Israel vs. Church Issue

[No Nicolaitans]

Hopefully this doesn't take the thread in a wrong direction, but may enhance the topic.

The point GP brings up here is something I've tried to answer, and tried to help others figure out over the years.

If the Apostles expected Christ to return in their lifetimes, which is the imminent rapture view held by most pre-trib rapture folks, why did they think this could happen while Israel was no longer a sovereign nation, and if they believed Israel had to be restored before the rapture why no mention of that?

This, as well as similar points have been a problem in part of the pre-trib rapture view. How can most pre-trib rapture folks claim the rapture could have happened at any time after Christ returned to heaven but then make claims that so many things had to happen before the rapture could take place; such as the restoration of Israel, creation of computers, creation of nuclear weapons, creation of mass communication, etc.? If all those things, and others, had to happen before the rapture could take place then there could have been no hope of an imminent rapture before the latter half of the 20th century at the earliest.

These are points that come up often but I have yet to see a sound response to such.

Hmmm...it's late, and I'm about to go to bed...probably shouldn't answer, because it'll be short.

First, everything that I've referenced has been about the return of the Lord...not the rapture...to hopefully shed light on why Israel isn't raptured with the church.

As to why the apostles expected Christ's imminent return during their lifetimes...okay...I'm not claiming I'm right, so no one have a nervous jerk-down on me.

Israel (though under Roman rule) was still a nation; they were in the land. It didn't need "restoring" while they were alive. I'm a bit rusty on who died when, but wasn't John the only apostle left after 70 AD? The rest died while Israel was still in the land (I think)...so there's that.

As to nuclear weapons...I've never bought into that myself. God is perfectly able to rain down destruction without man's piddly weapons...he did it in the past, and he will do it in the future.

As to computers and mass communication...I'm more accepting of that; however, for just a quick cursory glance, we know from scripture is that...

1. "knowledge shall be increased" (computers ?) - surely the apostles were aware of the inventions and ingenuity of the Romans...and the knowledge of the Greeks.
2. "every eye shall see him" (mass communication ?) - can't answer that other than to say that if the Lord told John to write it, John believed it would happen. Of course, this refers to when Christ returns as King of kings and Lord of lords...not the rapture. I can't speak for John, but all it says is that Christ comes with clouds and every eye shall see him. This is often attributed to satellites. John "MAY" have simply believed that Christ would circle the earth when he comes...who knows what John's belief was. What I do know is had Christ returned in say...57 AD, every eye would have seen him.
3. "the antichrist will rule the world" (mass communication ?) - those Romans were pretty good at mass communication in their day!

Again, I'm not saying that I'm right...just showing that these "scenarios" could have been answered.

I'm going to bed now. Goodnight everyone!

[Alan]

Trapperhoney,

Your friend needs to understand that God determines before hand His will for His people: whether it be the Sons of Israel or the saints in the church. It sounds like he questions the motives of God.

I wrote the following in my study in Revelation chapter 19-22 Study that may help him. Particulary Acts 1:6 & 7  (which is directed to the church), and Acts 17;26

All of the dispensations, or ages,  see Ephesians 1;10& 3:5& 21, are for a purpose. I fully understand some of the brethren have a serious problem with the word, and doctrine of, the dispensations, but, the different ages, or dispensations, are of the Lord.

Here is the link to the Revelation Study: http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/topic/23115-revelation-chapter-19-22-study/?page=4

 

The Times, Dispensations, Determined by God

“But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.” Daniel 12:4. The book that the angel was referring to is the Book of Daniel and the prophecies contained therein. When, “the times of the Gentiles,” cease the last week of years (see Daniel 9:27), will start. Then, God will completely unseal the times spoken of in Daniel 12:5-13

The Restoration of the Nation of Israel

In Acts 1:6 the disciples asked the Lord Jesus, “... Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?” Acts 1:6

The Lord Jesus gave them, and us, the answer, “And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the time or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.” Acts 1:7

The disciples were thinking of the promises and prophecies of Isaiah 1:25-27, 5:5-12 and 28:9-12. The Apostle Peter clearly states in Acts 3:19-21 that the Lord Jesus will remain in heaven until He comes again to restore the nation of Israel and commence His Millennial Reign on earth as depicted in Revelation 19:11-21

Paul added, “And hath made of one blood all nations of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and HATH DETERMINED THE TIMES BEFORE APPOINTED, and the bounds of their habitation.” Acts 17:6

God determines the times of the Gentiles and the times of the Jews.

The Gentile Church are not to, “observe times,” Galatians 4:10. The times, dispensations, in the Book of Daniel and the times of the 7 year Tribulation are only for the nation of Israel. The church is not on the face of the earth during the 7 Year Tribulation Period. That time, or dispensation, is reserved for the direct dealing of the nation of Israel as specifically revealed as revealed to Daniel in Daniel 9:24

“That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.” Ephesians 1:10 The present dispensation is the Church Age. Once God completes His wrath upon the earth during the 7-Year Tribulation Period the Dispensation of the Restoration of Israel will commence.

As the nation of Israel is slowly ‘ripening’ as a nation and is ready to bud, the events of the Book of Daniel are being slowly unsealed further. Please study Matthew 24:32 and 33 and verse 43

The two witnesses, (Revelation 11:1-11), will fully expound the meaning of Daniel 12:5-13 completely and announce the soon coming of the Restoration of the Kingdom to Israel.

 

Trapperhoney,

I do hope that the above information helps you in helping your friend.

Alan

 

[trapperhoney]

thank you for your help!  I am not familiar with Clarence Larkin's book Dispensational Truth, so if someone is, can you tell me if that would be helpful for us in dealing with this issue?

[John81]

 

Hmmm...it's late, and I'm about to go to bed...probably shouldn't answer, because it'll be short.

First, everything that I've referenced has been about the return of the Lord...not the rapture...to hopefully shed light on why Israel isn't raptured with the church.

As to why the apostles expected Christ's imminent return during their lifetimes...okay...I'm not claiming I'm right, so no one have a nervous jerk-down on me.

Israel (though under Roman rule) was still a nation; they were in the land. It didn't need "restoring" while they were alive. I'm a bit rusty on who died when, but wasn't John the only apostle left after 70 AD? The rest died while Israel was still in the land (I think)...so there's that.

As to nuclear weapons...I've never bought into that myself. God is perfectly able to rain down destruction without man's piddly weapons...he did it in the past, and he will do it in the future.

As to computers and mass communication...I'm more accepting of that; however, for just a quick cursory glance, we know from scripture is that...

1. "knowledge shall be increased" (computers ?) - surely the apostles were aware of the inventions and ingenuity of the Romans...and the knowledge of the Greeks.
2. "every eye shall see him" (mass communication ?) - can't answer that other than to say that if the Lord told John to write it, John believed it would happen. Of course, this refers to when Christ returns as King of kings and Lord of lords...not the rapture. I can't speak for John, but all it says is that Christ comes with clouds and every eye shall see him. This is often attributed to satellites. John "MAY" have simply believed that Christ would circle the earth when he comes...who knows what John's belief was. What I do know is had Christ returned in say...57 AD, every eye would have seen him.
3. "the antichrist will rule the world" (mass communication ?) - those Romans were pretty good at mass communication in their day!

Again, I'm not saying that I'm right...just showing that these "scenarios" could have been answered.

I'm going to bed now. Goodnight everyone!

I appreciate your taking the time to answer before retiring for the night.

Even the disciples asked Jesus when He would restore the kingdom so it would seem they believed Israel was in need of restoration as they were not a free nation at the time and we know there were Jews scattered about away from Israel.

It may have been David Jeremiah, not sure, who said that God doesn't need man's technology to accomplish His plans. As you mentioned, God can bring about destruction without the need for nuclear weapons, and David Jeremiah said that if the God of all creation can't bend light refraction to His will enabling the world to see Christ return then He would be a rather limited God.

My point in bringing this up is the seeming contradiction coming from so many who speak for the pre-trib rapture view as they present the idea that the return of Christ has been imminent since He returned to heaven, claiming that His return has/is the next event on the prophetic calendar and nothing had/has to happen before then, but then proceeding to point to a half dozen or more things that had to happen before the return of Christ.

It's really little wonder so many are confused by this. Add to this confusion the repeated declarations that Christ is returning, probably this year, maybe next, which have been constant since at least the 1970s, and it's understandable that many are either moving away from a pre-trib rapture view or are turning away from anything prophetic.

Could Christ have returned before 1948? How about before Israel took control of Jerusalem in the 60s? The teachings on this are inconsistent and that has opened the door to confusion, debate, loss of trust, loss of hope, and other bad things among some. For the lost looking on it's opened the door for ridicule.

It would seem we need a more consistent, better worded stance in this area.

[Alan]

thank you for your help!  I am not familiar with Clarence Larkin's book Dispensational Truth, so if someone is, can you tell me if that would be helpful for us in dealing with this issue?

Tapperhoney,

Wow! That is a big question! I can answer it, but, it would take time. And, it we took the time I would be ridiculed from post to post as some of the brethern have a serious issue with the Dispensations, or Ages, in Ephesians. Some of the the brethren think Scofield started it.

One question and one suggestion.

Do you have a copy of Larkin's, "Dispensational Truth?"

I would suggest your friend read the book of  Ephesians very carefully.

Alan

[Alan]

My point in bringing this up is the seeming contradiction coming from so many who speak for the pre-trib rapture view as they present the idea that the return of Christ has been imminent since He returned to heaven, claiming that His return has/is the next event on the prophetic calendar and nothing had/has to happen before then, but then proceeding to point to a half dozen or more things that had to happen before the return of Christ.

It's really little wonder so many are confused by this. Add to this confusion the repeated declarations that Christ is returning, probably this year, maybe next, which have been constant since at least the 1970s, and it's understandable that many are either moving away from a pre-trib rapture view or are turning away from anything prophetic.

Could Christ have returned before 1948? How about before Israel took control of Jerusalem in the 60s? The teachings on this are inconsistent and that has opened the door to confusion, debate, loss of trust, loss of hope, and other bad things among some. For the lost looking on it's opened the door for ridicule.

It would seem we need a more consistent, better worded stance in this area.

John81,

My sentiments exactly. Most of the folks bringing this confusion in the pre-trib rature view have been charismatic charlatans and others seeking filthy lucre off of the bible. These teachers have confused the churches, caused undue harm to the cause of Christ, and are allowing the pre-trib rapture belief open to ridicule. I remember watching pastor Steven Anderson's video. During most of the video he kept making references to the "End Times" series books and then wrongly accused fundamentalists of being of the same cloth.

But, that still does not change the truth.

[No Nicolaitans]

My point in bringing this up is the seeming contradiction coming from so many who speak for the pre-trib rapture view as they present the idea that the return of Christ has been imminent since He returned to heaven, claiming that His return has/is the next event on the prophetic calendar and nothing had/has to happen before then, but then proceeding to point to a half dozen or more things that had to happen before the return of Christ.

I see. I would assume that these people are applying the "signs" (that are given for Christ's second coming) to the rapture instead of where they rightly belong; which is, when Christ returns as King of kings and Lord of lords.

[trapperhoney]

Do you have a copy of Larkin's, "Dispensational Truth?"

No, I don't have a copy yet, which is why I was asking if it would be helpful to have....

[Alan]

Almost all used Christian bookstores have copies avalible. While in Missorui I go to Steels Used Books; they are huge. Here is there website (you can order online): http://www.steelsbooks.com/

The one thing that I disagree with Larkin's Dispensational Truth is the section entitled, "Generation," or the, "Creative Ages." This section deals with his belief of the "Pre-Adamic Earth." I feel his belief in the, "Gap Theory," and his miss-interpretation of 2 Peter 3:5 & 6, and is the only detriment to the book. Larkin also has a section entitled, "Dispensational Teaching of the Great Pyramid," that I do not entirely agree with also. But, that section is not doctrinal. So, I will not quibble over it.

As with his other books, once you examine the scriptures very closely and get the right context, you can understand the scriptures better. Larkin's books must be studied and not just glanced overly lightly.

God bless.

Alan

 

[Genevanpreacher]

Ah! Larkin begins to bring forth other 'insights' into the unknown. Thanks Alan for bringing out that new information on our Mr. Larkin.

A happy GP.

[trapperhoney]

The one thing that I disagree with Larkin's Dispensational Truth is the section entitled, "Generation," or the, "Creative Ages." This section deals with his belief of the "Pre-Adamic Earth." I feel his belief in the, "Gap Theory," and his miss-interpretation of 2 Peter 3:5 & 6, and is the only detriment to the book.

I started reading my copy of "Rightly Dividing" today and was very disappointed to see him teaching the gap theory.  *sigh*  it is so hard to find someone who is solid on every issue.

Thanks for the info.  I found Dispensational Truth on amazon.com at a good price....

[LindaR]

trapperhoney....check out Dr. Renald E. Showers' book "There Really Is A Difference: A Comparison of Covenant and Dispensational Theology"  Copyright ©1990 by The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, Inc., Bellmawr, NJ 08099  Tenth printing 2006.

That's the best book I've read on Dispensationalism.  I refer to it quite often.

I believe it's available on Amazon, The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, Inc. (www.foi.org) and Jewish Awareness Ministries (www.jewishawareness.org).

 

[trapperhoney]

trapperhoney....check out Dr. Renald E. Showers' book "There Really Is A Difference: A Comparison of Covenant and Dispensational Theology"  Copyright ©1990 by The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, Inc., Bellmawr, NJ 08099  Tenth printing 2006.

That's the best book I've read on Dispensationalism.  I refer to it quite often.

I believe it's available on Amazon, The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, Inc. (www.foi.org) and Jewish Awareness Ministries (www.jewishawareness.org).

 

I have a copy.  It was required reading in one of my theology classes.  I have to admit I didn't really pay much attention to it because where I was from I had never heard of covenant theology until I went to Bible college and it wasn't a pressing issue for me.  Now it seems to be EVERYWHERE and it is so easily creeping onto Baptist churches....

[John81]

I see. I would assume that these people are applying the "signs" (that are given for Christ's second coming) to the rapture instead of where they rightly belong; which is, when Christ returns as King of kings and Lord of lords.

Yes, I see a lot of mixing of these events in the preaching and writings of some.

Thus far, I've found Dr. David Jeremiah's teaching (preaching, writing) on this topic to be among the clearest and most biblically sound.

[Genevanpreacher]

I have a copy.  It was required reading in one of my theology classes.  I have to admit I didn't really pay much attention to it because where I was from I had never heard of covenant theology until I went to Bible college and it wasn't a pressing issue for me.  Now it seems to be EVERYWHERE and it is so easily creeping onto Baptist churches....

Yes, the truth is really growing and I hope you let the Lord lead you and 'hubby' into the right belief. Which ever one he leads you to.

Just follow your own conviction from your own understanding of the scriptures and let the word of God have preeminence over the word of man.