Free Will: An Atheist's Question

[ThePilgrim]

Professor, are you searching for Truth?  Are you searching for God?  Are you searching for a life long never ending logical argument?  The latter is a total waste of your time and mental capacity.  The two former can be done quite easily and here is the best method for finding both . . . . for the two are really one

From God's Word:    Matt 7:7-10
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?  KJV

 

A little explanation from a very wise man:  Matthew 7:7-8
The promise is made, and made so as exactly to answer the precept, v. 7. Ask, and it shall be given you; not lent you, not sold you, but given you; and what is more free than gift? Whatever you pray for, according to the promise, whatever you ask, shall be given you, if God see it fit for you, and what would you have more? It is but ask and have; ye have not, because ye ask not, or ask not aright: what is not worth asking, is not worth having, and then it is worth nothing. Seek, and ye shall find, and then you do not lose your labour; God is himself found of those that seek him, and if we find him we have enough. "Knock, and it shall be opened; the door of mercy and grace shall no longer be shut against you as enemies and intruders, but opened to you as friends and children. It will be asked, who is at the door? If you be able to say, a friend, and have the ticket of promise ready to produce in the hand of faith, doubt not of admission. If the door be not opened at the first knock, continue instant in prayer; it is an affront to a friend to knock at his door, and then go away; though he tarry, yet wait."

It is repeated, v. 8. It is to the same purport, yet with some addition. (1.) It is made to extend to all that pray aright; "Not only you my disciples shall receive what you pray for, but every one that asketh, receiveth, whether Jew or Gentile, young or old, rich or poor, high or low, master or servant, learned or unlearned, they are all alike welcome to the throne of grace, if they come in faith: for God is no respecter of persons." (2.) It is made so as to amount to a grant, in words of the present tense, which is more than a promise for the future. Every one that asketh, not only shall receive, but receiveth; by faith, applying and appropriating the promise, we are actually interested and invested in the good promised: so sure and inviolable are the promises of God, that they do, in effect, give present possession: an active believer enters immediately, and makes the blessings promised his own. What have we in hope, according to the promise, is as sure, and should be as sweet, as what we have in hand. God hath spoken in his holiness, and then Gilead is mine, Manasseh mine (Ps 108:7,8); it is all mine own, if I can but make it so by believing it so. Conditional grants become absolute upon the performance of the condition; so here, he that asketh, receiveth. Christ hereby puts his fiat to the petition; and he having all power, that is enough.
(from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible, PC Study Bible Formatted Electronic Database Copyright © 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All Rights reserved.)

And a verse for others in this discussion:

Matt 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.  KJV

Matthew 7:6
 It is not every one that is fit to be reproved; Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, v. 6. This may be considered, either, (1.) As a rule to the disciples in preaching the gospel; not that they must not preach it to any one who were wicked and profane (Christ himself preached to publicans and sinners), but the reference is to such as they found obstinate after the gospel was preached to them, such as blasphemed it, and persecuted the preachers of it; let them not spend much time among such, for it would be lost labour, but let them turn to others, Acts 13:41. So Dr. Whitby. Or, (2.) As a rule to all in giving reproof. Our zeal against sin must be guided by discretion, and we must not go about to give instructions, counsels, and rebukes, much less comforts, to hardened scorners, to whom it will certainly do no good, but who will be exasperated and enraged at us. Throw a pearl to a swine, and he will resent it, as if you threw a stone at him; reproofs will be called reproaches, as they were (Luke 11:45; Jer 6:10), therefore give not to dogs and swine (unclean creatures) holy things. Note, [1.] Good counsel and reproof are a holy thing, and a pearl: they are ordinances of God, they are precious; as an ear-ring of gold, and an ornament of fine gold, so is the wise reprover (Prov 25:12), and a wise reproof is like an excellent oil (Ps 141:5); it is a tree of life (Prov 3:18). [2.] Among the generation of the wicked, there are some that have arrived at such a pitch of wickedness, that they are looked upon as dogs and swine; they are impudently and notoriously vile; they have so long walked in the way of sinners, that they have sat down in the seat of the scornful; they professedly hate and despise instruction, and set it at defiance, so that they are irrecoverably and irreclaimably wicked; they return with the dog to his vomit, and with the sow to her wallowing in the mire. [3.] Reproofs of instruction are ill bestowed upon such, and expose the reprover to all the contempt and mischief that may be expected from dogs and swine. One can expect no other than that they will trample the reproofs under their feet, in scorn of them, and rage against them; for they are impatient of control and contradiction; and they will turn again and rend the reprovers; rend their good names with their revilings, return them wounding words for their healing ones; rend them with persecution; Herod rent John Baptist for his faithfulness. See here what is the evidence of men's being dogs and swine. Those are to be reckoned such, who hate reproofs and reprovers, and fly in the face of those who, in kindness to their souls, show them their sin and danger. These sin against the remedy; who shall heal and help those that will not be healed and helped? It is plain that God has determined to destroy such. 2 Chron 25:16. The rule here given is applicable to the distinguishing, sealing ordinances of the gospel; which must not be prostituted to those who are openly wicked and profane, lest holy things be thereby rendered contemptible, and unholy persons be thereby hardened. It is not meet to take the children's bread, and cast it to the dogs. Yet we must be very cautious whom we condemn as dogs and swine, and not do it till after trial, and upon full evidence. Many a patient is lost, by being thought to be so, who, if means had been used, might have been saved. As we must take heed of calling the good, bad, by judging all professors to be hypocrites; so we must take heed of calling the bad, desperate, by judging all the wicked to be dogs and swine. [4.] Our Lord Jesus is very tender of the safety of his people, and would not have them needlessly to expose themselves to the fury of those that will turn again and rend them. Let them not be righteous over much, so as to destroy themselves. Christ makes the law of self-preservation one of his own laws, and precious is the blood of his subjects to him.
(from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible, PC Study Bible Formatted Electronic Database Copyright © 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All Rights reserved.)

I am not wise enough to know when a discussion becomes an argument and it becomes obvious that one should just turn a debater and doubter over to God.  I just thought I would give some things to contemplate.

 

[Professor_Physika]

Hi ThePilgrim!

I'm mainly here to understand what people believe and why. If that journey leads me to "Truth" or the Christian god, then I'm fully open to that route.

I appreciate the commentary you have laid out for me, I'll be sure to more fully peruse it.

Have a nice day

[No Nicolaitans]

I would like to add one last thing...

To any Christians who may be reading this thread and doubts have sprung up in regard to God being the one who causes all things to happen in your life...this would lead one to blame God for any and all troubles that may arise, any heartbreaks that may come, and any sin that may be present. Let me assure you that man has free-will, and while the Bible does teach that God works and moves in the affairs of mankind, God doesn't cause everything to happen that does happen in our lives.

This may not mean much to an unbeliever, but to a Christian...here is biblical proof that man has free-will...

This is God speaking in each instance...

Jeremiah 19:5
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Hosea 8:4
They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.

 

Now, before anyone panics and says, "But God is supposed to know everything!" Remember that God communicates with man in a way that man can comprehend and understand. His ways are above our ways, and our finite-human minds can't grasp all there is to know about him. God is holy, righteous, and true...it never entered God's mind to have (or make) them do these things...in other words...it never entered God's mind to be the "causal agent".  They committed the acts all of their own free-will.

Edited June 20, 2015 by No Nicolaitans

[DaveW]

You have stated that your purpose here is to cause doubt.

Your replies to my post prove the truthfulness of my post.

Therefore there is no point answering your questions, as you will continue to dismiss the answers you are given based on your presuppositions and your directive intent.

Any answer given is deemed by you to be irrelevant as it "makes the experiment null".

 

Further, if you were "brought up in the southern baptists" like I think you said elsewhere, then you have all the background you need. You know the answers to the questions you are asking.

Therefore, your questions are not to gather information, but to cause trouble.

It is therefore incumbent upon you to prove that there is value in your questions - convince such as NN and I that it is worth answering your questions.

Or you will get less and less replies as other people come to the same conclusions.

Do you actually want to grow from your time here, or is this a game for you?

[Professor_Physika]

Hi DaveW  

"You have stated that your purpose here is to cause doubt."

It's one of my purposes, yes; but perhaps I should rephrase it. I was unaware the term "doubt" could bring about such animosity on this forum, so perhaps a better thing to say is I'd just like people to reexamine their beliefs and think. This may cause some to doubt, but, in my interactions with other Christians, they've also stated it strengthened their convictions. I hope this helps clear up some ill feelings.

"Your replies to my post prove the truthfulness of my post."

I apologize, but may I ask in what way? Surely you agree simply stating what you stated above does not in any way demonstrate the truthfulness of the claim. If there is something wrong with what I've said, I think it'd be more productive if it was actually examined and refuted. Again, I mean no offense, but this is generally how this sort of discourse is run and it would certainly be beneficial to me in terms of how I run future conversations.

"Therefore there is no point answering your questions, as you will continue to dismiss the answers you are given based on your presuppositions and your directive intent."

Not at all! I'm completely open-minded to the alternatives and the fact that I haven't accepted the answers here today demonstrates that they simply aren't valid to me as I've laid out in my critique. My primary purpose is to learn and if, in that learning, I become convinced of this particular religious sect, I will gladly admit it.

"Any answer given is deemed by you to be irrelevant as it "makes the experiment null"."

I'm sorry, could you please explain this better? 

"Further, if you were "brought up in the southern baptists" like I think you said elsewhere, then you have all the background you need. You know the answers to the questions you are asking."

Not necessarily. While I have some ideas of Christian theology, I am, of course, not all-knowing. Furthermore, I am currently residing within a household which I believe may act antagonistic towards a dedicated line of questioning such as this. Therefore, at the invitation of TheSword, I have joined this forum to voice my questions for others to hopefully answer and discuss. No disrespect intended.

"Therefore, your questions are not to gather information, but to cause trouble."

I believe this accusation is unfounded, but you are entitled to your opinion. I apologize for giving off this impression.

"It is therefore incumbent upon you to prove that there is value in your questions - convince such as NN and I that it is worth answering your questions."

Obviously, over the internet, it will be difficult to demonstrate my sincereness. Therefore, I have taken to be as honest, direct, and polite as I can be on this forum. I hope this speaks to an honest intent of mine.

"Do you actually want to grow from your time here, or is this a game for you?"

As you say, I hope to grow in understanding. I do not intend to "play" the members of this forum as if this is some "game". As I have further explored this website, I have realized what a deep outlier I represent in terms of personal opinions and beliefs. I take responsibility for joining this site without taking more time to delve into its content as user TheSword seemed to implicitly state it was a forum of sorts to discuss these kind of topics. I now know that is, for the most part, incorrect. That being said, if there is a consensus of users who wish for me to disable my account and exit onlinebaptist.com, I will take it upon myself and do so respectively and quietly.
Thank you  

[ThePilgrim]

I would think that this last entry of the Professor of Atheism would clear up any doubt as to his intent in being among us.  He is here to spread confusion and doubt.  An honest man would mot be putting on such an air of superiority and using words that are not in the average persons vocabulary when just plain english that poor dumb Christians like me can understand.  Words taken from some evolutionist text for instance instead of gene which everyone knows shows his intent to overwhelm ordinary homo sapiens like me with his much superior book learnin'.  I was in agreement that we should give this sinner (as we all are) a chance to learn something but it seem to me he has shown himself for what he is by his conversation.  I am not impressed in the least by this sheep in wolves clothing and I hope not many are.  

Matthew 7:6

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."  KJV

[Professor_Physika]

Hi ThePilgrim,

I apologize if I've come off as superior and I apologize for what you interpret as my advanced vocabulary. This is simply how I talk in most forums and it was not intended to ridicule anyone here. The specific example of referring to a gene as an allele was, perhaps, unfounded. However, I justify my actions in that we were on a topic devoted to science and I thus found it appropriate to use scientific terminology. This will be duly rectified.

Again, I apologize for what many seem to make me out is. I don't know what much else I can do to gain your trust and I again, humbly, offer up the possibility that I should delete my account if the majority here see me as a trespasser and trouble-doer.

Thank you all for your time

[John81]

After reading all the latest postings by Professor in several threads I have to agree with Pilgrim, Dave, and others. There can be no discussion with someone who wants to play word games, avoid direct points, dismiss important information based upon their whim.

As pointed out previously, if Professor has grown up in a Southern Baptist family and church he's heard enough to know the truth, has chosen to reject the truth, and now seeks to entertain himself by trying to trick Christians into discussing side issues for the sake of taking cheap shots at Christianity.

[Professor_Physika]

Hi John81

"After reading all the latest postings by Professor in several threads I have to agree with Pilgrim, Dave, and others."

I'm starting to see the trend here. Clearly, I am not wanted by many on this site despite my attempts to defend myself of harmful accusations and disputing the claims leveled against me.

"There can be no discussion with someone who wants to play word games, avoid direct points, dismiss important information based upon their whim."

With all due respect, what word games have I played? What direct points have I avoided? What important information have I dismissed? I've attempted to be as direct, courteous, and honest as I possibly can in my posts which are oftentimes laid out in an easy to understand point-by-point defense of my character and motives. I am simply at a loss as to what to do.

"As pointed out previously, if Professor has grown up in a Southern Baptist family and church he's heard enough to know the truth, has chosen to reject the truth,"

And, as I pointed out, having the background doesn't then mean I have every answer. I've also stated the difficulty I would encounter in posing questions directly to my family and church friends. For these reasons and because TheSword was kind enough to recommend me here, I joined this site but that decision has clearly been a source of angst for many longtime members. It is as I stated, but if my presence is undesirable, I again offer to delete my account if the prevailing consensus is against my favor. People just need to say the word.

"and now seeks to entertain himself by trying to trick Christians into discussing side issues for the sake of taking cheap shots at Christianity."

I respectfully disagree that I'm trying to "trick" anyone. I'm not here to take cheap shots either. I am here for the purposes stated. The problem is that less than half of my time here has been in any sort of fruitful discussion and has instead been spent defending my integrity. Clearly having an atheist in your midst makes many users here uncomfortable. I respectfully ask that users refrain from unjustly accusing me of such divisive behavior in the face of a lack of evidence. 

Thank you to those who will listen and understand that I have no ulterior motives 

[No Nicolaitans]

I would like to add one last thing...

To any Christians who may be reading this thread and doubts have sprung up in regard to God being the one who causes all things to happen in your life...this would lead one to blame God for any and all troubles that may arise, any heartbreaks that may come, and any sin that may be present. Let me assure you that man has free-will, and while the Bible does teach that God works and moves in the affairs of mankind, God doesn't cause everything to happen that does happen in our lives.

This may not mean much to an unbeliever, but to a Christian...here is biblical proof that man has free-will...

This is God speaking in each instance...

Jeremiah 19:5
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Hosea 8:4
They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.

 

Now, before anyone panics and says, "But God is supposed to know everything!" Remember that God communicates with man in a way that man can comprehend and understand. His ways are above our ways, and our finite-human minds can't grasp all there is to know about him. God is holy, righteous, and true...it never entered God's mind to have (or make) them do these things...in other words...it never entered God's mind to be the "causal agent".  They committed the acts all of their own free-will.

Strange...first, I made a long post in this thread that disappeared when I hit "Submit Reply". Then, I thought the above post that I quoted (from myself) had disappeared too, but I then noticed that it somehow moved to the very first reply to the question. Strange indeed.

[John81]

If a person chooses to reject God, therefore rejecting the only means of not only salvation but understanding the things of God, they can't understand spiritual matters so there is no point in continual back and forth over issues other than salvation.

Unless one is born again in Christ, whereupon the Holy Ghost comes to teach the saved person the things of God, there is no way for a person to grasp the things of God.

Arguing, debating, discussing matters of evolution vs creation and other things is pointless.

Unfortunately, Professor chooses to reject God, reject salvation through Christ, and therefore rejecting the Holy Ghost and the wisdom and teaching He provides.

Professor, unless you are willing to consider the Gospel there is nothing else to talk about because it's impossible for you to understand anything else.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14

[Professor_Physika]

Hi John81,

Sure, I'm willing to consider that the Gospel holds some weight. In fact, for those who have countered my syllogism with excerpts from the Bible, I argue that this merely shows logical inconsistencies in the book.

What I've gathered, essentially, is that yes, my syllogism is valid, but God also makes it clear that we have free will, so God defies logic. Is this a fair summarization?

Thanks 

 

[John81]

The only "fair summarization" is "ye must be born again". Who is Jesus? Is He the Way, the Truth and the Life as He said or not.

By declaring there is no God you have made your decision to reject Jesus and the only means of salvation and spiritual understanding.

If you are willing to consider the Gospel as you claim, that means you are willing to sit down with a Bible, truly consider the salvation verses and decide whether you choose to continue to deny God even exists or choose to accept the reality of God and your need to be born again in Christ.

[Professor_Physika]

Hi John81,

I take issue with the characterization of my position as declaring there is no God. Rather, I simply lack a belief in said god and all others for that matter. This may appear to be arguing semantics, but it does make a difference in terms of where the burden of proof lies etc etc

I'm willing to consider the validity of the Gospel. However, this requires me to have evidence that what they say is true, how it's determined to be true, are the claims falsifiable, is there a God, and so on and so forth. Perhaps I'm being unnecessarily complicated, but I do believe I am exercising due skepticism in my investigations into Christianity and other religions.

Thanks for the comment 

[John81]

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

If you don't believe God exists you believe there is no God. Scripture speaks clearly to the condition of such as hold to such a view.