Salvation question

[Matthew24]

I have a question regarding salvation.  I believe we are saved when we believe in the gospel....the moment. BUT, when I got saved I didn't really feel saved until I grew more as a christian, my faith grew, strengthened, and confirmed that i was indeed a child of God.  Sometimes I doubt that I was saved at that moment, because I didn't feel like it. On the other hand, I don't believe we are saved on confidence, but all faith we have on Jesus and 0 on everything else. In other words, it doesn't matter how much faith we have, just that it all must be on him.  Thoughts?

[wretched]

33 minutes ago, Matthew24 said:

I have a question regarding salvation.  I believe we are saved when we believe in the gospel....the moment. BUT, when I got saved I didn't really feel saved until I grew more as a christian, my faith grew, strengthened, and confirmed that i was indeed a child of God.  Sometimes I doubt that I was saved at that moment, because I didn't feel like it. On the other hand, I don't believe we are saved on confidence, but all faith we have on Jesus and 0 on everything else. In other words, it doesn't matter how much faith we have, just that it all must be on him.  Thoughts?

There is a thread discussing similar but to sum it up, think of it this way. 

There is no sinner's repeat after me prayer in the Bible. It is heart felt faith that regenerates and not a prepared speech with certain magic words to be verbalized in sequence.

Ask yourself this, did you want to learn more? Did you want to obey the Bible? that means the Spirit came in and regenerated you.

OR, did weeks, months or years go by where you were less than caring about it? 99 times out of 10 (I know, on purpose)...IMO this earlier profession was only a seed sown and it got watered the more they heard the Gospel. They may not remember it but usually there was a point sometime after this initial "profession" when they heard more of the Gospel and the Spirit truly convicted and regenerated them. Think back in your case and you may remember it. I know folks usually don't agree with this because it is so opposite of what they have been taught but show yourself anywhere where any disciple in the NT pressed someone for prayer, lead them in a repeat after me prayer and later gave them assurance because they said the words. This was all made up by the devil propagating a head belief only false Gospel. Remember, the devil's believe in their heads.

Every example of salvation in the Word was seeded, watered and God gave the increase. I include the thief on the cross with this also. There is no way he could have known that Jesus had done "nothing amiss" without having heard of His message and miracles previously. Jesus knew that this thief's heart was "good ground".

This is what is so evil about the easy believism numbers bragging soulwinning churches. They have no concept of what the great commission is. They convince themselves that at least "they are doing something". We must go out but we must do it the way Jesus taught. He spoke of HELL more than any other single subject, we must also. That easy believism was born of pride and is all of the flesh and it is wide spread among IFBs.

 

 

[swathdiver]

We don't trust in our "feelings" or hearts, as it is deceitful and desperately wicked and foolish so says the bible.  We are to trust the Word of God and that if you made repentance before God and put your trust in Jesus Christ, then you are eternally saved.  The fruit you bear is evidence of that saving grace.

[John81]

When I was saved I knew I was saved but it wasn't based upon any particular "feeling", I just "knew"; which I attribute to the Holy Ghost indwelling me and bearing witness of my salvation.

[Old-Pilgrim]

On Friday, February 19, 2016 at 2:59 PM, Matthew24 said:

I have a question regarding salvation.  I believe we are saved when we believe in the gospel....the moment. BUT, when I got saved I didn't really feel saved until I grew more as a christian, my faith grew, strengthened, and confirmed that i was indeed a child of God.  Sometimes I doubt that I was saved at that moment, because I didn't feel like it. On the other hand, I don't believe we are saved on confidence, but all faith we have on Jesus and 0 on everything else. In other words, it doesn't matter how much faith we have, just that it all must be on him.  Thoughts?

I believe we are saved by faith in Christ, but assurance is a different thing, assurance can be lost, Hebrews 10:35  Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. 1 John 5:13  These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

On Friday, February 19, 2016 at 5:14 PM, wretched said:

There is a thread discussing similar but to sum it up, think of it this way. 

There is no sinner's repeat after me prayer in the Bible. It is heart felt faith that regenerates and not a prepared speech with certain magic words to be verbalized in sequence.

Ask yourself this, did you want to learn more? Did you want to obey the Bible? that means the Spirit came in and regenerated you.

OR, did weeks, months or years go by where you were less than caring about it? 99 times out of 10 (I know, on purpose)...IMO this earlier profession was only a seed sown and it got watered the more they heard the Gospel. They may not remember it but usually there was a point sometime after this initial "profession" when they heard more of the Gospel and the Spirit truly convicted and regenerated them. Think back in your case and you may remember it. I know folks usually don't agree with this because it is so opposite of what they have been taught but show yourself anywhere where any disciple in the NT pressed someone for prayer, lead them in a repeat after me prayer and later gave them assurance because they said the words. This was all made up by the devil propagating a head belief only false Gospel. Remember, the devil's believe in their heads.

Every example of salvation in the Word was seeded, watered and God gave the increase. I include the thief on the cross with this also. There is no way he could have known that Jesus had done "nothing amiss" without having heard of His message and miracles previously. Jesus knew that this thief's heart was "good ground".

This is what is so evil about the easy believism numbers bragging soulwinning churches. They have no concept of what the great commission is. They convince themselves that at least "they are doing something". We must go out but we must do it the way Jesus taught. He spoke of HELL more than any other single subject, we must also. That easy believism was born of pride and is all of the flesh and it is wide spread among IFBs.

 

 

Hello Wretched, Have you ever listened to Ralph Arnold Yankee? do you think he is teaching "easy believism"?

[wretched]

2 hours ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

Hello Wretched, Have you ever listened to Ralph Arnold Yankee? do you think he is teaching "easy believism"?

Hadn't heard of him friend

[Matthew24]

14 hours ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

I believe we are saved by faith in Christ, but assurance is a different thing, assurance can be lost, Hebrews 10:35  Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. 1 John 5:13  These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

Hello Wretched, Have you ever listened to Ralph Arnold Yankee? do you think he is teaching "easy believism"?

Thanks Old-Pilgrim. I think i agree with you mostly....and love Ralph Yankee Arnold. I think it is possible for people to be saved and them not necessarily believe it. As for us, we shouldn't assume anyone is saved...but help christians grow. I think in many peoples case it comes down to confusing preaching. Telling people that we must make jesus the master of our lives. All of the lordship salvation and do you bear the fruit of a good tree talk confuses and preaches a works based salvation. One thing the fruity people always forget to mention is that a bad tree can't produce any good, and  a good tree produces zero bad.....comparing this to someones works...as if saved people never do anything bad....and unsaved can't do anything good is a false teaching. There are many unsaved people who feed the homeless and quit drinking.  I'm sorry but these self righteous fruit cakes are annoying and think they have no bad fruit....proud, arrogant, and haughty is not of God.

[wretched]

16 hours ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

I believe we are saved by faith in Christ, but assurance is a different thing, assurance can be lost, Hebrews 10:35  Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. 1 John 5:13  These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

Hello Wretched, Have you ever listened to Ralph Arnold Yankee? do you think he is teaching "easy believism"?

 

1 hour ago, Matthew24 said:

Thanks Old-Pilgrim. I think i agree with you mostly....and love Ralph Yankee Arnold. I think it is possible for people to be saved and them not necessarily believe it. As for us, we shouldn't assume anyone is saved...but help christians grow. I think in many peoples case it comes down to confusing preaching. Telling people that we must make jesus the master of our lives. All of the lordship salvation and do you bear the fruit of a good tree talk confuses and preaches a works based salvation. One thing the fruity people always forget to mention is that a bad tree can't produce any good, and  a good tree produces zero bad.....comparing this to someones works...as if saved people never do anything bad....and unsaved can't do anything good is a false teaching. There are many unsaved people who feed the homeless and quit drinking.  I'm sorry but these self righteous fruit cakes are annoying and think they have no bad fruit....proud, arrogant, and haughty is not of God.

Make no mistake here fellas:

It is mere head belief in the facts of the Gospel that defines easy believism.

The absence of heart felt conviction by the Spirit is the issue. Unregenerate mental acknowledgement of the Gospel saves noone.

Put it this way, there are no instances in the Bible of anyone being pressured into belief or a prayer. This is no example of anyone being talked into a prayer.

The conversion examples are all born of preaching, hearing, conviction and belief with verbal inquiry beginning everytime by the recipient of salvation; IE, what must I do to be saved, or how can I be saved or who then can be saved, etc...This includes the thief on the Cross, who initiated his salvation also. Jesus didn't talk him into a prayer or ask him to be saved.

The scary part is that God's own people who got saved and their salvation was evidenced by their heart's desire to learn and grow and want to spread the Gospel, become confused by the false teachings of preachers probably like this Yankee fella (based on your posts) who have forgotten their own salvation testimony. Teaching a hellless, convictionless, heartless repentance or lack thereof.

There is no other way to be saved, there is no other way to know you are saved and there certainly is no such Bible idea that one can be saved and not know it. This is all purely born of satan and has 27-29% or the supposedly 30% of americans who claim Christ as Savior going to hell on a shutter.

The devil turned the Gospel into a cheap imitation just as he does everything of God. He neutered IFBs by turning witnessing into a quick sales contest and numbers reporting game to stop the flow of true conversions and keep would be useful servants who want to obey the great commission, useless for God.

Read all of I John as your personal proof to self whether you are truly in the faith or not. The book was written so that we will know that we are saved and the verse Old P quoted is at the end of the Epistle and explains that, "These things have I written so that you will know.... It seems you took it out of context as written and inserted it into your own context. Its true context is everything God gave John to write preceding it.

People continue to confuse lordship salvation with evidence of the new birth and they are not the same thing. The Bible clearly demonstrates that conversions create new creatures who will want to grow and learn and follow the Lord. Some faster than others but all will be interested in God. This idea that folks can be saved by mental acknowledgement of the Gospel, forget all about it and head back down to the whorehouse with no conviction is not of God and there is ZERO example of this in Scripture.

These people maybe be mentally "saved" according to this man made up definition of salvation but they are not regenerated and their names do not appear in the Book of Life.

We must witness but we must do it right, bathed in prayer for power of the Spirit and let the Spirit lead the person to the Lord (God gives the increase-not you)

Go in the flesh and you come back with big easy false numbers. Go in the Spirit after real importunity for the Spirit and souls, you will bring some 10, some 30 some 60 real conversions over your lifetime in the Lord.

 

Edited February 22, 2016 by wretched

[Matthew24]

3 hours ago, wretched said:

 

Make no mistake here fellas:

It is mere head belief in the facts of the Gospel that defines easy believism.

The absence of heart felt conviction by the Spirit is the issue. Unregenerate mental acknowledgement of the Gospel saves noone.

Put it this way, there are no instances in the Bible of anyone being pressured into belief or a prayer. This is no example of anyone being talked into a prayer.

The conversion examples are all born of preaching, hearing, conviction and belief with verbal inquiry beginning everytime by the recipient of salvation; IE, what must I do to be saved, or how can I be saved or who then can be saved, etc...This includes the thief on the Cross, who initiated his salvation also. Jesus didn't talk him into a prayer or ask him to be saved.

The scary part is that God's own people who got saved and their salvation was evidenced by their heart's desire to learn and grow and want to spread the Gospel, become confused by the false teachings of preachers probably like this Yankee fella (based on your posts) who have forgotten their own salvation testimony. Teaching a hellless, convictionless, heartless repentance or lack thereof.

There is no other way to be saved, there is no other way to know you are saved and there certainly is no such Bible idea that one can be saved and not know it. This is all purely born of satan and has 27-29% or the supposedly 30% of americans who claim Christ as Savior going to hell on a shutter.

The devil turned the Gospel into a cheap imitation just as he does everything of God. He neutered IFBs by turning witnessing into a quick sales contest and numbers reporting game to stop the flow of true conversions and keep would be useful servants who want to obey the great commission, useless for God.

Read all of I John as your personal proof to self whether you are truly in the faith or not. The book was written so that we will know that we are saved and the verse Old P quoted is at the end of the Epistle and explains that, "These things have I written so that you will know.... It seems you took it out of context as written and inserted it into your own context. Its true context is everything God gave John to write preceding it.

People continue to confuse lordship salvation with evidence of the new birth and they are not the same thing. The Bible clearly demonstrates that conversions create new creatures who will want to grow and learn and follow the Lord. Some faster than others but all will be interested in God. This idea that folks can be saved by mental acknowledgement of the Gospel, forget all about it and head back down to the whorehouse with no conviction is not of God and there is ZERO example of this in Scripture.

These people maybe be mentally "saved" according to this man made up definition of salvation but they are not regenerated and their names do not appear in the Book of Life.

We must witness but we must do it right, bathed in prayer for power of the Spirit and let the Spirit lead the person to the Lord (God gives the increase-not you)

Go in the flesh and you come back with big easy false numbers. Go in the Spirit after real importunity for the Spirit and souls, you will bring some 10, some 30 some 60 real conversions over your lifetime in the Lord.

 

But the facts are you can't know if anyone is saved or not without talking to them. There probably is some alcoholics that live at the bar and can tell you they are saved by Jesus alone. You can also find some "Ned Flanders" at church that can tell you they are saved because they are a "pretty good person".

[wretched]

1 hour ago, Matthew24 said:

But the facts are you can't know if anyone is saved or not without talking to them. There probably is some alcoholics that live at the bar and can tell you they are saved by Jesus alone. You can also find some "Ned Flanders" at church that can tell you they are saved because they are a "pretty good person".

Here is the point friend. If you are going to talk to them, talk to them correctly. If the drunkard professes salvation but upon further questioning never had a change of heart toward God and growth and wanting more than he is not born again and needs the seeds watered and prayed over.

The same goes for your Ned example.

[Matthew24]

On 2/22/2016 at 2:42 PM, wretched said:

Here is the point friend. If you are going to talk to them, talk to them correctly. If the drunkard professes salvation but upon further questioning never had a change of heart toward God and growth and wanting more than he is not born again and needs the seeds watered and prayed over.

The same goes for your Ned example.

Point me to the verses you use to say that you will automatically change your entire life once you become saved. Honestly, if a drunkard told me that he believe in Christ alone for his salvation I would think he is saved. I wouldn't question his salvation. On the other hand, Ned Flanders that goes to church every Sunday told me he is a "pretty good person", I would think he is damned because he doesn't get it. Matt 12: ³⁷ For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

The drunk is justified by his words, knowing he is a sinner but saved by Jesus. Ned is condemned for not putting all of his trust on Jesus.

Honestly, I think this topic probably isn't as cut and dry as anyone would like it to be...but I can't get over the thinking that we aren't justified by our works, nor do i believe, we do works, therefor we are saved.

 

[Matthew24]

I think there is probably 2 different ways we can judge if a person is saved?  

1. Their works, but we have to realize that there are many people that do good things that aren't saved and if someone doesn't do work it may only prove how much faith they have. "oh ye of little faith". If you don't go to church, don't read your bible, you may just be a bad christian.

2. We can ask them. Their words will tell you what they are trusting in.

[wretched]

On ‎2‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 11:34 AM, Matthew24 said:

Point me to the verses you use to say that you will automatically change your entire life once you become saved. Honestly, if a drunkard told me that he believe in Christ alone for his salvation I would think he is saved. I wouldn't question his salvation. On the other hand, Ned Flanders that goes to church every Sunday told me he is a "pretty good person", I would think he is damned because he doesn't get it. Matt 12: ³⁷ For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

The drunk is justified by his words, knowing he is a sinner but saved by Jesus. Ned is condemned for not putting all of his trust on Jesus.

Honestly, I think this topic probably isn't as cut and dry as anyone would like it to be...but I can't get over the thinking that we aren't justified by our works, nor do i believe, we do works, therefor we are saved.

 

You added the "automatically" and "entire" friend. I can paste a hundred passages to this post that explain the new birth, new creature, regenerated and how to know you are saved but I am sure you know them. Nowhere in my Bible however is there one example of a head acknowledgement that resulted in no forward motion. The only place this type of "conversion" is mentioned is in the parable of the sower and these people are the 3 in the parable that are not born again.

And this subject is cut and dry when most "Christian" preaching and soulwinning these days is people giving a cheap, mental, conviction-less false Gospel to people. And it is false when they give it and false when they provide their own increases to report numbers, knowing in their hearts that it was far from real.

On ‎2‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 0:02 PM, Matthew24 said:

I think there is probably 2 different ways we can judge if a person is saved?  

1. Their works, but we have to realize that there are many people that do good things that aren't saved and if someone doesn't do work it may only prove how much faith they have. "oh ye of little faith". If you don't go to church, don't read your bible, you may just be a bad christian.

2. We can ask them. Their words will tell you what they are trusting in.

I understand you and please don't misunderstand me. I am not talking about gauging people's salvation as a hobby or thing to do. I am talking about not cheapening the Gospel in our witness. It is free for the taking but it must be presented the way Christ and the disciples presented it, bathed in prayer and thoroughly preached.

Whatever you do with all this please do one thing very quickly: Stop convincing yourself that it is judging when it is really showing Christ like concern for their soul. We wouldn't give our loved ones that cheap perversion of the Gospel and actually believe in our hearts that they will "stick". Why would we do it to strangers? To report lying numbers?? I don't get it.

Heart belief only will save. And heart belief only comes from the Scriptures and the Spirit. And heart belief always creates action.

That drunkard bought a cheap "get out of hell free" card from a couple of church sales contest participants that know some tricks on how to get a "yes". That's it, no new birth there. Your Ned example is a religious lost person who needs the Gospel and prayer just as much as the drunkard.

Let's stop confusing ourselves over what the new birth is. It causes the same heart change in everyone if it is real. That heart change begins when the Spirit convicts and the person realizes they are getting saved from eternal damnation in hell, They will have a new desire to go forward at some pace. The rest is up to us to teach them correctly but even if we don't they will desire more and will ask for more. I recommend you study the parable of the sower.

If God's people take the Lord's Commission seriously there will be no partial measures and half done witnessing and zero confusion on the Gospel or salvation.

 

Edited February 26, 2016 by wretched

[Old-Pilgrim]

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 4:15 PM, wretched said:

 

Make no mistake here fellas:

It is mere head belief in the facts of the Gospel that defines easy believism.

The absence of heart felt conviction by the Spirit is the issue. Unregenerate mental acknowledgement of the Gospel saves noone.

Put it this way, there are no instances in the Bible of anyone being pressured into belief or a prayer. This is no example of anyone being talked into a prayer.

The conversion examples are all born of preaching, hearing, conviction and belief with verbal inquiry beginning everytime by the recipient of salvation; IE, what must I do to be saved, or how can I be saved or who then can be saved, etc...This includes the thief on the Cross, who initiated his salvation also. Jesus didn't talk him into a prayer or ask him to be saved.

The scary part is that God's own people who got saved and their salvation was evidenced by their heart's desire to learn and grow and want to spread the Gospel, become confused by the false teachings of preachers probably like this Yankee fella (based on your posts) who have forgotten their own salvation testimony. Teaching a hellless, convictionless, heartless repentance or lack thereof.

There is no other way to be saved, there is no other way to know you are saved and there certainly is no such Bible idea that one can be saved and not know it. This is all purely born of satan and has 27-29% or the supposedly 30% of americans who claim Christ as Savior going to hell on a shutter.

The devil turned the Gospel into a cheap imitation just as he does everything of God. He neutered IFBs by turning witnessing into a quick sales contest and numbers reporting game to stop the flow of true conversions and keep would be useful servants who want to obey the great commission, useless for God.

Read all of I John as your personal proof to self whether you are truly in the faith or not. The book was written so that we will know that we are saved and the verse Old P quoted is at the end of the Epistle and explains that, "These things have I written so that you will know.... It seems you took it out of context as written and inserted it into your own context. Its true context is everything God gave John to write preceding it.

People continue to confuse lordship salvation with evidence of the new birth and they are not the same thing. The Bible clearly demonstrates that conversions create new creatures who will want to grow and learn and follow the Lord. Some faster than others but all will be interested in God. This idea that folks can be saved by mental acknowledgement of the Gospel, forget all about it and head back down to the whorehouse with no conviction is not of God and there is ZERO example of this in Scripture.

These people maybe be mentally "saved" according to this man made up definition of salvation but they are not regenerated and their names do not appear in the Book of Life.

We must witness but we must do it right, bathed in prayer for power of the Spirit and let the Spirit lead the person to the Lord (God gives the increase-not you)

Go in the flesh and you come back with big easy false numbers. Go in the Spirit after real importunity for the Spirit and souls, you will bring some 10, some 30 some 60 real conversions over your lifetime in the Lord.

 

Wretched, I think you are over generalizing (at least for me to follow) I'll try responding to some of your points, (Ralph divides the word finely, he teaches more about the straight gate and less about the narrow path, but he does cover both, and hell and conviction), the Bible teaches that eternal life is a free gift freely given to those who believe & receive Christ as saviour, some people call it 'easy believism' because there are no works needed, serving Christ as a Christian is out of Love and Thankfulness, 'freely you have received, freely give'. Works added with wrong motives can be detrimental to the work of Christ. Galatians 3:3-5  Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? ….He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

>>>People continue to confuse lordship salvation with evidence of the new birth and they are not the same thing. The Bible clearly demonstrates that conversions create new creatures who will want to grow and learn and follow the Lord. Some faster than others but all will be interested in God. .<<<

2 Corinthians 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

This is a statement of fact, and is past tense just as we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places.

Ephesians 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

>>>This idea that folks can be saved by mental acknowledgement of the Gospel, forget all about it and head back down to the whorehouse with no conviction is not of God and there is ZERO example of this in Scripture<<<

Here is one example:

1 Corinthians 5:1-5  It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. There is also the christians who were being struck down due to the way in which they conducted themselves. 1Cor 11.

>>>Read all of I John as your personal proof to self whether you are truly in the faith or not. The book was written so that we will know that we are saved and the verse Old P quoted is at the end of the Epistle and explains that, "These things have I written so that you will know.... It seems you took it out of context as written and inserted it into your own context. Its true context is everything God gave John to write preceding it.<<<

I think the whole Gospel of John is written to ‘whosoever’ that they might believe and have eternal life.

John 20:31  But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

And The Whole letter of 1John is written to Christians that they might have assurance.

1 John 5:13  These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

John is how to be saved, 1John is how to have fellowship and not end up as 1Cor. That is as I see it, I don’t claim to understand or even remember every verse in any letter.

I'm not sure what kind of hard walk you are advocating, Do you go along with the sort of Gospel which Paul Washer or John MacArthur preach?

 

[wretched]

1 hour ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

>>>This idea that folks can be saved by mental acknowledgement of the Gospel, forget all about it and head back down to the whorehouse with no conviction is not of God and there is ZERO example of this in Scripture<<<

Here is one example:

1 Corinthians 5:1-5  It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. There is also the christians who were being struck down due to the way in which they conducted themselves. 1Cor 11.

 

I think the bulk of your post is correct but from a very different perspective than mine. I realize you have little understanding of the current and growing practices in IFB churches in America, many of which have allowed themselves more and more exposure to the false emerging rock and roll church movement starting really with Billy Graham many years ago, Mainly by reading their philosophy in books and articles. 

Your example above is not the example I am talking about at all but you don't see it because you don't see the type of witnessing that has become standard practice in the states.

The fornicator exampled in your post has at least been baptized and was part of the assembly. He demonstrated evidence of the new birth at some point and obviously fell into sin.  I am not referring to that type of person in any way.

For the men you asked about, I don't know of them.