R. C. Sproul Jr.

[Jim_Alaska]

 Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

  1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

[heartstrings]

 13  Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14  And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15  For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 

Why did Jesus speak in parables so they shouldn't believe and be converted?

Jesus spoke in parables, "paralleling" spiritual things with the natural world. The natural world is all they were capable of understanding. He didn't just tell some enigmatic story just to sound esoteric. In another place He said "Jerusalem, Jersalem, how oft would I have gathered thee.........". The word "would" is a form, of the word "will". It was his will that they ne saved but they "would" not.

^{Romans 5:18} Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

Does the phrase "all men", in the above verse,  mean two different things? If it doesn't, It totally destroys your Calvinist doctrine in one verse. But your pride won't let you see that because you have closed your eyes just like the Children of Israel did theirs.

Edited July 29, 2015 by heartstrings
fixed typo

[MountainChristian]

Isaiah 6:9 ¶ And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

[Covenanter]

Isaiah 6:9 ¶ And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Acts 28:

22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.

23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him intohis lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out ofthe prophets, from morning till evening.

24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

[MountainChristian]

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

[Leonard Sylvia]

Jesus spoke in parables, "paralleling" spiritual things with the natural world. The natural world is all they were capable of understanding. He didn't just tell some enigmatic story just to sound esoteric. In another place He said "Jerusalem, Jersalem, how oft would I have gathered thee.........". The word "would" is a form, of the word "will". It was his will that they ne saved but they "would" not.

^{Romans 5:18} Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

Does the phrase "all men", in the above verse,  mean two different things? If it doesn't, I totally destroys your Calvinist doctrine in one verse. But your pride won't let you see that because you have closed your eyes just like the Children of Israel did theirs.

I believe in God's sovereignty, if that makes me a Calvinist, then so be it. 

Do you see the end of the verse unto all men to justification of life? That's the believers! If I read it your way than that makes you an Open Theist. A place where God has no control.

see 1 Co 15:21-23

so no, you haven't destroyed anything.

[Leonard Sylvia]

Also, look earlier in the chapter what does Paul say, while we were yet sinner, Christ died for who? us! Who is he writing to? Believers in Rome! Read the entire chapter in its context. He wasn't writing a gospel tract to unbelievers.

[heartstrings]

 

I believe in God's sovereignty, if that makes me a Calvinist, then so be it. 

Do you see the end of the verse unto all men to justification of life? That's the believers! If I read it your way than that makes you an Open Theist. A place where God has no control.

see 1 Co 15:21-23

so no, you haven't destroyed anything.

I didn't mean "I" destroyed anything: that was a typo. Sorry.

God graciously gives you the choice to hang on to Calvinism, as well as the choice for me to deny it but I will tell you this: even though He freely gives us choices in this life, He alone controls the consequences of those choices. The word "sovereignty" does not appear in the King James Bible, but God is all powerful: He will put all those who reject Jesus in Hell.

 

 

[No Nicolaitans]

Romans 5:18 

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

So, the "all men" who receive the free gift unto justification unto life = believers.

Well then who does the judgment to condemnation apply to? Well, since "all men" = believers, it must be believers too...right? So only believers were condemned to judgment. I guess God was just playing a trick on us...threatening us believers with judgment, because we can't be judged to condemnation since believers aren't condemned. At least that lets people who were/are never saved off the hook...whew!

You know what? Let's just bring this to where the rubber meets the road. This only applies to men and not women, right? After all, it says "all men". In fact, it only applies to Roman men, right? After all, Paul was writing to the Romans.

To all who may read this, I thank you for allowing me to participate in Online Baptist, but I believe that it's time for me to say goodbye. I just don't have it in me any longer. I wish you all well. Keep pressing toward the mark (Philippians 3:14). 

Respectfully in Christ,

No Nicolaitans

[Leonard Sylvia]

Well then who does the judgment to condemnation apply to? Well, since "all men" = believers, it must be believers too...right? So only believers were condemned to judgment. I guess God was just playing a trick on us...threatening us believers with judgment, because we can't be judged to condemnation since believers aren't condemned. At least that lets people who were/are never saved off the hook...whew!

 All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, There are none righteous, no not one. Nobody seeks after God

 

You know what? Let's just bring this to where the rubber meets the road. This only applies to men and not women, right? After all, it says "all men". In fact, it only applies to Roman men, right? After all, Paul was writing to the Romans.

 

now, you're being ridiculous. You are applying 21st century thinking to a first century letter.

 

 

 Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

  1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jim, i go back to the story I used earlier.you ask you family, "are we all buckled in?" are you asking the world?

John 12:19, did the whole world follow Jesus? please, look at the letter, who is he writing to, believers or unbelievers?

[Jim_Alaska]

You can go back there to your illustration if you like. But the two Scriptures I listed do not fit your illustration. "Every man" means every man. And the whole world? Well, what can I say, most people know what the whole world means in language we can understand.

God gave us His word so that we might understand his message, not to confuse the meaning of His message and cause us to have to guess at His meaning. A Scripture does not mean what we want it to mean, it means what God had plainly written by His Holy Spirit.

[Leonard Sylvia]

Jim, your right but you also have to take into consideration who he was talking to and what the context was of the conversation was. 

Pauls epistles are written to believers, at a certain time, at a certain place, dealing with certain situations. For those we have to take into context what was being said, to who, what, where and why.

explain this then Jim. What is the spiritual significance of. 2Tim 4:13?

[heartstrings]

Romans 5

⁶ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly elect?

No, that's not what it says in the King James Bible

[Leonard Sylvia]

Read it HS, for when we were without strength . Who was without? We, the believers. Remember, husband loves your wives? Because why, because Christ loved the church that he gave his life for what? Unbelievers? No the church! 

Read Romans 9 for full effect.

And btw, I'm not KJVO.

[heartstrings]

 

 

Read it HS, for when we were without strength . Who was without? We, the believers. Remember, husband loves your wives? Because why, because Christ loved the church that he gave his life for what? Unbelievers? No the church! 

Read Romans 9 for full effect.

And btw, I'm not KJVO.

Yes, I've read Romans 9, many times. let me ask you a question.

Are those who are not 'elect', the enemies of God?

Edited July 30, 2015 by heartstrings