Comment On Current Debate

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Surely in any other context you would understand "the covenant" as referring to God's covenant relationship with his people Israel.

Confirming the covenant would be the work of God, not an enemy of Israel. 

See e.g. the prophecy of Zechariah in Luke 1:68-79 

(Note: I am aware that Brother Day posted this as a response to Brother Ken "MountainChristian;" however, I would like to deliver a response if it will not be offensive to Brother Ken.  Also, while I was preparing this posting, Brother Ken delivered his above posting.  I pray that this posting of mine will not be seen as in disregard of his.)

 

No, in no context would I assume that the phrase "the covenant" was "referring to God's covenant relationship with His people Israel" simply because the word "covenant" was employed.  Rather, I would study the grammatical and contextual flow of thought of the given passage in order to discern (1) what specific covenant was being referenced in that given context, (2) who specifically was the one making the covenant in that given context, (3) with whom he or she was making the covenant in that given context, etc.  Furthermore, if a form of the word "confirm" was used in that given context in relation to the covenant of that given context, I would study the grammatical and contextual flow of thought of that given context in order to discern who specifically was doing the confirming and in what way he or she was doing that confirming.  

You see, in your above comment you reveal that you have a preconceived assumption when you approach the phrase "the covenant" (which has affected your understanding of Daniel 9:24-27).

[Invicta]

And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.

And Abraham took sheep and oxen, and gave them unto Abimelech; and both of them made a covenant.

Thus they made a covenant at Beersheba: then Abimelech rose up, and Phichol the chief captain of his host, and they returned into the land of the Philistines.

And they said, We saw certainly that the LORD was with thee: and we said, Let there be now an oath betwixt us,even betwixt us and thee, and let us make a covenant with thee;

Now therefore come thou, let us make a covenant, I and thou; and let it be for a witness between me and thee.

Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods.

And they went to Joshua unto the camp at Gilgal, and said unto him, and to the men of Israel, We be come from a far country: now therefore make ye a league with us.

And the men of Israel said unto the Hivites, Peradventure ye dwell among us; and how shall we make a league with you?

Wherefore our elders and all the inhabitants of our country spake to us, saying, Take victuals with you for the journey, and go to meet them, and say unto them, We are your servants: therefore now make ye a league with us.

And Joshua made peace with them, and made a league with them, to let them live: and the princes of the congregation sware unto them.

And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this?

Then Nahash the Ammonite came up, and encamped against Jabeshgilead: and all the men of Jabesh said unto Nahash, Make a covenant with us, and we will serve thee.

Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.

And they two made a covenant before the LORD: and David abode in the wood, and Jonathan went to his house.

And Abner sent messengers to David on his behalf, saying, Whose is the land? saying also, Make thy league with me, and, behold, my hand shall be with thee, to bring about all Israel unto thee.

So all the elders of Israel came to the king to Hebron; and king David made a league with them in Hebron before the LORD: and they anointed David king over Israel.

and the list could go on and on. Just because it says covenant doesn't mean its from God. 

 

 

So?

[Covenanter]

Mountain Christian, those covenants, leagues and treaties are specific and between identified people. 

I suggest you do a blueletterbible search for - the covenant - you will see over 100 references, all to God's covenant. 

[MountainChristian]

It might take me a while to look at all of them. 

[MountainChristian]

102 exact phrases of “the covenant”

1. the token of the covenant (rainbow) - Genesis 9:12, Genesis 9:17

2. a token of the covenant (circumcision) - Genesis 17:11, Acts 7:8

3. the two stone tables of the covenant (ten commandments) - Exodus 34:28, Deuteronomy 9:9, Deuteronomy 9:11, Deuteronomy 9:15

   1. the book of the covenant (law) - Exodus 24:7, Deuteronomy 4:23, Deuteronomy 29:1, Deuteronomy 29:21, 2 Kings 17:38, 2 Kings 23:2, 2 Kings 23:3, 2 Chronicles 34:30, Jeremiah 31:33, Jeremiah 34:10, Jeremiah 34:18, Ezekiel 16:59, Ezekiel 20:37, Hosea 6:7, Galatians 3:17, Hebrews 8:9, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16,

   2. the covenant of the LORD - Joshua 7:15, Joshua 23:16, Psalm 78:10, Proverb 2:17, Isaiah 54:10, Jeremiah 22:9, Jeremiah 31:32, Daniel 9:4,

   3. the ark of the covenant of the LORD (ark) - Numbers 10:33, Numbers 14:44, Deuteronomy 10:8, Deuteronomy 31:9, Deuteronomy 31:25, Deuteronomy 31:26, Joshua 3:3, Joshua 3:6, Joshua 3:11, Joshua 3:14, Joshua 3:17, Joshua 4:7, Joshua 4:9, Joshua 4:18, Joshua 6:6, Joshua 6:8, Joshua 8:33, 1 Samuel 4:3, 1 Samuel 4:4, 1 Samuel 4:5, 2 Samuel 15:24, 1 Kings 3:15, 1 Kings 6:19, 1 Kings 8:1, 1 Kings 8:6, 1 Kings 8:21, 1 Chronicles 15:25, 1 Chronicles 15:26, 1 Chronicles 15:28, 1 Chronicles 15:29, 1 Chronicles 16:6, 1 Chronicles 16:37, 1 Chronicles 17:1, 1 Chronicles 22:19, 1 Chronicles 28:2, 1 Chronicles 28:18, 2 Chronicles 5:2, 2 Chronicles 5:7, 2 Chronicles 6:11, 2 Chronicles 34:31, Hebrews 9:4,

4. the blood of the covenant (animals) - Exodus 24:8

   1. (Jesus) - Hebrews 10:29

5. the salt of the covenant - 7Leviticus 2:13

6. the covenant of their ancestors (ancestors/forefathers) - Leviticus 26:45, Deuteronomy 4:31, Deuteronomy 7:12, Deuteronomy 29:25, 1 Chronicles 16:16, 2 Chronicles 34:32, Malachi 2:10, Acts 3:25,

7. the covenant of an everlasting priesthood (Phinehas) - Numbers 25:13

   1. priesthood - Neh 13:29, Malachi 2:8,

8. the covenant that God had made with David - 2 Chronicles 21:7

9. the covenant of thy servant - Psalm 89:39

10. the covenant between Babylon and Jerusalem - Ezekiel 17:15, Ezekiel 17:18,

11. the messenger of the covenant (John the Baptist) - Malachi 3:1

Psalm 74:20 Have respect unto the covenant: for the dark places of the earth are full of the habitations of cruelty.

Isaiah 33:8 The highways lie waste, the wayfaring man ceaseth: he hath broken the covenant, he hath despised the cities, he regardeth no man.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

I can't see how "the covenant" proves anyone's idea about v27.

[Covenanter]

That is a very helpful analysis of the "the covenant" Scriptures. Thanks, Mountain Christian.

You add - I can't see how "the covenant" proves anyone's idea about v27 - Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Let's look at item 10 - the covenant between Babylon and Jerusalem in Ezek. 17 & Jer. 34. 

Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, had defeated Judah & taken King Jeconiah/Jehoiachin to Babylon & set up Zedekiah as a vassal king under a covenant to rule for Babylon. Eze. 17:11-14 Zedekiah broke that covenant by asking Egypt for military support. 

Under the duress of submission to Babylon, Zedekiah & all the people of Jerusalem made a covenant to free all their Jewish servants. Jer. 34:8-10 This was according to God's covenant with Israel. Exo. 21:2

A covenant is a very special promise, which godly men such as Joshua & his princes dare not break, even to their loss. Josh. 9. Zedekiah used & broke covenants to his own advantage. Jer. 34 & Eze. 17 & God holds him to account. Jer. 34:12-22 & Eze. 17:15-21

While the covenant-commandments had been broken repeatedly, & the nation had responded to such kings as Hezekiah & Josiah, now we see in Zedekiah a king who flouts covenants, not only with God, but also with men -  with his master Nebuchadnezzar who made him king under a covenant, & with his Jewish servants he had set free by a covenant. So Daniel prays: 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments; 5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:

God in fact had kept his covenant by judging them by Babylon: Deu. 29:

24 Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this land? what meaneth the heat of this great anger? 
25 Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:

Daniel knew Jeremiah's prophecies, one of which concerns a new & effective & unbreakable covenant. Jer. 31:31-37 We understand the covenant to be confirmed is the new covenant/testament in Jesus' blood. But why with many for one week? Not because it could be broken, nor revoked, but because the covenant from the first promises to Abram were for the blessing of all families on earth. So after many thousands of Jews had the covenant confirmed by Jesus' ministry, & the Apostolic Gospel preaching, the preaching was widened to count in the Samaritans & the uttermost part of the earth.  

I've learnt much from your question, MC; thanks again. 

 

 

 

 

[Genevanpreacher]

Help me out here, please, I have a question about this verse in Dan. 9.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

What about the timing here?

There is a total of seventy weeks, right? Why the comma between the two timings in Verse 25?

And why does it say in verse 26 "after threescore and two weeks"?

If each week equals 7 years, then 70 weeks equals 490 years? Then verse 25 has 2 numberings, 49 years and 434 years. Equaling together 483 years.

Why the division of the two?

[Invicta]

Help me out here, please, I have a question about this verse in Dan. 9.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

What about the timing here?

There is a total of seventy weeks, right? Why the comma between the two timings in Verse 25?

And why does it say in verse 26 "after threescore and two weeks"?

If each week equals 7 years, then 70 weeks equals 490 years? Then verse 25 has 2 numberings, 49 years and 434 years. Equaling together 483 years.

Why the division of the two?

I would say it was the 7 weeks, 49 years between the commandment of Cyrus and the completion of the repair by Nehemiah.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Help me out here, please, I have a question about this verse in Dan. 9.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

What about the timing here?

There is a total of seventy weeks, right? Why the comma between the two timings in Verse 25?

And why does it say in verse 26 "after threescore and two weeks"?

If each week equals 7 years, then 70 weeks equals 490 years? Then verse 25 has 2 numberings, 49 years and 434 years. Equaling together 483 years.

Why the division of the two?

If I am permitted to do so, I will present my agreement with Brother "Invicta's" answer above --

I would say it was the 7 weeks, 49 years between the commandment of Cyrus and the completion of the repair by Nehemiah.

Furthermore, I would point to a statement within the very context of Daniel 9:25 for the presentation of my answer.  Contextually, it appears that the independent statement (clause) at the end of Daniel 9:25 speaks concerning the events that will occur during that first "seven weeks" period (or, the first 49 year period).  Then it appears that the additional "threescore and two weeks" period (or, the addition 434 year period) is a space of time between the completion of those events and "the Messiah the Prince."

Edited July 14, 2015 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Genevanpreacher]

So now English grammar rules don't matter when it comes to the verses of scripture?

A quote from Scotts current post on Daniel 9 debate:

"It is true that the rules of English grammar forbid the use of common conjunctions at the beginning of sentences in formal writing.  However, the language in which God the Holy Spirit inspired the Holy Scriptures was not English.  Rather, the original languages of Holy Spirit inspiration were Hebrew (for the Old Testament) and Greek (for the New Testament).  Now, in both Hebrew and Greek it is grammatically acceptable and common to use a common conjunction at the beginning of sentences.  Even so, out of reverence for Holy Spirit inspiration and for the sake of translational accuracy, the translators of the King James translation included these conjunctions at the beginning of sentences (and even paragraphs) in their translation."

Interesting thoughts there Scott. Kinda sounds like what I have said before, about the 'english' back then not being ruled by the same 'grammar' rules that we use now, doesn't it?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

So now English grammar rules don't matter when it comes to the verses of scripture?

A quote from Scotts current post on Daniel 9 debate:

"It is true that the rules of English grammar forbid the use of common conjunctions at the beginning of sentences in formal writing.  However, the language in which God the Holy Spirit inspired the Holy Scriptures was not English.  Rather, the original languages of Holy Spirit inspiration were Hebrew (for the Old Testament) and Greek (for the New Testament).  Now, in both Hebrew and Greek it is grammatically acceptable and common to use a common conjunction at the beginning of sentences.  Even so, out of reverence for Holy Spirit inspiration and for the sake of translational accuracy, the translators of the King James translation included these conjunctions at the beginning of sentences (and even paragraphs) in their translation."

Interesting thoughts there Scott. Kinda sounds like what I have said before, about the 'english' back then not being ruled by the same 'grammar' rules that we use now, doesn't it?

Brother "Genevanpreacher,"

If your comments above are intended to imply that I would support a viewpoint that in Biblical Scripture the grammatical meanings of the parts of speech and the parts of a sentence are not relevant, then you would certainly be mistaken.  If your comments are intended to imply that I would support a viewpoint that in Biblical Scripture the subject does not carry the grammatical meaning of the subject, that the verb, whether active, passive, linking, past tense, present tense, future tense, etc., does not carry the respective grammatical meaning of the verb, that the direct object or indirect object does not carry the grammatical meaning of either the direct object or indirect object, that the predicate nominative or predicate adjective does not carry the grammatical meaning either of the predicate nominative or predicate adjective, the the adjective or adverb does not carry the grammatical meaning either of the adjective or adverb, that the preposition and its prepositional phrase do not carry the grammatical meaning of the prepositional phrase, that dependent clauses do not carry the respective grammatical meaning of the various dependent clauses, that verbal phrases do not carry the respective grammatical meaning of the various verbal phrases, then you would not at all be correct.

However, if your comment above is intended to acknowledge my recognition that a single, customary English grammar rule concerning formal English writing (that is -- that a sentence should not begin with a common conjunction) is not followed in the King James translation of Biblical Scripture, then you would be correct.  On the other hand, it is both accepted and common to employ the common conjunction at the beginning of an English sentence in non-formal English writing.  Furthermore, when this occurs, that common conjunction at the beginning of the sentence possess a regular and recognizable grammatical meaning, which is also true when such occurs in Biblical Scripture.

(Note: The original context for my quoted statements above concerned the usage of the coordinating conjunction "and" at the beginning of each and every independent statement-sentence (clause) in Daniel 9:26-27, about which Brother Ian Day expressed the fact that he would not have been permitted such a grammatical construction in his university writing.  Such is certainly true, since the research writing required in university assignments are considered formal English writing.  Yet in the King James translation of the Biblical Scriptures, conjunctions are commonly found at the beginning of independent sentences, not because Biblical Scripture is considered non-formal writing, but (as I indicated in my above quote) in order to maintain translational accuracy from the original, Holy Spirit inspired Hebrew and Greek writings.)

Edited July 25, 2015 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Genevanpreacher]

Brother Scott?

Are you EVER short winded?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Brother Scott?

Are you EVER short winded?

No. 

[Covenanter]

My point about English grammar concerned King Edward VI Grammar School, founded in 1553, not university.

English grammar was not a particular concern for a science degree. Precision of language & clarity of thought were primary concerns. And, of course, facts. 

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2015 by Covenanter
Edit - 2 sentences added.

[Alimantado]

My point about English grammar concerned King Edward VI Grammar School, founded in 1553, not university.

English grammar was not a particular concern for a science degree. Precision of language & clarity of thought were primary concerns. And, of course, facts.

(Note: The original context for my quoted statements above concerned the usage of the coordinating conjunction "and" at the beginning of each and every independent statement-sentence (clause) in Daniel 9:26-27, about which Brother Ian Day expressed the fact that he would not have been permitted such a grammatical construction in his university King Edward VI Grammar School (founded 1553) writing. Such is certainly true, since the research writing required in university King Edward VI Grammar School (founded 1553) assignments are considered formal English writing. Yet in the King James translation of the Biblical Scriptures, conjunctions are commonly found at the beginning of independent sentences, not because Biblical Scripture is considered non-formal writing, but (as I indicated in my above quote) in order to maintain translational accuracy from the original, Holy Spirit inspired Hebrew and Greek writings.)

 

Sorted. On with the discussion...

Edited July 29, 2015 by Alimantado
To fix randomly inserted paragraph elements that could only be removed by manually editing the HTML source!