The Rapture cannot take place at the end of the 7 year tribulation period

[Jordan Kurecki]

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

This is the most often used passage I see for people to try and prove that the rapture takes place after the 7 years of tribulation. However this is impossible and I will show how.

 

Many people will say that vs 31 refers to the Rapture, I argue that God is gathering his elect Jews back into the land of Israel, for further study you can see this in mutiple places, especially the latter portions of the book of Ezekiel.

 

But there is a more serious reason and problem with a Post Tribulation Rapture.

Premise #1

at the Rapture, believers are given new glorified bodies

 

^{1 Th 4: 16} For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

^{1st Corinthians 15:52} In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

⁵³ For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

⁵⁴ So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

Premise 2

No lost person will enter into the 1,000 year reign of Christ at it's beginning

 

^{Matthew 25:32} And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

³³ And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

³⁴ Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

³⁵ For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

³⁶ Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

³⁷ Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

³⁸ When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

³⁹ Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

⁴⁰ And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

⁴¹ Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

⁴² For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

⁴³ I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

⁴⁴ Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

⁴⁵ Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

⁴⁶ And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

Premise 3 

Children will be born during the Millennial reign

Ezekiel 47: ²² And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.

 

Premise 4

Glorified bodies do not reproduce children

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

 

Conclusion

If the Post Trib Rapture theory were correct, this would mean that at the end of the 7 year tribulation period when Christ returns, all of his Saints will receive glorified bodies because they claim this is also when the rapture takes place, after this the separation of the sheep and goats takes place all those who are lost and unbelievers in Christ will be cast away to hell at this time, That would leave us with not a single person left on earth in a natural body, and therefore it would be impossible for children to be born. the Post Tribulation Rapture theory makes children being born in the Millenial Kingdom an impossibility. 

 

[wretched]

Very well explained

[Ronda]

Amen, brother Jordan!

Another point to dispute the "post-trib" view is the "Yo-Yo" theory. If post-trib was the truth, it would mean Christ would have to take believers UP and then immediately bring them back DOWN. It makes zero sense.

John 14:2-3 " In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Colossians 1:5 "For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel"

2 Corinthians 5:1 "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Philippians 3:20 "For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ"

2 Timothy 4:18 "And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

These verses, and many others, present the fact that we will be taken UP to be with Jesus. It is a logistics problem for "post-tribbers" because what purpose would it serve for the Lord to take us UP, (we would barely get a peek at heaven) and then bring us right back DOWN for the millennial reign on earth. The pre-trib view is the only view which takes this into consideration. God is not a liar! His word is true! Christ ascended UP to heaven, we will be caught up together with fellow believers in the CLOUDS, we will meet the Lord in the AIR (1 Thes. 4:7) at the rapture. 

Maranatha!

[Ukulelemike]

On 6/4/2016 at 9:20 AM, Jordan Kurecki said:

Premise 2

No lost person will enter into the 1,000 year reign of Christ at it's beginning

 

^{Matthew 25:32} And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

³³ And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

³⁴ Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

³⁵ For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

³⁶ Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

³⁷ Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

³⁸ When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

³⁹ Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

⁴⁰ And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

⁴¹ Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

⁴² For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

⁴³ I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

⁴⁴ Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

⁴⁵ Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

⁴⁶ And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

 

 

This is where I have an issue-are these people saved? What was the criteria Jesus gives for them entering bodily into the Millennial kingdom? Their actions, their works. Not their faith, not because they believed Jesus unto righteousness, but because they had compassion on God's people during the time of their tribulation. No one is saved by works. They don't even seem to understand why they are being so blessed, that what they did for His people, was counted as being done for Him. These are the same people the book of Zechariah speaks of in Ch 14, " And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain." (Zech 14:16, 17). 

Now I believe they will become born again, since acting on compassion, and seeing Christ and the compassion He has for them, they will receive Him as Saviour-but that is my thought. But there is nothing that says these people are saved; they will need to be saved by grace through faith like anyone else.

On 6/4/2016 at 11:43 AM, Ronda said:

Amen, brother Jordan!

Another point to dispute the "post-trib" view is the "Yo-Yo" theory. If post-trib was the truth, it would mean Christ would have to take believers UP and then immediately bring them back DOWN. It makes zero sense.

John 14:2-3 " In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Colossians 1:5 "For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel"

2 Corinthians 5:1 "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Philippians 3:20 "For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ"

2 Timothy 4:18 "And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

These verses, and many others, present the fact that we will be taken UP to be with Jesus. It is a logistics problem for "post-tribbers" because what purpose would it serve for the Lord to take us UP, (we would barely get a peek at heaven) and then bring us right back DOWN for the millennial reign on earth. The pre-trib view is the only view which takes this into consideration. God is not a liar! His word is true! Christ ascended UP to heaven, we will be caught up together with fellow believers in the CLOUDS, we will meet the Lord in the AIR (1 Thes. 4:7) at the rapture. 

Maranatha!

You are assuming two things in the yo-yo theory, (which is still better than the string theory!)

 1: The the vials of wrath will take place so fact that we will have to return immediately, and,

2: even is it DOES, that time in Heaven works like it does on earth, which is not the case. If a day is as a thousand years/thousand years as a day to God, then how will time be measured in the timelessness of Heaven? If it is a day on earth, or a week or a year, it may seem like thousands of years in Heaven from the time we arrive, to when we return to earth. If, after the seventh trump, that signifies it is time to reward the saints, that means THAT is when the judgment seat will take place-if they are bound by time, then even seven years won't be long enough for the judgment of all saints, old and new testament.

[John81]

These are some good discussions. I've heard some of these points mixed in with pre, mid, and post-trib views. There seem to be many ways to consider some of these points and how they actually fit, what the timeline of end-time events is, whether Scripture presents them in order or not, how much of the puzzle are we given, what is withheld from us, and even right down to just what do certain words mean.

A few years ago, maybe several now, a ministry moved from a pre-trib to mid-trib position. The pastor laid out how in his prayer time and time in the Word on the matter he came to believe the Bible actually puts forth a mid-trib, not a pre-trib rapture. Very briefly there was some good discussion between him and pre-trib folks but it quickly descended into the pre-trib folks launching personal attacks and accusations. That pastors ministry suffered much, but he held to what he believed the Lord had shown him. Unfortunately the attacks (not attempts to teach, help, restore or such) was so terrible he ended public discussion of the matter. Many were turned away by his switch in positions and many more were turned away by the nature of the attacks by the pre-trib supporters.

Very sad. I believe if the open, civil, seemingly sincere attempts to come to biblical truth which were coming from all involved at first had continued there could have been much edification.

[Ukulelemike]

There are many who hold a pre-trib rapture as being an absolute fundamental of the faith, as in, if one holds to anything else, they are an apostate, wicked and hell-bound. And, I admit, there are those who hold to my position, or about any other rapture-timing position, that take the same sort of view, ie, if you don't believe it my way you're stupid, a heretic, unsaved, whatever. And it IS a shame.

We have on this board some magnificent minds with excellent understanding of many things in scripture-I believe we're probably every one of us saved, and have within us the Holy Spirit, who is able to make us understand all things. Yet to me, my position is sound and able to be supported by scripture, and I can refute other positions well enough to remain convinced at least in my own mind, while others are able to take an opposing position and refute it well enough from scripture to remain convinced in their own minds. It is a puzzle. I don't believe any of us are heretics, or lost or selfish or whatever, (and I pray no one sees me that way), so this is a conundrum.   My ultimate thought it, 1-it doesn't matter that much, or its not a fundamental, because apparently there is enough ambiguity to cause this, and 2, maybe there's a reason for it. Honestly I don't know. I do know that I came to where I am having been a life-long pre-trib rapturist, but after about a year of serious study and prayer, I came to where I am now, (and even as a pre-trib, I had harbored some doubts, though I attributed that to my own immaturity).

So, as John says, I pray that as we discuss this, that, while we may not come to a meeting of the minds, as it were, that we will all remain civil, loving and seek to find profit in the discussion, and when it becomes unprofitable, let us set it down and go elsewhere, where profit may be found, and God be not blasphemed.  

[wretched]

1 hour ago, Ukulelemike said:

There are many who hold a pre-trib rapture as being an absolute fundamental of the faith, as in, if one holds to anything else, they are an apostate, wicked and hell-bound. And, I admit, there are those who hold to my position, or about any other rapture-timing position, that take the same sort of view, ie, if you don't believe it my way you're stupid, a heretic, unsaved, whatever. And it IS a shame.

We have on this board some magnificent minds with excellent understanding of many things in scripture-I believe we're probably every one of us saved, and have within us the Holy Spirit, who is able to make us understand all things. Yet to me, my position is sound and able to be supported by scripture, and I can refute other positions well enough to remain convinced at least in my own mind, while others are able to take an opposing position and refute it well enough from scripture to remain convinced in their own minds. It is a puzzle. I don't believe any of us are heretics, or lost or selfish or whatever, (and I pray no one sees me that way), so this is a conundrum.   My ultimate thought it, 1-it doesn't matter that much, or its not a fundamental, because apparently there is enough ambiguity to cause this, and 2, maybe there's a reason for it. Honestly I don't know. I do know that I came to where I am having been a life-long pre-trib rapturist, but after about a year of serious study and prayer, I came to where I am now, (and even as a pre-trib, I had harbored some doubts, though I attributed that to my own immaturity).

So, as John says, I pray that as we discuss this, that, while we may not come to a meeting of the minds, as it were, that we will all remain civil, loving and seek to find profit in the discussion, and when it becomes unprofitable, let us set it down and go elsewhere, where profit may be found, and God be not blasphemed.  

I know there is another thread on this but that thread is specific to trumpets at this point it appears so I will ask these questions here:

Don't be offended please, just asking: Have you ever considered that perhaps someone gave you a pair of mid trib glasses to wear years ago so now you see all previously clear pre trib passages as mid? After all, it is novel and different and almost no one believes this way. (Contrary to what the internet says). It is only a couple of authors who write articles saying "many" pastors or churches are leaning toward the mid position. Baloney, I know of none and have not heard of any indirectly who have left the pre trib position. Who and where are all these IFB pastors and churches anyway?

I Thes 5: ¹But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. ²For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. ³For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. ⁴But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. ⁵Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. ⁶Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

I recall that you previously argued this passage as a proof text for your mid theory.

Revelation 6 (the seals in particular) will logically reveal that no one living at the 42 month point of the trib will be thinking "peace and safety". The seals are judgments through and through and poured out by God as clearly written. The only difference is that God indirectly executes them through man and beast. Rev 6:4 reveals that God had taken peace from the earth prior to the 42 month point so how could anyone say peace and safety after the trib has started?

Now, are you claiming the seals come after the first 42 months?

 

[Ukulelemike]

1 hour ago, wretched said:

I know there is another thread on this but that thread is specific to trumpets at this point it appears so I will ask these questions here:

Don't be offended please, just asking: Have you ever considered that perhaps someone gave you a pair of mid trib glasses to wear years ago so now you see all previously clear pre trib passages as mid? No I was raised pre-trib and always saw it as such. It was only after becoming a pastor and I began to more actively study it out to teach the book that I began to see it that way. I actually see it more of taking off the glasses I was wearing. But a valid question and I am certainly not offended. After all, it is novel and different and almost no one believes this way. (Contrary to what the internet says). It is only a couple of authors who write articles saying "many" pastors or churches are leaning toward the mid position. Baloney, I know of none and have not heard of any indirectly who have left the pre trib position. Who and where are all these IFB pastors and churches anyway? I didn't say there were many IFB churches and pastors who hold to the mid-trib position, I said there are many who are PRE-trib who hold to that position as a fundamental of the faith, and thus anyone who disagrees is a heretic. I could share some of the former friends who have sunned be as proof but I will keep that to myself.

I Thes 5: ¹But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. ²For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. ³For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. ⁴But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. ⁵Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. ⁶Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

I recall that you previously argued this passage as a proof text for your mid theory.

Revelation 6 (the seals in particular) will logically reveal that no one living at the 42 month point of the trib will be thinking "peace and safety". The seals are judgments through and through and poured out by God as clearly written. The only difference is that God indirectly executes them through man and beast. Rev 6:4 reveals that God had taken peace from the earth prior to the 42 month point so how could anyone say peace and safety after the trib has started?

Now, are you claiming the seals come after the first 42 months? How can I put this...I believe the seals are previews of what will occur throughout the tribulation and the falling of God's wrath, and that those things don't actually occur as the seals are opened. That probably sounds weird, but it seems the only way that we can have the kings of the earth crying to the rocks to fall on them due to the wrath of the Lamb, way early in Rev 6, while we see the wrath of the Lamb actually occurring in Rev 18. Each seal seems to indicate a key event that will take place throughout the entire 7-year period, coming attractions, if you will. I believe the actual events of judgment will begin with the first trumpet. I don't have time right now to go further but I will try to give a more reasoned account as to why I came to this view.

 

 

[Ronda]

Dear brother "Ukelele Mike"
I didn't see your answer(s) until earlier today. I haven't dismissed this discussion by any means. I do intend to answer, but fully (God willing).
I haven't been here much for several personal and health reasons. 
What time I have been spending online, I've been spending elsewhere in groups on other sites requiring more attention...

Many of these groups I belong to are full of people who are "baby Christians" (lack of better term).
There ARE ones who ARE searching for answers to Biblical questions (who really DO desire the sincere milk of the word).
And then there are mature Christians with which to fellowship with on some of these groups as well.
It's for those 2 people groups I keep on in most groups now.

But... what has been exasperating is that lately I (and others who formerly had good fellowship and discussion amongst ourselves and also with helping new Christians who truly do desire the sincere milk) have been bombarded lately by numerous professing "christians" that interject in between discussion, and demand a 5 word sentence "fly-thru" on a Meat subject when they, themselves haven't got a grasp on the sincere Milk.
There is absolutely no substitute for Bible study for oneself.
A person can listen to every sermon on the planet, watch a thousand videos, read numerous commentaries... and still not "get it".
The charts, the discussions, the fellowship... all being derailed by people who really DON'T want the answers, but rather would prefer to remain ignorant if they can't have it all spoon fed to them in a short summary sentence.
The Holy Spirit is not going to lead and guide into all truth unless that person submits themselves (and their attention) fully to Christ, throw out ALL pre-supposition, and rely on the Lord and His word as the final authority.
Time in prayer and Bible study just can't be substituted.

And also, the NEXT  problem in fellowship is that when there is discussion amongst a couple of people discussing a truly "meat" Biblical study (and the discussion has not yet concluded) multiple people chime in with responses that derail the actual discussion.
Being bombarded with multiple issues to address is not going to condusive to a 5 minute snippet of conversation which is sumed up in short because that wouldn't properly address the issues.

Why the big long tirade here?
I am not suggesting that YOU are one of those "McChristian drive thru" people.
What I am saying, is that if I do take the time to answer, I am hoping that I can present each point and fully address each point.
This entire last month has been one of physical problems, familial problems,  AND those types of people who want the McDonald's drive-thru summary of "fellowship", derailing every honest fellowship on other groups with either more questions (they really don't want to hear the answers to unless it can be summed up in a sentence or two) and THAT has taken up entirely too much of my time (when I've HAD time and ability) lately.a

To be honest... I haven't felt up to all of this, but I will keep on (God willing) as long as the Lord holds me up and is my strength.
AGAIN, I am NOT suggesting describes YOU... what I am doing is explaining one of the reasons for my absence, why I had not yet seen your answer(s),  and one of the reasons I've been busy elsewhere when time and physical ability permitted.
I do intend to answer! But I do intend to answer in full.
It won't be a 5 word summary sentence, (and no, I am not lumping you in with those "McChristian" types when I say that... I am merely stating that it's not a milk subject and requires a meat study, more lengthy answer).

So where to start...
I'll bring up some of the problems I noted, and then (as I physically can, and as time permits since I have less "alone time" to utilize now, and less physical strength to type or even stay awake) answer each one more fully in another post. (God willing)

First: 
There are only TWO people groups given in Matt. 25:31-46 SHEEP and GOATS.
The theory you've proposed would demand a third people group.

Second:
The people group entering the millennial kingdom (in earthly human bodies) to re-populate the earth.

Third:
IMMINENCE is discounted and not present in a mid/post trib viewpoint.

Fourth:
The yo-yo theory "Time" problem. Not the "time" in heaven (which is NOT subject to the same laws of "time as on earth)
But the problem resides in the "time" of the earthdwellers during the tribulation.

Fifth:
The grace age believers/church are missing in Rev. 5-18 during the WRATH of God.
Why would they not be mentioned as giving the gospel and witnessing?
Why would there be a NEED for the 2 witnesses and the 144,000 male Jewish virgin witnesses, and the angel from heaven preaching the gospel to earthdwellers in the tribulation IF the grace age believers were present to witness?

That's enough to start with anyways.
Thank you for your patience in my answering each one of these in detail (God willing) soon to follow. God Bless as you seek to serve and please Him.
 

[Ronda]

On 6/5/2016 at 5:46 PM, Ukulelemike said:

If a day is as a thousand years/thousand years as a day to God, then how will time be measured in the timelessness of Heaven? If it is a day on earth, or a week or a year, it may seem like thousands of years in Heaven from the time we arrive, to when we return to earth. If, after the seventh trump, that signifies it is time to reward the saints, that means THAT is when the judgment seat will take place-if they are bound by time, then even seven years won't be long enough for the judgment of all saints, old and new testament.

Dear brother "Ukelele Mike", 
I had planned on answering these in order... but since I am in a math frame of mind this evening, I'll take the liberty of answering the "TIME"
problem first.

Fourth Problem:
The yo-yo theory "Time" problem. The "time" in heaven compared to the "time"on earth.

The problem resides in the "time" of the earthdwellers during the tribulation.

We can both (hopefully) agree with the answer on WHERE believers go when they are raptured (no matter WHICh view one holds, pre/mid/or post trib) 

John 14:2-3 
2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Again... we (believers) go UP to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thes. 4:17) 
Where do we go? To heaven, where Christ Himself has prepared a place for us. (John 14:2-3). 
So far (I THINK) we are in agreement on that.

You (yourself) noted part of  2 Pet.3:8 "...one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day"

We can comprehend and agree that God is not restrained to the SAME "time" laws and limitations in heaven as we think of "time" on earth.
Of that I do agree. 

But we also have to take into account that "time" IS still measured here ON EARTH with specific parameters.

2 Pet. 3:8 does not suggest that there is a "no time" equivalency.

So even if (and I do not agree, but for the sake of argument) we were to be raptured at the end of the tribulation, along WITH the tribulation believers
Time (for us who are raptured, would be "heavenly time")
BUT "time" for those ON EARTH would remain a constant (within defined parameters).

So if an earthdweller were to see us be taken up in the rapture at the end of the tribulation... 
wouldn't "earth time" then have to stand still for them (earthdwellers)? 
As per your theory that as they watched us go up and then immediately yo-yo'd back down to earth for the millennium (to them on earth) would take no time at all?

Wouldn't the earthdwellers have to be in a "freeze-frame" type of scenario for this to be possible??? AND, If that were the case WHY then does John not note this in Revelation?

Also 2 Pet. 3:8 states "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day"

According to that verse, it would not be a zero time discount would it?
And if so where would be the scriptural backup?

Notice we do NOT see 2 Pet. 3:8 saying that "no time at all" is as a thousand years... Notice, we do NOT see 2 Pet. 3:8 saying that it's merely a minute as a thousand years.

No, Peter (under the direction of the Holy SPirit) says "a day is as a thousand years"

I don't see Biblical evidence of  a "zero time" equivalent in 2 Pet. 3:8.
Since you brought up 2 Pet. 3:8 as a "time" reference.

Let's use that mathatically.

Let's even be so bold as to take 2 Pet. 3:8 LITERALLY!!!!

If we took 2 Pet 3:8 literally:
a thousand years (to God- and those in heaven) as one day (on earth- to those on earth)

We could EASILY see how over the 7 years time (on earth) tribulation, there would be "time" (in heavenly time) for the bema seat judgment of believers.

If (as I believe) we (grace age believers) are raptured PRIOR to the tribulation, that would give the Lord PLENTY of "time" to judge/reward believers in heaven.

If (as noted throughout scripture) God uses a Jewish calendar of 360 day years to mark time (on earth)...

And if we used 2 Pet. 3:8 "...a thousand years as one day" LITERALLY to calculate

One DAY (in heaven) would be worth 1000 YEARS (on earth)

According to my calculations the 7 year tribulation period (on earth) would equal 2520 days (360 days x 7 years of earth "time")

EACH of those 2520 (earth time) days is worth a thousand (heavenly) years!!!!

That  would be 2,520,000 (heavenly) YEARS for the 7 year tribulation (earth time)
 and honestly, my calculator won't compute the number of actual DAYS (in heavenly time) that would be!!!

That would be an astronomical amount of days!
That is PLENTY enough time for the Lord to judge/reward grace age believers in heaven while the 7 year tribulation (in earth time) is going on down on earth.

BUT if we looked at it from your theory's perspective (we go up and come right back down) 

That leaves ZERO "time" (according to 2 Pet. 3:8) for the Lord to judge/reward grace age (and you assume trib age saints as well).

2 Pet. 3:8 doesn't give a ZERO "time" exchange.

It does NOT say "ZERO time" (on earth) is worth a thousand years (with God)

It does say:
"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

So let's take your theory further... let's say you allot the earthdwellers 1 minute of time (on earth) as we (believers) are raptured UP and come back DOWN)

(There is NO scriptural support for this, merely for the sake of argument, for illustration to show the unlikely situation).
I used that same formula (taken literally) to determine that one (earth) day is equal to 1000 YEARS (in heaven)

What would each hour of each (earth) day be comparative with in heavenly "time" (using the same 2 Pet. 3:8 formula)

We could then determine that each ONE of the 24 hour segments of "earth time" would be worth approx. 41.67 "heaven time" YEARS!
(1000 years divided into 24 segments = 41.67 years each) giving us 41.67 years (heavenly time) per hour (earthly time).

Then if we were to divide that further, each "earth hour" contains 60 minutes of "earth time"

So if 41.67 (heavenly time YEARS) were worth ONE 24 hour (earth time day)  using 2 Pet. 3:8 formula

Then one MINUTE on earth (in earth "time") would be worth .69 of a year (in heaven "time") 

Using 2 Pet. 3:8 formula.
(each earth time hour being comprised of 60 segments of time known as minutes) 
And .69 of a year (heaven "time") would be worth 248.4(earth time) years

(.69 x 360)= 248.4 OR 69% of one 360 day year = 248.4 earth time days equivalent.

So one MINUTE of "earth time" is equivalent to 248.4 "heaven time" YEARS (using the 2 Pet.3:8 formula)

That was a complicated equation... but useful to prove that it's highly UNLIKELY that God will would only use 248.4 "heavenly time years" to equate to one minute of "earth time"  in order to judge/reward His believers in heaven (if that were the case)

IF believers are raptured up to come right back down within ONE MINUTE (of earth time).

And even with that ( I gave it ONE MINUTE of "earth time" for the sake of argument)... 

BUT your theory gives a ZERO time exchange.

The pre-trib stance is the only one which makes any sense at all time wise... both "heavenly time" and "earthly time".

If you take 2 Pet. 3:8 literally... one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

And if you believe that the rapture happens PRIOR to the 7 year tribulation period...
That gives God 2,520,000 (heavenly) years to judge/reward grace age believer (using the 2 Pet. 3:8 as a literal equation) during the 7 year (earth time) period.

Which would be much more likely than the "ZERO" time exchange you proposed.

Before you knock the math... remember you brought up the verse!

And another thing I feel compelled to say... There will likely be one (or more) person(s) who would like to dispute the literal interpretation of 2 Pet. 3:8.
Here's the "rule" of literal interpretation I have used:
"If the literal plain sense meaning makes plain sense... use plain sense or you'll have non-sense"

I think it's MUCH MORE of an error to NOT take the Bible as literally as possible (when it's speaking in plain sense words about plain sense things)
NOT taking God's word literal is what leads to no reverence of His word.
If you don't believe that most scripture can be taken LITERALLY, the HOW can you believe that Christ actually DID go to the cross (literally), actually died, was buried, and rose-resurrected (LITERALLY)???

There IS symbolic scripture, however, when given symbolic scripture the literal answer can be found near (or elsewhere) throughout the Bible to interpret the meaning of the symbolism.

But no matter what I say, many will cling to allegorical interpretation... or worse... mix and match allegorical/literal hermeneutics to suit a theory.

Again, Thank you for your patience, I do hope to answer more over the weekend (likely on Saturday and Sunday) God willing. God bless as you seek to serve and please Him.

[Alan]

19 hours ago, Ronda said:

There IS symbolic scripture, however, when given symbolic scripture the literal answer can be found near (or elsewhere) throughout the Bible to interpret the meaning of the symbolism.

But no matter what I say, many will cling to allegorical interpretation... or worse... mix and match allegorical/literal hermeneutics to suit a theory.

Ronda,

Thank you for bringing out this important aspect of interpreting scripure using proper Biblical hermeneutic principles. Please note I said "Biblical." There are many types of "hermeneutics" used by different churches and teachers. There are good sound reasons why the New Testament Church is independent of religious hierarchies (denominational headquarters).

When the scripture is obvious symbolic we use the scriptures to interpret the symbolism (primarily in the Old Testament), when the scripture is obviously allegorical we interpret it primarily with the interpretation (usually found in the Old Testament), and when the scripture is obviously literal we interpret it as literal.

The mixing and matching of improper hermeneutic principles is not proper biblical hermeneutics.

Furthermore, the complete interpretation of Revelation through the symbolic method is not scriptural interpretation and has caused much confusion. This symbolic interpretation is now entering the ranks of the independent Baptists.

This confusion is not of the Lord. "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." 1 Corinthians 14:33 and neither is the interpretation of an individual according to his own private beliefs. 2 Peter 1:20 and 21

The rightly dividing of scripture interprets scripture. 2 Timothy 2: 15

Alan

[Ronda]

On 6/5/2016 at 5:46 PM, Ukulelemike said:

These are the same people the book of Zechariah speaks of in Ch 14, " And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain." (Zech 14:16, 17). 

Now I believe they will become born again, since acting on compassion, and seeing Christ and the compassion He has for them, they will receive Him as Saviour-but that is my thought. But there is nothing that says these people are saved; they will need to be saved by grace through faith like anyone else.

Dear brother "Ukelele Mike",

I decided to "kill 2 birds with one stone" with the 1st and 2nd problems I noted:

First: 
There are only TWO people groups given in Matt. 25:31-46 SHEEP and GOATS.
The theory you've proposed would demand a third people group.

Second:
The people group entering the millennial kingdom (in earthly human bodies) to re-populate the earth.

Those who are LEFT in Zech 14, are those who have believed, and made it alive through to the end of the tribulation.

(God has a plan to protect Israel in Rev. 12:9 for the second half of the tribulation)
Obviously, there will be those saved during the millenniu that do not live IN Israel, nor are they Jewish.

They will be the ones LEFT of the nations which come against ISrael
We know that ALL nations will come against Jerusalem Zech.)

Please consider these 2 scenarios:

Picture this 1st scenario:
#1 Jane is alive during the tribulation
#2 Jane lives anywhere on planet eart EXCEPT Israel
#3 Jane has NOT taken the mark of the beast
#4 Jane accepts Christ during the tribulation
#5 Jane manages to stay alive through the tribulation- hiding from the global antichrist government
#6 The nation in which Jane resides in is a part of the nations which come against Jerusalem (all will)
#7 Jane (of course) does NOT agree with this action, nor is she a part of it
#8 WHen Christ comes physically to earth (the 2nd coming) Jane is among the SHEEP

Picture this 2nd scenario:
#1 Joe is alive during the tribulation
#2 Joe lives anywhere on planet eart EXCEPT Israel
#3 Joe HAS taken the mark of the beast
#4 Joe does NOT accept Christ during the tribulation
#5 Joe manages to stay alive through the tribulation
#6 The nation in which Joe resides in is a part of the nations which come against Jerusalem (all will)
#7 Joe did NOT (himself) participate in coming against Jerusalem
#8 WHen Christ comes physically to earth (the 2nd coming) Joe is among the GOATS

Joe (and others like him) is a GOAT, We know his fate... and it is NOT to enter into the millennium.
Jane (and others like her) is a SHEEP and will enter the millennium (in human bodies)
She (and others like her) are the ones who are LEFT of the nations which came against Israel

Zech 12:9 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem."

Everyone from any nation who participates in coming against Jerusalem will be destroyed
Note: Jane did not "come against Israel" (Jane also didn't take the mark, and Jane accepted Christ during the tribulation)

Zech 14:1-4
1 " Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee."
2 "For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city."
3 "Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."
4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

There we see (in v.2) it is ALL nations that come against Israel.
IF God were to punish ALL people (like "Jane") who resided in those nations which came against Jerusalem, He would have to punish every single person on the planet (other than Israel)
because ALL of the nations will come against Israel.

INSTEAD, He has a special punishment for those who actually fight and come against Israel:

Zech 14:12 "And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth."

Jane (and others like her) are included in the people group of Zech. 14:16), who is left of the nations
Joe (and others like him) are NOT included in the people group of Zech. 14:16), who is left of the nations
Jane is part of the SHEEP
Joe is part of the GOATS

Zech 14:16-17
16 "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."
17 "And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain."

I had actually typed out and planned an entirely different answer for both problem #of those... but this is what I felt led of the Lord to answer.
I also want to note I did not mention those OF Israel (but I believe I noted in another discussion a rather lengthy meat study on 1/3 of the remnant of Israel being brought through alive until the end of the time of Jacob's trouble). Above (Jane and Joe) are not part of Israel... but both have 2 different sets of criteria.

Zech. 13:9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."
Those will also be SHEEP who enter the millennium.

Thus the answer to SHEEP and GOATS as well. There is NO third party noted in Matt. 25. We do not see "Sheep, goats, and chickens, OR sheep, goats, and porcupines. We see only 2 distinct people groups. Believers and non-believers. If there were a third party (such as those you believe will enter the millennium unsaved, surely a third party would have been given.

Thank you for your time, God Bless!

[John Young]

Heavenly time....so that's how Santa Claus does it!

[Ronda]

22 hours ago, John Young said:

Heavenly time....so that's how Santa Claus does it!

Brother John,

I have not mentioned "Santa Claus" nor any other man-made idea.
What I have noted is God's word in relation to "time" as we know it.
Time on earth in comparison with time in heaven.
I didn't pull this out of a hat or a cunningly devised fable.
I found this is God's word (which I take literally) Found both in the OT and the NT:

Psalm 90:4 "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night."

2 Peter 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Both verses show that there IS an exchange of time which (if we take His word literally) shows that one entire day (a 24 hour period consisting of one day and one night) on earth is as a thousand years in heaven.
I don't mind being mocked or ridiculed (myself). I'm used to it. When a person takes a stand for the Lord, and for His word, we can expect it!
But what I do find sad is the mocking of God's literal word.
Hopefully it was ME you were mocking. And if so, I forgive you.

[John81]

Most pastors I know and have heard preach upon 2 Peter 3:8 don't take this as a literal statement but rather as a statement that God is timeless, outside time, so that time has no impact upon God. What seems like a long time to us doesn't seem that way to God. Whether one day or a thousand years, it's all the same to God as He is not impacted or affected by time.