Limited on the OB forum...

[Genevanpreacher]

Just out of curiosity...

I have started 2 threads now about Revelation 4. Both have been locked - the second after one response. Is there some way to bring out this discussion and let there be a discussion?

There should be no problem discussing this question if there is a biblical Baptist answer.

I shall phrase the question here if I may...

"Is the rapture of the church (saved people) the subject occurring in the first verses of Revelation 4, or is it the catching-up of one guy named John, to be shown future events, from a book in the Lambs hand, so he could write this book?"

Is there something wrong in the question?

Is there something wrong in the asking?

This is a valid question that people reading OB need to see.

I have asked HC to reopen the first thread, without response. 

The last thread, closed by someone, only lasted 2 posts - mine and DaveW's.

What is so scary about this question? 

Do I need to ask it in a different way?

Can it be answered?

[OLD fashioned preacher]

Responded via PM

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Well, I certainly do NOT know what was given in the "private message" response.  On the other hand, I have noted Brother Pittman's two attempts at asking his "controversial" question.  I am aware that this question originated out of contention with Brother Alan's thread discussion.  I do NOT know what the position of the moderators might be concerning whether this question should be discussed.

With all of that preface, in answer to Brother Pittman's question -- Although I STRONGLY hold to the pretribulational, premillennial rapture of the saints, I myself do NOT believe that the opening verses of Revelation 4 are speaking concerning that matter.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Genevanpreacher]

I read in another thread that was closed that this horse has been beat before.

I apologize if it has. I was evidently absent during that beating.

But it is good to know others agree with me.

Thanks.

[wretched]

The dim view of a mid trib aside, the meeting with the Lord in the air is described and foretold in so many passages of Scripture only a lost person could mistake it for anything other than a "rapture" (IM non-dogmatic O). That being said however, I doubt anyone rational would be dogmatic about Revelation 4. I think many simply view is as symbolic of the catching away of the saints. Not rocket surgery to figure out why they would. And hardly a sticking point in Scriptural evidence indicating a pre-trib meeting in the air.

It boils down to whether one has ears to hear or not. Some don't and probably never will so no worries, let them stumble along their merry way...

[Invicta]

I don't recall a scripture connecting the meeting in the air with any tribulaton

[wretched]

 

35 minutes ago, Invicta said:

I don't recall a scripture connecting the meeting in the air with any tribulation

I know you don't

[Invicta]

 

22 minutes ago, wretched said:

 

I know you don't

Would you like to show me one?

[Genevanpreacher]

1 hour ago, Invicta said:

Would you like to show me one?

Some verses that may shed some light are in 2 Thess. 2 -

 

1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,...

...8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Sounds like a 'rapture' and some awesomely severe 'tribulation' is gonna happen.

Especially when you have read 2 Thessalonians 1...

6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Seems to be pretty short and to the point to me.

Doesn't sound like the 'kingdom age' is gonna come to these folks.

 

5 hours ago, wretched said:

 It boils down to whether one has ears to hear or not. Some don't and probably never will so no worries, let them stumble along their merry way...

What about eyes to see the written words?

Ezekiel 22:2 -

 

"Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house."

And Isaiah 28 -

9  Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10  For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, andthere a little:

Edited November 15, 2016 by Genevanpreacher

[Invicta]

3 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

2 Thessalonians 1...

6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Seems to be pretty short and to the point to me.

Doesn't sound like the 'kingdom age' is gonna come to these folks.

 

Sounds like the judgement day to me.

[Genevanpreacher]

4 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Sounds like the judgement day to me.

Exactly!

[MountainChristian]

Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 

A day of comfort or a day of fear and trembling? 

[Invicta]

A day of comfort for the saints but a day of trembling for the unbeliever.

For the unbeliever  2 Peter 2:9  The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:  and .Revelation 20:2  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.  And  those whose names are in the book of life?  The saints.

For the saints 

1 John 4:17  Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Yes, a day of trembling for the unbeliever and a time of comfort for the believer.

 

[MountainChristian]

If the rapture is moved to Rev 20, then a problem occurs with 1 Thessalonians 5:9 “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,” and Revelation 16 ...."Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."

[Invicta]

The wrath of God must be the judgement on the unbeliever.  What wrath can be worse than  Rev 20 15   whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.  ?