IN THE BEGINNING

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On ‎2‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 11:47 PM, Critical Mass said:

The "Eden the garden of God" is not the same garden Adam tilled . . .

Brother Chester,

Were you intending to provide evidence from the authority of God's Holy Word for this declaration?  Or, were you intending that we should simply accept this declaration upon the authority of your human word?  (Note: In the realm of Bible study, the authority of an individual's human word is of no value whatsoever at all; therefore, I would not be willing, or even required by the Lord our God to accept a declaration on that authority.)

All of the references to "Eden the garden of God" that I could find in Scripture are as follows: Genesis 2:8-10, 15-16; 3:1-3, 8-10, 23-24; 13:10; 4:16; Isaiah 51:3; Ezekiel 28:13; 31:8-9, 16-18; 36:35; Joel 2:3.  In not a single one of these passages was I able to discern a reference to a heavenly garden.
 

On ‎2‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 11:47 PM, Critical Mass said:

. . . no more than the "mount of the congregation"  or "the holy mountain of God" (Isaiah 14:13) are Mt. Sinai or Mt. Moriah.  (Ezekiel 31:9)

There is no need for me to claim that "the mount of the congregation" and/or "the holy mountain of God" are Mt. Sinai, Mt. Moriah, or even Mt. Zion, since there is evidence upon the authority of God's Holy Word that a heavenly "Mount Sion" does exist, as per Hebrews 12:22 and its surrounding context of Hebrews 12:18-24.
 

On ‎2‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 8:33 AM, beameup said:

(loud buzzing sound) Eden the garden of God is not the same as the Garden of Eden,    (example: as there is a heavenly tabernacle [Heb 8:1-2] and (there was) an earthly tabernacle)

δέ εἰ τὶς ἀγνοέω ἀγνοέω                                                                                           1 Tim 5:1

Even as I asked Brother Chester above, so I would ask you -- Were you intending to provide evidence from the authority of God's Holy Word for this declaration?  Or, were you intending that we should simply accept this declaration upon the authority of your human word?  (By the way, I do indeed agree that there is a heavenly sanctuary, as per the authority of God's Holy Word in Hebrews 8:1-2.)
 

On ‎2‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 11:47 PM, Critical Mass said:

Essentially, what you are saying is that Lucifer was created sometime during the first five days (though the "sons of God" were apparently already around before that-Job 38:7) and then a couple days later rebelled? 

Yes, essentially what I am saying is that Lucifer was created, along with all of the other angelic beings, sometime between the event of Genesis 1:1 (my leaning is -- within the event of Genesis 1:1) and the event of Genesis 1:9-12.  Concerning Job 38:7, since this verse is within the context of Job 38:4-11, wherein the Lord God spoke primarily concerning His laying of the foundation, measures, and corner stone of the earth and concerning His setting of boundaries for the sea, this passage would appear to be a reference unto the event of Genesis 1:9-12 wherein the Lord God created the dry land, which He Himself named Earth, and gathered together the waters, which He Himself named Sea.

Furthermore, even if we were completely to discard the evidence of Ezekiel 28:13 concerning Lucifer's presence in "Eden the garden of God" as being the Garden of Eden from Genesis 2, you still have to contend with the evidence of Genesis 1:31 concerning the end of the sixth day of the creation work of the Lord God, in relation to the timing wherein Lucifer chose rebellion against the Lord God his Creator.  "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.  And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."  Was Lucifer one of the "every thing" that the Lord God "had made"?  Certainly, for all of the angelic beings are created by the Lord God.  If Lucifer had already chosen to rebel against the Lord God could the Lord God have assessed that he, as a part of the "every thing" that the Lord God "had made," was "very good"?  Certainly not, for the all-holy Lord God can and would NEVER assess sinful rebellion as being "very good."

[beameup]

3 hours ago, Invicta said:

OK, so What is  Eden the garden of God ?

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Ezek 28:14  Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God   Ezek 28:13a  By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God   Ezek 28:16

It is my understanding that earth is not the abode of God....

δέ εἰ τὶς ἀγνοέω ἀγνοέω

Edited February 5, 2016 by beameup

[wretched]

12 hours ago, beameup said:

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Ezek 28:14  Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God   Ezek 28:13a  By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God   Ezek 28:16

It is my understanding that earth is not the abode of God....

δέ εἰ τὶς ἀγνοέω ἀγνοέω

Ok, I must ask: Where does this passage claim that God was also present in this mountain? Or are you simply assuming this?

Honest question!

[Invicta]

14 hours ago, beameup said:

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Ezek 28:14  Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God   Ezek 28:13a  By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God   Ezek 28:16

It is my understanding that earth is not the abode of God....

δέ εἰ τὶς ἀγνοέω ἀγνοέω

Your great problem is taking verses out of context of the chapter.  The context is pronouncing judgement on the prince of Tyrus, i.e. Tyre.  

[MountainChristian]

18 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother Chester,

Were you intending to provide evidence from the authority of God's Holy Word for this declaration?  Or, were you intending that we should simply accept this declaration upon the authority of your human word?  (Note: In the realm of Bible study, the authority of an individual's human word is of no value whatsoever at all; therefore, I would not be willing, or even required by the Lord our God to accept a declaration on that authority.)

All of the references to "Eden the garden of God" that I could find in Scripture are as follows: Genesis 2:8-10, 15-16; 3:1-3, 8-10, 23-24; 13:10; 4:16; Isaiah 51:3; Ezekiel 28:13; 31:8-9, 16-18; 36:35; Joel 2:3.  In not a single one of these passages was I able to discern a reference to a heavenly garden.
 

There is no need for me to claim that "the mount of the congregation" and/or "the holy mountain of God" are Mt. Sinai, Mt. Moriah, or even Mt. Zion, since there is evidence upon the authority of God's Holy Word that a heavenly "Mount Sion" does exist, as per Hebrews 12:22 and its surrounding context of Hebrews 12:18-24.
 

Even as I asked Brother Chester above, so I would ask you -- Were you intending to provide evidence from the authority of God's Holy Word for this declaration?  Or, were you intending that we should simply accept this declaration upon the authority of your human word?  (By the way, I do indeed agree that there is a heavenly sanctuary, as per the authority of God's Holy Word in Hebrews 8:1-2.)
 

Yes, essentially what I am saying is that Lucifer was created, along with all of the other angelic beings, sometime between the event of Genesis 1:1 (my leaning is -- within the event of Genesis 1:1) and the event of Genesis 1:9-12.  Concerning Job 38:7, since this verse is within the context of Job 38:4-11, wherein the Lord God spoke primarily concerning His laying of the foundation, measures, and corner stone of the earth and concerning His setting of boundaries for the sea, this passage would appear to be a reference unto the event of Genesis 1:9-12 wherein the Lord God created the dry land, which He Himself named Earth, and gathered together the waters, which He Himself named Sea.

Furthermore, even if we were completely to discard the evidence of Ezekiel 28:13 concerning Lucifer's presence in "Eden the garden of God" as being the Garden of Eden from Genesis 2, you still have to contend with the evidence of Genesis 1:31 concerning the end of the sixth day of the creation work of the Lord God, in relation to the timing wherein Lucifer chose rebellion against the Lord God his Creator.  "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.  And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."  Was Lucifer one of the "every thing" that the Lord God "had made"?  Certainly, for all of the angelic beings are created by the Lord God.  If Lucifer had already chosen to rebel against the Lord God could the Lord God have assessed that he, as a part of the "every thing" that the Lord God "had made," was "very good"?  Certainly not, for the all-holy Lord God can and would NEVER assess sinful rebellion as being "very good."

That's a good point.

[Invicta]

41 minutes ago, MountainChristian said:

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.  And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."  Was Lucifer one of the "every thing" that the Lord God "had made"?  Certainly, for all of the angelic beings are created by the Lord God.  If Lucifer had already chosen to rebel against the Lord God could the Lord God have assessed that he, as a part of the "every thing" that the Lord God "had made," was "very good"?  Certainly not, for the all-holy Lord God can and would NEVER assess sinful rebellion as being "very good."

 

He also knew that man would sin but still created him, and man was part of that 'very good.'

Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
 

Edited February 5, 2016 by Invicta

[MountainChristian]

Very true, and that the devil would rebel. He gave us a chance to prove Him wrong.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On ‎2‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 8:40 PM, beameup said:

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Ezek 28:14  Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God   Ezek 28:13a  By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God   Ezek 28:16

So then, now we are employing the method of human fabrication in Bible study, wherein "the garden of God" is made equivalent to "the mountain of God."  Yet God the Holy Spirit very specifically designated "the garden of God" as "Eden."  Let us then do some actual Bible study --

The first Biblical mention concerning the garden of Eden is in Genesis 2:8-15 -- "And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.  The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; and the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.  And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.  And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria.  And the fourth river is Euphrates.  And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it."

The first usage of the phrase, "garden of the LORD," is in Genesis 13:10 -- "And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, even as the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar."  Since this is a reference in the very same book as that of Genesis 2:8-15, since this speaks about an area that is "well watered every where," which certainly would describe the garden of Genesis 2:8-15, and since this creates a comparison with a physical area of land upon this earth, it would seem fairly clear that this phrase, "garden of the LORD," in Genesis 13:10 is a reference to the garden of Eden from Genesis 2:8-15.

The next Biblical reference to Eden and the next Biblical reference to the "garden of the LORD" are both found in the same verse in Isaiah 51:3 -- "For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody."  Herein the grammatical parallelism seems to make if quite clear that "Eden" and "the garden of the LORD" are the same place, which would be the garden of Eden from Genesis 2:8-15.

The next Biblical reference is that of Ezekiel 28:13, which is the verse under question -- "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."

Then the next Biblical reference to "Eden the garden of God" in the book of Ezekiel is in Ezekiel 31:8-9 -- "The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.  I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him."  Herein "Eden" and "the garden of God" are certainly made equivalent to one another.  Furthermore, herein Pharaoh king of Egypt is poetically described as a great tree in this "Eden the garden of God."  Now, I would dare to say that it would not be valid to claim, even poetically, that Pharaoh king of Egypt was a tree in some heavenly garden.  Therefore, it seems fairly clear that this passage is referring poetically to "the garden of Eden" from Genesis 2:8-15, and that this passage designates that "garden of Eden" as "the garden of God."

What then may we conclude from this actual Bible study?  We may conclude that "the garden of Eden" from Genesis 2:8-15 is Biblically equivalent to "the garden of the LORD" and "the garden of God."
 

On ‎2‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 8:40 PM, beameup said:

It is my understanding that earth is not the abode of God....

The above statement is NOT an overly relevant statement concerning the correct definition for the phrase, "Eden the garden of God," considering that the prepositional phrase "of God" does not have to indicate the location or abode of God, but can certainly indicate the possession or ownership of God.

[Invicta]

Many years ago when my dad was alive he heard me saying that the cherub was Satan and the Stones of Fire were angels,  He said nothing but later took me aside and said "Be very careful when you interpret that,"  He never said anything else, but just left if for me to study.  That was his method.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

36 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Many years ago when my dad was alive he heard me saying that the cherub was Satan and the Stones of Fire were angels,  He said nothing but later took me aside and said "Be very careful when you interpret that,"  He never said anything else, but just left if for me to study.  That was his method.

Brother David,

In your studies have you then found another Biblical usage of the word "cherub" wherein it certainly refers to a human individual, and not to an angelic being?  If so, what passage?

[Invicta]

Brother Scot,

The whole chapter is about judgement on the prince of Tyrus, verse 2 and verse 12.  Verse 2 says "Thou art a man and not God."  Tyre was the main trading city in the area and this and its trafficking are referred to in verses 16 and 18.  The riches of the city are also mentioned, it is hyperbole.  It finishes with judgement on Zidon.

Edited February 6, 2016 by Invicta

[Pastor Scott Markle]

8 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Brother Scot,

The whole chapter is about judgement on the prince of Tyrus, verse 2 and verse 12.  Verse 2 says "Thou art a man and not God."  Tyre was the main trading city in the area and this and its trafficking are referred to in verses 16 and 18.  The riches of the city are also mentioned, it is hyperbole.  

Brother David,

Although Ezekiel 28:1-10 concerning "the prince of Tyrus," as per verse 2, who is indeed referenced as "a man." Ezekiel 28:11 begins a lamentation against "the king of Tyrus," who was referenced as "the anointed cherub" in verse 14, who was referenced in verse 15 as an individual who was created "perfect" in his way "till iniquity was found" in him  (which, for humans, could only be said of Adam and Eve), and who was referenced as the "covering cherub" in verse 16.  It appears to me that Ezekiel 28:1-10 & Ezekiel 28:11-19 concern two different individuals.

[Invicta]

3 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother David,

Although Ezekiel 28:1-10 concerning "the prince of Tyrus," as per verse 2, who is indeed referenced as "a man." Ezekiel 28:11 begins a lamentation against "the king of Tyrus," who was referenced as "the anointed cherub" in verse 14, who was referenced in verse 15 as an individual who was created "perfect" in his way "till iniquity was found" in him  (which, for humans, could only be said of Adam and Eve), and who was referenced as the "covering cherub" in verse 16.  It appears to me that Ezekiel 28:1-10 & Ezekiel 28:11-19 concern two different individuals.

Verse 16 mentions his merchandise.  Does Satan trade on earth:  Prince and king are often used interchangeably even in English history, kings have been referred to as princes. 

Why should these verses jump from judgement on the price of Tyre to Satan, for no obvious reason, then back to Sidon?  As I said it seems to me to be pure hyperbole.

 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

43 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Verse 16 mentions his merchandise.  Does Satan trade on earth:  Prince and king are often used interchangeably even in English history, kings have been referred to as princes. 

Why should these verses jump from judgement on the price of Tyre to Satan, for no obvious reason, then back to Sidon?  As I said it seems to me to be pure hyperbole.

1.  First, I would contend that most of the descriptions concerning "the king of Tyrus" could ONLY be true for an angelic being.  Furthermore, I would contend that, yes, Satan does engage in merchandizing and trafficking upon the earth; for he seeks to trade (deceitful) promises for service unto him and unto his ways.

2.  Although the terms "prince" and "king" CAN be used interchangeably, it is NOT NECESSARY that they be used interchangeably; for they also CAN be used to designate and signal two different individuals.

3.  MAYBE because (conjecture due to lack of Biblical information) Satan was serving as the angelic influence (unrighteous) behind the government and society of Tyrus at that time (similar to the unrighteous angelic being who was designated as "the prince of the kingdom of Persia" in Daniel 10:13).

[Invicta]

33 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

1.  First, I would contend that most of the descriptions concerning "the king of Tyrus" could ONLY be true for an angelic being.  Furthermore, I would contend that, yes, Satan does engage in merchandizing and trafficking upon the earth; for he seeks to trade (deceitful) promises for service unto him and unto his ways.

2.  Although the terms "prince" and "king" CAN be used interchangeably, it is NOT NECESSARY that they be used interchangeably; for they also CAN be used to designate and signal two different individuals.

3.  MAYBE because (conjecture due to lack of Biblical information) Satan was serving as the angelic influence (unrighteous) behind the government and society of Tyrus at that time (similar to the unrighteous angelic being who was designated as "the prince of the kingdom of Persia" in Daniel 10:13).

Bother Scott

I used to think that, but now I don't