Members Potatochip Posted February 11, 2015 Members Posted February 11, 2015 Well my little diatribe lol on a Holy Nation. Seems like from the original question. The answers have gone every which a way lol. Romans 9 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. The Gospel saves of course. It's not how one reasons with anyone or how they percieve anything. The Gospel saves: Romans 1:16 King James Version (KJV) 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Covenanter and No Nicolaitans 2 Quote
Members Genevanpreacher Posted February 11, 2015 Members Posted February 11, 2015 In Isaiah 56 - 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him. And Revelation 7 - 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white rOBes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. Gentiles within Israel? Yes. God said they could become part of Israel. Unless I misunderstand the Old Testament. Covenanter and Martyr_4_FutureJoy 1 1 Quote
Members No Nicolaitans Posted February 11, 2015 Members Posted February 11, 2015 In Isaiah 56 - 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him. And Revelation 7 - 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white rOBes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. Gentiles within Israel? Yes. God said they could become part of Israel. Unless I misunderstand the Old Testament. Absolutely "strangers" could become part of Israel. However, again, we are talking about the nation and actual people of Israel. From the verses you quoted...including the previous verses... Isaiah 56:1-8 1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath1 from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths2, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath3 from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain4, and make them joyful in my house of prayer5: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer6 for all people. 8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him. 1 Christians don't keep the sabbath; that was for Israel...under the law. 2 Christians don't keep the sabbath; that was for Israel...under the law. 3 Christians don't keep the sabbath; that was for Israel...under the law. 4 God's holy mountain is in Jerusalem...in Israel. 5 God's house of prayer is the temple...in Jerusalem...in Israel. 6 The Lord Jesus Christ quoted this when he cleansed...the temple...in Jerusalem...in Israel. Martyr_4_FutureJoy and LindaR 1 1 Quote
Members Invicta Posted February 11, 2015 Members Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) Absolutely "strangers" could become part of Israel. However, again, we are talking about the nation and actual people of Israel. From the verses you quoted...including the previous verses... Isaiah 56:1-8 1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath1 from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths2, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath3 from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain4, and make them joyful in my house of prayer5: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer6 for all people. 8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him. 1 Christians don't keep the sabbath; that was for Israel...under the law. 2 Christians don't keep the sabbath; that was for Israel...under the law. 3 Christians don't keep the sabbath; that was for Israel...under the law. 4 God's holy mountain is in Jerusalem...in Israel. 5 God's house of prayer is the temple...in Jerusalem...in Israel. 6 The Lord Jesus Christ quoted this when he cleansed...the temple...in Jerusalem...in Israel. Sorry. I don't understand your point here. Stranger(s) in the KJB means foreigners. This is carried over from the French (Norman) conquest. The French for foreigner is étranger. This would originally have been estranger but the French dropped the 's' and we dropped the 'e'. as in a number of other cases. such as école = school. One where we have dropped the'S' but the French have kept it is Spain. In English of 1611 stranger=foreigner. Edited February 12, 2015 by Invicta Quote
Members No Nicolaitans Posted February 12, 2015 Members Posted February 12, 2015 Sorry. I don't understand your point here. Stranger(s) in the KJB means foreigners. This is carried over from the French (Norman) conquest. The French for foreigner is étranger. This would originally have been estranger but the French dropped the 's' and we dropped the 'e'. as in a number of other cases. such as école = school. One where we have dropped the'S' but the French have kept it is Spain. In English of 1611 stranger=foreigner. Invicta, I was responding to GenevanPreacher; in that, he pointed out that the Bible shows that Gentiles can become part of Israel...I guess he did so to give credence to his belief that the church and Israel are the same. He referenced a portion of scripture which spoke of "strangers" joining Israel. I agree with you; in that, strangers are foreigners...therefore, the strangers were Gentiles who joined in with Israel. I was only showing that the scripture he used was speaking of the literal land of Israel and the literal Jews. That portion of scripture not only shows that, but also shows that those "strangers" who joined Israel were subject to the law...not grace. Other portions of scripture also show the same. Hope that helps? LindaR and Martyr_4_FutureJoy 1 1 Quote
Members Genevanpreacher Posted February 12, 2015 Members Posted February 12, 2015 Invicta, I was responding to GenevanPreacher; in that, he pointed out that the Bible shows that Gentiles can become part of Israel...I guess he did so to give credence to his belief that the church and Israel are the same. He referenced a portion of scripture which spoke of "strangers" joining Israel. I agree with you; in that, strangers are foreigners...therefore, the strangers were Gentiles who joined in with Israel. I was only showing that the scripture he used was speaking of the literal land of Israel and the literal Jews. That portion of scripture not only shows that, but also shows that those "strangers" who joined Israel were subject to the law...not grace. Other portions of scripture also show the same. Hope that helps? Actually I was showing that Israel was made up some who were not Israelites. That's all. Martyr_4_FutureJoy 1 Quote
Members Covenanter Posted February 12, 2015 Members Posted February 12, 2015 The Israel/church argument will run and run. Can we not resolve the argument by seeing all the redeemed as the Covenant people of God? That relationship runs through all the "dispensations." It counts in Israel, Jew and Gentiles for all eternity. Lev. 26:9-12 Eze. 37:26-27 2 Cor. 6:16 Rev. 21:3 Quote
Members LindaR Posted February 12, 2015 Author Members Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) The conclusion of the matter: Israel is Israel - a nation and people chosen by God which is distinct and separate from the Church, which is the Body of Christ, composed of all the saved/redeemed, both Jew and Gentile. The Church is the Church The church is built upon Christ. The church did not exist in the Old Testament. It is an entity distinct from Israel (1 Corinthians 10:32). The Church is not Israel, and Israel is not the Church. The end! ************************************************************************************** Aug 6 2014 The Latest Threat to Evangelical Support for Israel [Excerpts] Targeting young Evangelicals at top Christian universities has also been an extremely effective tool in the hands of those seeking to erode Evangelical support for Israel. This is particularly the case in the field of theology. One of the defining characteristics of an Evangelical is their commitment to Biblical authority. They believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God and therefore a trustworthy guide for how Christians should approach both personal and political issues. Wheaton College’s Dr. Gary Burge has dedicated much of his work to formulating a biblical argument against supporting Israel. In addition to his endeavors inspiring young Evangelicals to abandon support for Israel, he also has worked to inspire his own denomination to take a hardline approach to Israel as well. As an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church (USA), Burge’s writings have played heavily in the recent decision of his church to divest in three companies that do business in Israel. The outrageously biased and anti-Israel study guide Zionism Unsettled included a chapter on Evangelicals and Christian Zionism taken from Burge’s work on the subject. His basic message is that the land of Israel is no longer important to God’s redemptive plan for humanity. The Kingdom of God, which was established by Jesus, fulfills all the promises God made to Abraham and the people of Israel. Thus, there is no need for an earthly “kingdom” for the Jews. As Burge told the participants at the [2010] “Christ at the Checkpoint” conference, “It is not that the covenant of Abraham has been rejected; nor that it has been replaced or superseded; it has been fulfilled.” Using the term “fulfilled” is, essentially, an attempt to get around the nasty history of supercessionism and replacement theology, which hold that the coming of Jesus abrogated God’s covenant with the Jews and they are no longer a chosen people. To non-Evangelicals, it may seem to be simply a matter of semantics, but its implications are extreme: The Jewish people and especially the modern State of Israel have no special significance to God. Rather than using the imagery St. Paul offers—of the gentiles being grafted on to the vine of a faithful Israel—this view sees Israel as the egg from which Jesus hatches and then discards the shell. This message of “fulfillment theology” is often coupled with stories of Palestinian Christians who have lost their land to Jews. In the film With God on Our Side —which is routinely shown at Evangelical colleges—Salim Munayer, founder of the reconciliation ministry Musalaha, stands beneath an olive tree and describes how his family lost their land in 1948 and their subsequent mistreatment by American Christians. “Quite often I meet Christian Zionist groups that don’t understand the implications of Christian Zionism,” he says. “The implication of Christian Zionism, the way we hear it here, is [that] to accept this theology is to commit suicide as a people group.” This is an explosive challenge to the average American Evangelical: How can you support a theology that causes people to suffer? While this challenge may be emotionally effective in persuading some younger Evangelicals to reject the idea of God’s faithfulness to Israel, it ignores the rOBust Christian theology of suffering, as well as political realities that are hidden by fear. The Christian theology of suffering recognizes, for example, that God allows suffering for a season in order to further his redemptive plan for humanity. At the same time, the political reality is that Palestinian Christians are suffering less at the hands of Israel than those of Palestinian nationalists and Islamic radicals. Christy Anastas, for example, a Palestinian Christian from Bethlehem, has courageously broken the silence on how land is routinely stolen from Palestinian Christians by other Palestinians: Palestinians are stealing other Palestinians lands—especially Christian lands. I have four uncles who lost half their land by people from Hebron. Just like that. They went to court to ask for their rights. The judge, sadly was from Hebron. He said to them, I can’t wait to see the four of you dead in the fridges. The price Christy paid for speaking out was significant. She was disowned by her family and forced to flee to the UK, where she received asylum. Unfortunately, films like With God on Our Side refuse to acknowledge that the price of speaking out against Palestinian corruption, or even of not hating Israel enough, is too much for many Palestinians. It’s easier to go along with the crowd and blame Israel. http://www.thetower.org/article/the-latest-threat-to-evangelical-support... Edited February 12, 2015 by LindaR No Nicolaitans and Alan 2 Quote
Members ThePilgrim Posted February 12, 2015 Members Posted February 12, 2015 It is not important to ThePilgrim who his parents were. He doesn't care whether they were Jew or Gentile. He only cares that he is saved by grace by a wonderful Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ. He also prays that all men would find the same joy in Saviour's salvation he has found. ThePilgrim will let the theologians worry about who will inherit a piece of land on this earth . . . . He knows he has a heavenly home awaiting for him. Covenanter 1 Quote
Members Invicta Posted February 12, 2015 Members Posted February 12, 2015 Rahab, the Harlot was the mother of Boaz. She was a Gentile. I have no doubt she was saved, and possibly her family. Ruth the Moabitess was a Gentile and the wife of Boaz. I have no doubt she was saved. Were they saved by keeping the law or by looking forward to Christ, their Saviour. Genevanpreacher, Martyr_4_FutureJoy and Covenanter 1 2 Quote
Members Alan Posted February 13, 2015 Members Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) LindaR, Thank you for your fine post, enlightenment, and exposing the erroneous teaching of men like Dr. Gary Burge, Wheaton College towards God's chosen people; the Jews. God's Covenant with Abraham, the Partiarch's, King David and the prophetic words of the prophets, have not been fulfilled as Dr. Burge, and others, teach through, 'replacement theology,' or 'fulfillment theology,' or some other method to replace the Covenent and promises to God to Israel. 'Next year in Jerusalem.' Edited February 13, 2015 by AlanTaiwan LindaR 1 Quote
Members No Nicolaitans Posted February 13, 2015 Members Posted February 13, 2015 Rahab, the Harlot was the mother of Boaz. She was a Gentile. I have no doubt she was saved, and possibly her family. Ruth the Moabitess was a Gentile and the wife of Boaz. I have no doubt she was saved. Were they saved by keeping the law or by looking forward to Christ, their Saviour. Invicta, I've made my position clear many times on this forum; in that, salvation has always, is, and will always be by grace through faith. If your post was in response to mine above, I wasn't speaking of salvation. I can see how one could have misunderstood due to this statement I made... That portion of scripture not only shows that, but also shows that those "strangers" who joined Israel were subject to the law...not grace. Perhaps I could have worded it better, but I was merely pointing out that the scriptures made it clear that the strangers who joined Israel were... joining the actual people in Israel, in the actual land of Israel, and they were also subject to the actual law that God gave to Israel. The church (grace) was given no such directive by God, and in using the term "grace", I was referring to the church; not salvation. That still doesn't adequately describe what I was trying to say, so I'll just stop trying to explain it. LindaR and Martyr_4_FutureJoy 1 1 Quote
Members Potatochip Posted February 13, 2015 Members Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) Well still looks like answers many of them are off question lol. The strangers part I don't know. In Judges I believe some people were left alive and remained. There is Christian Zionism lol. Which is a curious thing to me. I don't know. On the one hand. I wonder if Paul would be a Christian Zionist. The Diaspora certainly didn't seem to upset many. There seems to be a verse that says: I will seek to destroy the nations that come against Israel. In Zech. Me I have not much of an opinion. Where that verse is in place and time. I don't know. Nope. For me this is not all about Israel. But the Kingdom of Heaven. If indeed after this many years out of the land. God intends to bring about the Kingdom of Heaven. That would mean a lot of peoples play a part in this. Including the Jews and Israel. However the big news is the Kingdom of Heaven. Christian Zionism lol. I don't know I'll stick with the Kingdom of Heaven One other thing I want to add. Or two. Praying for the peace of Jerusalem. Also those that love Jerusalem. Praying (as Christians have been for years) Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done. Potentialy in my mind anyway accomplishes both of those things in a Saintly way. Both the peace and the loving of Jerusalem. Edited February 13, 2015 by Potatochip Covenanter 1 Quote
Members Invicta Posted February 13, 2015 Members Posted February 13, 2015 The Jews are a chosen people, but so are Christian believers. Quote
Members LindaR Posted February 17, 2015 Author Members Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) I found this on the IsraelVideoNetwork website…an article listing “16 Things That Give Israel A Bad Name But Aren’t Really True”. The first statement listed was "Jews in Israel are White European Colonialists" Then the question “What Is Another Word for ‘Israeli?’ ” The Answer: Indigenous! “The Jewish people are indigenous to Israel, the birthplace of their identity and unique culture, and have maintained a documented presence there for over 3,000 years. Half of modern Israel’s Jews returned home to Israel from the Middle East, Africa, and Asia. Jews who came from Europe were not colonialists. They did not represent a foreign power and rejected any identification with European nations. They were idealists who sought to restore and preserve their unique heritage and fought for the same rights that are granted to all peoples: self-determination and independence in their ancestral home. Over 150 years ago, Jews returned in ever-larger numbers, again became the majority in Jerusalem in the 1860s, and established Tel Aviv in 1909. In 1920 the international community officially recognized the indigenous rights of the Jewish people and endorsed the restoration of the Jewish Homeland.” I recommend reading that entire list of 16 statements and the responses. Edited February 17, 2015 by LindaR Standing Firm In Christ 1 Quote
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