Debtors to the Jews.

[Alan]

The Apostle Paul was a Jew. Paul was part of the Jewish remnant of the elect sons of israel. Every generation since Paul's age a remnant of Jews have been saved: Romans 11:1-12 At the time of Paul's ministry the Jews were enemies of the gospel, Romans 11:28 and Paul was severely persecuted by the Jews in almost every place he preached the gospel. This is common knowledge so I will only give one incident: Acts 12:44-50 The persecution endured by Paul from the hands of the Jews were physical, spiritual, and they blaspehemed and contradicted Paul at every opportunity.

So, in spite of the extreme persecution that Paul went through, and after Paul plainly stated that the Jews were enemies of the gospel, Paul still said that we, every saint, in every age, in every country, were debtors to the Jews.

"But now I [Paul] go unto Jerusalem to minister to the saints. For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certian contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiriutal things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things." Romans 15:25-27

Furthermore, in relation to this, even though we are not under the Law, Galatians 2:19, 3:10 & 25 etc.. Paul, when he went to Jerusalem on his last visit to Jerusalem to deliver the contribution mentioned in Romans15:25-27 went into the Temple and performed the ceremonial rites according to the Old Testament Law. Even though Paul preached, taught and wrote that the saints are not under the Law he still realized that the Law, and the Temple ceremonies, had spiritual applications and used these spiritual applications in his preaching at every opportunity.

Paul stated that Christians are debtors to the Jews, lost or saved, whether a person says they are elect or not-elect for the following reasons.

1. Previously Paul taught that after a Gentile is saved he is grafted into the Olive Tree, the nation of Israel. Romans 11:24

2. All, 100 per cent, of the spiritual blessings bestowed on a Gentile at the moment of salvation comes from the Jews. Romans 15:27 the Lord Jesus Christ was a Jew. a physical descendent child of the Patriarchs and of the lineage of David.

3. The Oracles of God, the Old Testament, and the New Testament, were all written by a Jewish man. "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcism? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." Romans 3:1 & 2 

Before someone mentions that the Apostle John was a Gentile I must correct that error. The Apostle John was a Jew. Yes, I understand that John is a Gentile name; but that does not make him a Gentle by birth. So was John the Baptist, and Paul Gentile names. Does that make John the Baptist and Paul the apostle Gentiles? Here on Taiwan I have a legal Chinese name, registered with the government of Taiwan, and is used for all legal documents. Does that make me a Chinese? 

4. The doctrine of adoption is from the Jews. Romans 9:4, Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption..." When a Gentile gets saved he is adopted into the family of God as a son Abraham. Paul wrote, "To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons." Galatians 4:5 and, "Know ye therefore that which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." Galatians 3:7

5. All of the glory ahead of the every saved Gentile is through the Jews. "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and glory..." Romans 9:4 Is heaven a glorious place? The spiritual blessing of heaven comes from a Jew.

6. All of the Covenants are given to the Jews. "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants..." Romans 9:4 All of the covenants in the Old Testament are still in force and have not been annulled or given to the church. The Reformed Theology Brethrern, the Replacement Theology brethren are in total error and are teaching unsound doctrine.

The New Covenant in Hebrews 8:8 is also a Jewish Covenant.  The New covenant is given to the House of Israel with the House of Judah. It is not given to the church at all. Hebrews 8:8, "For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."

7. The service of God. "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God..." Romans 9:4

The services of the Temple by God was given for a teaching platform of the  holiness of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the works of Christ. This is why in all of his Epistles Paul the Apostle emphasized the law and the Temple. If a person wants to learn more about Jesus, the Book of Hebrews, and the Book of Revelation, and the Book of Romans, he needs to read the Law real close with a humble attitude.

8. The promises of God. "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises." Romans 9:4

The Old Tesament not only includes the Law of God, but it includes many precepts and promises. Some of the promises are given to every saint and some of these promises are given to the nation of Israel. The context, and wording of the promises tell whom they given to.

All of the promises of the New Testament was also given by a Jew; the Lord Jesus. 

9.  All of the Patriarchs were Jews. "Whose are the fathers..." Romans 9:5 All of the promises, covenants, precepts, were given by Jews to the Gentiles.

10. "Whose are the fathers, and of whom concerning the flesh christ blessed for ever. Amen."..." Romans 9:5 The Lord Jesus was of Jewish lineage.

Therefore, like Paul the Apostle and the early church, we need to be thankful for the Jews, the nation of Israel, and realize that we in debt to them and help them in carnal things. these carnal things include financial aid, military aid, and any other kind of aid.

Alan

Edited September 14, 2015 by Alan

[Genevanpreacher]

 and realize that we in debt to them and help them in carnal things. these carnal things include financial aid, military aid, and any other kind of aid.

Alan

To quote a friend of mine - Rubbish!

[Ronda]

Amen and AMEN! Brother Alan!!!!!   I'd like to add even more clarification to how much God loved/loves/and will still love the nation of Israel and the Jews.    Zechariah 2 is excellent reading.  It tells us how dear to His heart Israel is!  It also tells us of things to come (which haven't yet happened) in which God will again choose Jerusalem and His chosen people!  He calls them the "apple of his eye."   Israel is very precious to God; and they who vex and harass him are as they who hurt that which God prizes highly, and which a mere touch offends and injures. The word of God is not to be taken lightly, nor should it be twisted or even omitted (as I've seen some attempt to do).

Zechariah 2:
8 "For thus saith the Lord of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye."

9 "For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me."

10 "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord."

11 "And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee."

12 " And the Lord shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again."

 

[Alan]

Thank you Ronda for quoting Zechariah 2:8. I was going to quote that verse in my next posting!

Zechariah 2:8 is the favorite verse of the Jewish ministry called, "The Hope of Israel." Here is the link of the Hope of Israel Ministry: http://hopeofisrael.net/news/

 

 

 

[LindaR]

Great post and topic Bro. Allan!

I do have a question about point #1:

1. Previously Paul taught that after a Gentile is saved he is grafted into the Olive Tree, the nation of Israel. Romans 11:24

I don't believe the Olive Tree represents the nation of Israel.  If the Olive Tree represented the nation of Israel, would that not mean that saved Gentiles would be grafted into the nation of Israel?  Wouldn't that teaching make the Body of Christ (which is mostly Gentile now) "spiritual" Jews and/or "spiritual" Israel?  Isn't that Replacement Theology or close to it?

Here's a link to a verse by verse study of the Book of Romans....I'm going to post the link to Chapter 11:

 http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/romans/romans11.htm

Romans 11:23-24

Paul now gets back to his main point about the future restoration of the nation Israel (compare verses 12 and 15). "They" refers to Israel (the Jews). Today the Jews are in unbelief (the majority of them, though not all of them), and this is the reason they are not part of the olive tree. But if they do not remain in unbelief (that is, if they trust Christ as Saviour), then they shall be grafted in to the olive tree and once again will be in the place of blessing, partaking of the root and fatness of the olive tree (compare v.17). They were put out because of unbelief (v.20) and they can get back in by believing (v.23). The God who removed them and broke them off is certainly able to graft them in again. In fact, the grafting in of the natural branches is less remarkable than the grafting in of unnatural, wild branches. What God has done to the Gentiles is "contrary to nature." How much more will the Jews (the natural branches) be grafted into their own olive tree? After all, that’s where they belong!

Note on grafting: To graft (verb) means to insert a shoot or bud of one plant or tree as a graft into another plant or tree, where the graft (noun) continues to grow, becoming a permanent part. "The olive tree often grows wild, and so when the trees are cultivated they must be grafted. A graft of a cultivated olive tree is inserted into the stem of the wild olive tree, and then the wild olive tree is cut down close to the ground, and the part below becomes root and feeder for the inserted shoot. This is the customary process of grafting. The Apostle Paul, for the sake of argument, speaks of grafting contrary to the natural process. He tells of God grafting the wild olive of the Gentiles on the good stock of the Jewish nation, which is a reversal of custom (Rom. 11:24)" (Manners and Customs of Bible Lands, by Fred H. Wight).

The context of the Olive Tree teaching actually begins in verse 16:

Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
 

There is also a "theology" being taught in many Messianic and Hebrew Roots Congregations called "Olive Tree Theology".  It began with a Messianic Jew by the name of David  H. Stern who wrote The Complete Jewish Bible.  Here is the PDF link to what that is all about.  Supposedly that is other side of the Replacement Theology coin.

http://www.jiol.com/docs/olive_tree_theology.pdf

Gentiles do not become "spiritual" Jews when they get saved and neither does the Church become "spiritual" Israel.  The Church/Body of Christ is composed of born again Jews and Gentiles..."one new man" (Ephesians 2:15)

I hope I didn't take this thread off the topic, but it bothers me, as a born again Jew, that many Gentiles call themselves "spiritual" Jews and the Church, "spiritual" Israel when no such terms exist in Scriptures.  I believe that the blessings and curses of the Abrahamic Covenant still apply today.

Genesis 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Genesis 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

[Alan]

LindaR,

Thank you for the detailed study on the, 'Olive Tree.' Let me spend some time in close study on all that has been written in the study and then get back. You did not take the thread off topic. You enhanced it.

Does anybody have any other thoughts on Romans 15:25-27?

John, Ronda and LindaR,

I am thankful that the lesson has been a blessing to you and I want to thank you for your encouragement.  It is my sincere hope that all of us can understand the debt that we owe to the Jews.  

Alan

[LindaR]

Thank you Ronda for quoting Zechariah 2:8. I was going to quote that verse in my next posting!

Zechariah 2:8 is the favorite verse of the Jewish ministry called, "The Hope of Israel." Here is the link of the Hope of Israel Ministry: http://hopeofisrael.net/news/

 

 

 

That's also an excellent Jewish evangelism/missionary ministry.  Sorry I forgot to list that one with the other two I gave you in that PM. 

[John81]

The debt spoken of is regarding individuals, not nations. If individuals or churches believe they are led to give financial, military or other aid then that's what they should do. However, there is no call for nations to consider themselves to be owing a debt which should lead them to give money, military hardware or other things to Israel.

Christians should pray and follow the leading of the Lord. Each nation will make their own determination as to foreign aid based upon what they think at the time is in their best interests. That's why Russia and other Soviet Bloc nations, as well as socialist France, were early big defenders, suppliers and supporters of Israel. Later, when Cold War strategies brought about shifts in what seemed best for some nations, the Soviets and their allies chose to line up with some of the Arab countries and with America losing some influence in Arab countries she stepped in to alliance with Israel as part of Cold War strategy.

Today, while America gives Israel large financial aide each year along with military aid, she also gives such to Israel's neighbors and potential or even actual enemies.

Those who want to help Jews or Israel need to be very careful how they go about such. There was an excellent report out either earlier this year or some time last year (I may have posted about it then) which showed lists of organizations which claim to support Israel from a Christian perspective yet only a tiny few actually do. All the others are either mostly scams to make the leadership of the organizations rich, or they provide only specific and limited help to specific and limited Jews or parts of Israel, and that without sharing the Gospel.

Pastor John Hagee, one of the most vocal and big money and influence maker for Israel decided some years ago that Jews don't need to hear the Gospel because God's going to save all the Jews in another manner. That, of course, is not in accord with Scripture or his own previous teachings on the matter, but it is politically correct to Israel, most Jews and Americans of influence. That change of position is what opened the doors wide for Hagee to make great inroads and connections with Israel and Jewish leaders.

Dangerous times with many dangerous pro-Israel leaders and organizations out there which care not for the eternal souls of Jews.

[LindaR]

Allan: Does anybody have any other thoughts on Romans 15:25-27?

Bro. Allan, 

I like what you said at the end of your opening post about those verses:

Allan: Therefore, like Paul the Apostle and the early church, we need to be thankful for the Jews, the nation of Israel, and realize that we in debt to them and help them in carnal things. these carnal things include financial aid, military aid, and any other kind of aid.

In addition to humanitarian (carnal things) aid, I would include sharing the Gospel with the Jews.  

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Romans 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

[Alan]

LindaR said, "In addition to humanitarian (carnal things) aid, I would include sharing the Gospel with the Jews.  

Amen and amen.
 

Edited September 15, 2015 by Alan
spelling

[Genevanpreacher]

Does anybody have any other thoughts on Romans 15:25-27?

Yes.

You point this out as if to support sending to lost Jews.

Paul said he was going to minister to the saints. Those are saved Jews. Something we term Christians.

That means they were trying to help out brethren, not unsaved poor Jews.

Read the rest of the chapter brother and see for yourself. We are not encouraged in this chapter to collect things to give to anyone other than the saints.

 

Edited September 16, 2015 by Genevanpreacher

[Alan]

The apostle Paul clearly stated that we are debtors to the nation of Israel; not just to the poor saints in Israel. The poor saints in Israel had nothing to do with the spiritual blessings that Paul goes on to talk about.

"For is the Gentiles have been partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things." Romans 15:27

Paul is very clear in this matter. He stopped talking about the subject of the poor saints and then the subject changed to the  Gentiles debtors to the Jews fo the spiritual blessings mentioned previously.

[Genevanpreacher]

The apostle Paul clearly stated that we are debtors to the nation of Israel; not just to the poor saints in Israel. The poor saints in Israel had nothing to do with the spiritual blessings that Paul goes on to talk about.

"For is the Gentiles have been partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things." Romans 15:27

Paul is very clear in this matter. He stopped talking about the subject of the poor saints and then the subject changed to the  Gentiles debtors to the Jews fo the spiritual blessings mentioned previously.

You add a subject change here Alan, of which it doesn't exist. It is all still the same flow of talk. He was referencing the saints that were the poor.

Where is the subject changed?

Looky here -

25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints (a).

26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia (b) to make a certain contribution for the poor saints (a) which are at Jerusalem.

27 It hath pleased them (b) verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

 

(a) Both of these are the same saints.

(b)  Both of these are the same people being pleased.

 

You are not rightly dividing this at all. The carnal things referenced by Paul is the "certain contribution" talked of in verse 26. The reason for giving the contribution is verse 27b.

 

[Alan]

Genevanpreacher,

You are mistaken and cannot disceen the scriptures as they are written nor can you rightly divide the scriptures in order to know the will of God in this matter.    

Think about this for a moment. Did the poor saints in Jerusalem provide the Gentiles with spiritual things. Of course not! As Paul brought out previously in Romans 9: 4 and 5 all of the spiritual blessings of every saved saint in the church age has been blessed spirutally from the nation of Israel.

The Apostle Paul was a Jew. Paul was part of the Jewish remnant of the elect sons of israel. Every generation since Paul's age a remnant of Jews have been saved: Romans 11:1-12 At the time of Paul's ministry the Jews were enemies of the gospel, Romans 11:28 and Paul was severely persecuted by the Jews in almost every place he preached the gospel. This is common knowledge so I will only give one incident: Acts 12:44-50 The persecution endured by Paul from the hands of the Jews were physical, spiritual, and they blaspehemed and contradicted Paul at every opportunity.

So, in spite of the extreme persecution that Paul went through, and after Paul plainly stated that the Jews were enemies of the gospel, Paul still said that we, every saint, in every age, in every country, were debtors to the Jews.

"But now I [Paul] go unto Jerusalem to minister to the saints. For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certian contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiriutal things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things." Romans 15:25-27

Furthermore, in relation to this, even though we are not under the Law, Galatians 2:19, 3:10 & 25 etc.. Paul, when he went to Jerusalem on his last visit to Jerusalem to deliver the contribution mentioned in Romans15:25-27 went into the Temple and performed the ceremonial rites according to the Old Testament Law. Even though Paul preached, taught and wrote that the saints are not under the Law he still realized that the Law, and the Temple ceremonies, had spiritual applications and used these spiritual applications in his preaching at every opportunity.

Paul stated that Christians are debtors to the Jews, lost or saved, whether a person says they are elect or not-elect for the following reasons.

1. Previously Paul taught that after a Gentile is saved he is grafted into the Olive Tree, the nation of Israel. Romans 11:24

2. All, 100 per cent, of the spiritual blessings bestowed on a Gentile at the moment of salvation comes from the Jews. Romans 15:27 the Lord Jesus Christ was a Jew. a physical descendent child of the Patriarchs and of the lineage of David.

3. The Oracles of God, the Old Testament, and the New Testament, were all written by a Jewish man. "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcism? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." Romans 3:1 & 2 

Before someone mentions that the Apostle John was a Gentile I must correct that error. The Apostle John was a Jew. Yes, I understand that John is a Gentile name; but that does not make him a Gentle by birth. So was John the Baptist, and Paul Gentile names. Does that make John the Baptist and Paul the apostle Gentiles? Here on Taiwan I have a legal Chinese name, registered with the government of Taiwan, and is used for all legal documents. Does that make me a Chinese? 

4. The doctrine of adoption is from the Jews. Romans 9:4, Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption..." When a Gentile gets saved he is adopted into the family of God as a son Abraham. Paul wrote, "To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons." Galatians 4:5 and, "Know ye therefore that which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." Galatians 3:7

5. All of the glory ahead of the every saved Gentile is through the Jews. "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and glory..." Romans 9:4 Is heaven a glorious place? The spiritual blessing of heaven comes from a Jew.

6. All of the Covenants are given to the Jews. "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants..." Romans 9:4 All of the covenants in the Old Testament are still in force and have not been annulled or given to the church. The Reformed Theology Brethrern, the Replacement Theology brethren are in total error and are teaching unsound doctrine.

The New Covenant in Hebrews 8:8 is also a Jewish Covenant.  The New covenant is given to the House of Israel with the House of Judah. It is not given to the church at all. Hebrews 8:8, "For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."

7. The service of God. "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God..." Romans 9:4

The services of the Temple by God was given for a teaching platform of the  holiness of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the works of Christ. This is why in all of his Epistles Paul the Apostle emphasized the law and the Temple. If a person wants to learn more about Jesus, the Book of Hebrews, and the Book of Revelation, and the Book of Romans, he needs to read the Law real close with a humble attitude.

8. The promises of God. "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises." Romans 9:4

The Old Tesament not only includes the Law of God, but it includes many precepts and promises. Some of the promises are given to every saint and some of these promises are given to the nation of Israel. The context, and wording of the promises tell whom they given to.

All of the promises of the New Testament was also given by a Jew; the Lord Jesus. 

9.  All of the Patriarchs were Jews. "Whose are the fathers..." Romans 9:5 All of the promises, covenants, precepts, were given by Jews to the Gentiles.

10. "Whose are the fathers, and of whom concerning the flesh christ blessed for ever. Amen."..." Romans 9:5 The Lord Jesus was of Jewish lineage.

Therefore, like Paul the Apostle and the early church, we need to be thankful for the Jews, the nation of Israel, and realize that we in debt to them and help them in carnal things. these carnal things include financial aid, military aid, and any other kind of aid.

Alan

 

The apostle Paul clearly stated that we are debtors to the nation of Israel; not just to the poor saints in Israel. The poor saints in Israel had nothing to do with the spiritual blessings that Paul goes on to talk about.

"For is the Gentiles have been partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things." Romans 15:27

Paul is very clear in this matter. He stopped talking about the subject of the poor saints and then the subject changed to the  Gentiles debtors to the Jews fo the spiritual blessings mentioned previously.

Brethren,

I decided to strike out the above sentence in this post to try, keep these these thoughts to myself, and to try and develop a more gracious spirit.

Alan

Edited October 16, 2015 by Alan
strike-out

[Genevanpreacher]

Yes Alan I did rightly divide as my previous post shows.

I am sorry, but something is obviously wrong with you. I will now leave you to your own reasoning's Alan.

I will pray that you will have a change in your life that will open your spiritual eyes to your observation of the scriptures problem.

What ever your need is.

Good bye.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Genevanpreacher