in Corinthians shows us that as the scripture became completed (that which is perfect is come) then the signs that the Jews required (that which was in part) went away.

 

This verse has always fascinated me regarding the subject ... 2Ti 4:20  Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

Paul wrote 2Timothy not too long before his execution. He was old and tired and at the end of his life. Chronologically, it is possible this was one of the last books written before Revelations. I don't know, but there is textual evidence supporting the possibility. Timothy had to "drink no more water for thine often infirmities." No one to heal him. So why did Paul leave Trophies at Miletum when he was too sick to travel? Why didn't he heal him? There is no definite answer, and I do not pretend to have one, though some on here will probably be quick to pontificate over it, but if the signs such as prophesies, tongues and wonders were for confirmation until God's inspired word arrived, then it is reasonable to assume that these signs would dissipate and leave. The work of God would not, but the signs and proofs would. "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin". So if a "sent one" is still sent, but does not show the miraculous signs that Alan referred to, does this mean there are no more "sent ones"? If we have people saved and filled with the Spirit without the sign of tongues, would we not have apostles without the miracle signs as well. Personally, I think we usually call them "missionaries". 

 

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Jesus, by Name, was ordained as God's Apostle. Jesus only ordained 13 Apostles, which by His mouth expelled Judas from the office as the son of Perdition and then by His mouth later ordained Paul. The NT Jerusalem Church ordained Apostles to fulfill particular head offices. They were Apostles ordained of the Church and not of Christ directly. Their offices were also limited in scope and authority by the Jerusalem Church. Christ did appoint other seventy also but they were not called apostles nor by name and "the twelve" were always noted separately. 

We all can agree that Mathias was given Judas's office by the CHURCH but the Lamb called Paul by name, not Matthias or any other. Revelation says the twelve are the LAMB's apostles not the church's. These twelve are unique to Christ alone. Regardless of who else is called an apostle, even by the Jerusalem church.

Notice here in Paul's letters he makes it clear that he is an Apostle appointed by Christ and when speaking about the foundations he does not distance his Apostleship at all.

2 Corinthians 11:5 For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.

2 Corinthians 12:11-13 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. 12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. 13 For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:.....2:
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 and that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 for through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Edited by John Young

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Brethren,

I do want to thank those who have been blessed by the study and have liked it.

Hope you enjoy the benediction song, Ship Ahoy! It is sung by Brother Lonnie Moore, at the July 26, 2010 Sword of the Lord Conference, held at Gospel Light Baptist Church.

May God richly bless all of you.

Alan

 

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