Comment On Current Debate

Genevanpreacher · May 5, 2015

Plainly, the only reasonable way to view the Bible is literally unless it plainly indicates otherwise.
Any other way just means that you make up a meaning you like.
The Bible means what it says and says what it means - including telling us by various mechanisms when it is using pictures or illustrations.

Like weeks meaning sevens? Maybe weeks means weeks?

Could it really be that when the angel came to Daniel to bring him understanding, that he really meant 70 weeks? Just like the words say?

What happened in Daniels time 70 weeks (about 16 months and 10 days) from the explanation by the angel?

Interesting...

DaveW · May 5, 2015

OK, perhaps you could tell me which of the parables of Jesus were figurative and which were not?

Ummmm - parables were all illustrations - that's what a parable is.....

As to NT writers using OT references, I might remind you that application is different to understanding - a literal understanding can be applied in different ways, AND we KNOW their application is correct because they were guided specifically in it by the Holy Spirit in writing their words.

And I will also point out that this is THE BIBLE telling us a specific application of those passages - no guesswork, no ambiguity.

And GP - if were not so intent on opposing me you might actually read what has already been posted. ...........

Pastor Scott Markle · May 5, 2015

Like weeks meaning sevens? Maybe weeks means weeks?
Could it really be that when the angel came to Daniel to bring him understanding, that he really meant 70 weeks? Just like the words say?
What happened in Daniels time 70 weeks (about 16 months and 10 days) from the explanation by the angel?
Interesting...

Ah, I guess "the worm on the hook" was just too tempting, . . . so I am going to bite.

First, even if (for the sake of your argument) the "seventy weeks" of Daniel 9:24-27 do indeed refer to a literal time period of 490 days, your question is not accurate to the text of Daniel 9:25. It would not be -- "What happened in Daniels time 70 weeks (about 16 months and 10 days) from the explanation by the angel?" Rather, it would be -- What happened in Daniels time 70 weeks (about 16 months and 10 days) "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem"? (Please note that I have quoted directly from God's own Word in Daniel 9:25 as inspired by God the Holy Spirit.)

Second, if (for the sake of your argument) I concede that the "seventy weeks" of Daniel 9:24-27 do indeed refer to a literal time period of 490 days, I will now ask a return question -- In what way did "the Messiah the Prince" enter into the picture 483 days after "the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem"? (Please provide some Biblically supported answer.)

Invicta · May 5, 2015

Ah, I guess "the worm on the hook" was just too tempting, . . . so I am going to bite.
First, even if (for the sake of your argument) the "seventy weeks" of Daniel 9:24-27 do indeed refer to a literal time period of 490 days, your question is not accurate to the text of Daniel 9:25. It would not be -- "What happened in Daniels time 70 weeks (about 16 months and 10 days) from the explanation by the angel?" Rather, it would be -- What happened in Daniels time 70 weeks (about 16 months and 10 days) "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem"? (Please note that I have quoted directly from God's own Word in Daniel 9:25 as inspired by God the Holy Spirit.)
Second, if (for the sake of your argument) I concede that the "seventy weeks" of Daniel 9:24-27 do indeed refer to a literal time period of 490 days, I will now ask a return question -- In what way did "the Messiah the Prince" enter into the picture 483 days after "the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem"? (Please provide some Biblically supported answer.)

Well there was Cyrus, he was a prince, I have read that the name Cyrus means prince. He was also a messiah, God's anointed, (Is 45: 1 ¶ Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus,)

But Cyrus was obviously not the person referred to as he was the one to publish God's previously given command to restore and build Jerusalem and he did not fulfill the rest of the prophecy.

When the NT begins,the Jews were expecting their Messiah at that time. In Mark 1:14 Jesus said "The time is fulfilled," What time but the end of the 69 weeks?

Invicta · May 5, 2015

Actually I was just Commenting on the point that scripture is mostly literal. I think that was answered.

Genevanpreacher · May 6, 2015

And GP - if (you?) were not so intent on opposing me you might actually read what has already been posted. ...........

Huh? Did I miss something? Opposing you?

Edited May 6, 2015 by Genevanpreacher

Genevanpreacher · May 6, 2015

Ah, I guess "the worm on the hook" was just too tempting, . . . so I am going to bite.
First, even if (for the sake of your argument) the "seventy weeks" of Daniel 9:24-27 do indeed refer to a literal time period of 490 days, your question is not accurate to the text of Daniel 9:25. It would not be -- "What happened in Daniels time 70 weeks (about 16 months and 10 days) from the explanation by the angel?" Rather, it would be -- What happened in Daniels time 70 weeks (about 16 months and 10 days) "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem"? (Please note that I have quoted directly from God's own Word in Daniel 9:25 as inspired by God the Holy Spirit.)

Yes, but the 70 weeks I was referring to is in verse 24. There is NO 70 weeks in verse 25. That verse talks about the 69 weeks.

Read again:

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

And I believe I have also "quoted directly from God's own Word in" [Daniel 9:24] "as inspired by God the Holy Spirit."

Edited May 6, 2015 by Genevanpreacher

MountainChristian · May 6, 2015

The list as stated in the Bible is:

to finish the transgression
to make an end of sins
to make reconciliation for iniquity
to bring in everlasting righteousness
to seal up the vision and prophecy
to anoint the most Holy

Pastor Scott, my real name is Ken. I have a question. Is the list of verse 24 out of order? The anointing occurs at the beginning of the 1000 years?

seal up the vision and prophecy
anoint the most Holy
finish the transgression
make an end of sins
make reconciliation for iniquity
bring in everlasting righteousness

But we know after the 1000 years the Devil is released and people join him in a final rebellion. That is sin. It is the same problem teacher Ian had and you rebutted. Why is sin occurring after the 490 years and the 1000 reign?

Pastor Scott Markle · May 6, 2015

Yes, but the 70 weeks I was referring to is in verse 24. There is NO 70 weeks in verse 25. That verse talks about the 69 weeks.
Read again:
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
And I believe I have also "quoted directly from God's own Word in" [Daniel 9:24] "as inspired by God the Holy Spirit."

Ah, I see. So then, you do not recognize that according to the contextual flow of thought, the 69 weeks of Daniel 9:25 are in fact the first 69 weeks of the 70 weeks in Daniel 9:24. In relation to this, could I ask you to explain the intended meaning of and usage for the word "therefore" in Daniel 9:25?

Concerning my declaration that I had quoted directly for God's own Word, I was expressing that specifically (as the context of my statement would indicate) in relation to the contrast between your phrase, "from the explanation by the angel" (which is a phrase that is not found anywhere at all throughout the entirety of Daniel 9:24-27), and my phrase, "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem" (which is a phrase that actually is quoted word-for-word directly from Daniel 9:25). So then, by what means from the text itself do you make the conclusion that the 70 weeks began "from the explanation by the angel"?

Now, I am not exactly certain why you emboldened and underlined the phrase, "are determined," in your quotation of Daniel 9:25. However, if I were to venture my best guess in (what appears to be) accord with the flow of thought in your argument, I would guess that you were seeking to emphasize the present tense nature of this verb. Furthermore, I would guess that you were seeking to emphasize this present tense nature in order to support your position that the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:25 were to begin in the present day wherein the angel was delivering his explanation unto Daniel. If my guess is correct on this matter, then I would simply point out that making a determination for something to be done and engaging in the activity of doing that something are not the same thing. Certainly, the Lord God had already made the determination that the 70 weeks (whatever time period they are intended to define) would occur. However, with the explanation of Daniel 9:25 (as per the usage of the word "therefore"), these 70 weeks (or, at least the first 69 weeks of these 70 weeks) were determined actually to begin "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem."

Edited May 6, 2015 by Pastor Scott Markle

Pastor Scott Markle · May 6, 2015

The list as stated in the Bible is:
to finish the transgression
to make an end of sins
to make reconciliation for iniquity
to bring in everlasting righteousness
to seal up the vision and prophecy
to anoint the most Holy
Pastor Scott, my real name is Ken. I have a question. Is the list of verse 24 out of order? The anointing occurs at the beginning of the 1000 years?
seal up the vision and prophecy
anoint the most Holy
finish the transgression
make an end of sins
make reconciliation for iniquity
bring in everlasting righteousness
But we know after the 1000 years the Devil is released and people join him in a final rebellion. That is sin. It is the same problem teacher Ian had and you rebutted. Why is sin occurring after the 490 years and the 1000 reign?

Brother Ken,

First, I would thank you for the graciousness wherein you have asked your questions.

Second, concerning your question -- "Is the list of verse 24 out of order?" I myself believe that the flow of thought for the six-fold purpose and result statements in Daniel 9:24 presents them in a logical order, such that each of the six-fold purpose and result statements is founded upon the previous purpose-result statement, and such that the entire list reaches its climax with the anointing of "the most Holy."

Third, concerning your question -- "The anointing occurs at the beginning of the 1000 years?" This would indeed be my present position on the matter.

Fourth, concerning your statements and your question -- "But we know after the 1000 years the Devil is released and people join him in a final rebellion. That is sin. It is the same problem teacher Ian had and you rebutted. Why is sin occurring after the 490 years and the 1000 reign?" This appears to reveal a misunderstanding on your part concerning my position. I do not believe that the six-fold purpose and result statements of Daniel 9:24 are intended to be applied "upon" all of the people groups of the world at that time. Rather, I believe that the six-fold purpose and result statements of Daniel 9:24 are intended to communicate only that which will occur "upon" Daniel's people, the children of Israel as a specific national group. Indeed, this is part of the reason that I placed such emphasis and engaged with such effort concerning the meaning of the phrase, "thy people," as employed in Daniel 9:24. This is also part of the reason that I have presented Isaiah 1:24-27, Jeremiah 3:15-19, 31:31-37, 32:36-42, Ezekiel 36:24-38, and Ezekiel 37:21-28 as corresponding passages to the purpose-result statements of Daniel 9:24. As such, I do not believe that at the beginning of the 1,000 year reign, all the gentile people groups of the world will enter into a spiritual condition of "finished transgression," "ended sins," "reconciliation with God," and "everlasting righteousness." Rather, I believe only that at the beginning of the 1,000 year reign, the children of Israel as a national group will enter into this spiritual condition. Thus in accord with my position there remains the allowance for many among the gentile people groups of the world to rebel against the Lord Jesus Christ's reign at the end of the 1,000 years after the devil is released from the bottomless pit in order to stir them up and lead them unto rebellion. So then, concerning the matter of this rebellion specifically, I would only contend that none of the children of Israel will depart from the Lord Jesus Christ's rule and will join with this rebellion against Him.

I pray that my above answers will have been helpful to answer your questions, at least concerning my position on the matter (and how it works together).

Covenanter · May 7, 2015

Oh, I forgot to say, I notice that Covenanter has 'liked' John's appeal for the debaters to explain why they aren't interpreting 70 weeks as literally seventy weeks, i.e. 490 days. Pastor Scott has already explained why--he has interpreted that bit of scripture in the light of extra-Biblical sources. Cov, will we get yours? I'm sure it's been posted already on the forum in the past, but hey what hasn't...

Actually 70 weeks of years is clear from the context of the whole chapter:

Dan. 9:2 claims the promised restoration after 70 years exile, so when Gabriel prophesies 70 weeks, it is natural to understand "weeks" as periods of 7 years, and the 70 weeks to run for 490 years.

Daniel counted the 70 years, and prayed accordingly. The events at the beginning of Matthew and Luke show that the Holy Spirit was preparing the people for the birth of Messiah 30 years before the beginning of his ministry at the end of week 69. At least Simeon and Anna were praying expectantly.

MountainChristian · May 8, 2015

Thank You Pastor Scott.

This has been a lot to think about. I have additional questions I'd like to ask. I do not want to step on Teacher Ian's territory as he may ask many of them in his next posting.

Ian, I look forward to your next posting and how you will handle Scott's last posting.

I want to thank you two men for doing this, it has been a blessing and help to me.

Edited May 13, 2015 by MountainChristian

Genevanpreacher · May 8, 2015

*Ah, I see. So then, you do not recognize that according to the contextual flow of thought, the 69 weeks of Daniel 9:25 are in fact the first 69 weeks of the 70 weeks in Daniel 9:24. In relation to this, could I ask you to explain the intended meaning of and usage for the word "therefore" in Daniel 9:25?
Concerning my declaration that I had quoted directly for God's own Word, I was expressing that specifically (as the context of my statement would indicate) in relation to the contrast between your phrase, "from the explanation by the angel" *(which is a phrase that is not found anywhere at all throughout the entirety of Daniel 9:24-27), and my phrase, "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem" (which is a phrase that actually is quoted word-for-word directly from Daniel 9:25). So then, by what means from the text itself do you make the conclusion that the 70 weeks began "from the explanation by the angel"?
**Now, I am not exactly certain why you emboldened and underlined the phrase, "are determined," in your quotation of Daniel 9:25. However, if I were to venture my best guess in (what appears to be) accord with the flow of thought in your argument, I would guess that you were seeking to emphasize the present tense nature of this verb. Furthermore, I would guess that you were seeking to emphasize this present tense nature in order to support your position that the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:25 were to begin in the present day wherein the angel was delivering his explanation unto Daniel. If my guess is correct on this matter, then I would simply point out that making a determination for something to be done and engaging in the activity of doing that something are not the same thing. Certainly, the Lord God had already made the determination that the 70 weeks (whatever time period they are intended to define) would occur. However, with the explanation of Daniel 9:25 (as per the usage of the word "therefore"), these 70 weeks (or, at least the first 69 weeks of these 70 weeks) were determined actually to begin "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem."

*No such thought, we were discussing, or I was anyway, verse 24. Not verse 25. And verse 24 has 70 weeks not 69.

**Determined was emboldened because it is and has been already firmly established by God as to occur in/through or whatever in 70 weeks of time.

All in all I was being 'curious' about the "what if?" idea of the possibility of something that happened that the verses 'could' have been talking about.

*That's funny, you know I was not quoting scripture. I was in reference to the 'announcement' of these verses from the messenger from God to Daniel, and what followed his 'announcement', not that the timing occurred right after the angel spoke them, but what historical thing/things occurred that those verses covered, after the angel spoke to Daniel, IF anything.

Covenanter · May 8, 2015

Thank You Pastor Scott.
This has been a lot to think about. I have additional questions I'd like to ask. I do not want to step on Teacher Ian's territory as he may ask many of them in his next posting.
Ian, I look forward to your next posting and how you will handle Scott's last posting.
I want to thank you two men for doing this, it has been a blessing and help to me.

I am away with family until next week, so I can't reply properly without my desktop.

Comments are helpful - it's not a private debate. We do need to study deeply, especially as the teaching we have held for years is being challenged. Thanks.

Covenanter · May 8, 2015

The list as stated in the Bible is:
to finish the transgression
to make an end of sins
to make reconciliation for iniquity
to bring in everlasting righteousness
to seal up the vision and prophecy
to anoint the most Holy
Pastor Scott, my real name is Ken. I have a question. Is the list of verse 24 out of order? The anointing occurs at the beginning of the 1000 years?
seal up the vision and prophecy
anoint the most Holy
finish the transgression
make an end of sins
make reconciliation for iniquity
bring in everlasting righteousness
But we know after the 1000 years the Devil is released and people join him in a final rebellion. That is sin. It is the same problem teacher Ian had and you rebutted. Why is sin occurring after the 490 years and the 1000 reign?

A very important question. As all occur within the 70 weeks the order is not significant, though Jesus' anointing/baptism is the first as it marks the beginning of his saving ministry, while his Ascension anointing completes it. The fulfillment of prophecy was explained by Jesus in Luke 24.

The primary points of disagreement so far are that I believe that v. 24 was fulfilled within the 70 weeks - 490 years, and that Daniel's people are the LORD's people - all true believers. Everlasting righteousness is by faith.

We will be studying Romans in my next reply.

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