Separating from Ray Boltz

[Guest Guest]

Thanks Candlelight, but this time I wasn't joking! I've never heard the term CCM, so I wanted to know if it meant 'modern modern', as in songs being written now, or 'modern' as in American gospel music, like 'Leaning on the everlasting arms'. That's one of my favourite songs ever, btw.

Oh...I know Alimantado. You live in England. Your country is more conservative with music still, I gather? That is good. :smile

[Guest Guest]

candle - the laughing revival is just what it sounds like. The congregation laughs. It sounds kinda silly' date=' but it really isn't.[/quote']

It sounds really weird to me. Once I got started laughing...I wouldn't be able to stop. :Green It sounds outrageously contagious. :roll

[PreacherBen]

kindofblue you made some valid points on worship is different and different kinds of intruments and energy are put into worship. I have absolutely NO problem with that. However, the Lord has given us scriptural principles that we should use to guide us through the process of deciding just what we should and should not promote. I want to be fair and open and say that there is some CCM, some country gospel, some bluegrass gospel, type music that I enjoy beside just the tried and proven hymns and chorus'. Here is something I wrote before and I hope it will shed some light.

Sincerely,
Bro. Ben

...........begin article.............

This is hard to nail down in a short form. There are many points on which to judge for example:

1. The life of the singer. Willie Nelson, not in good standing with the church, singing, 'Revive Us Again.' Here, we have an obvious wicked man singing this great hymn. I am going to avoid this because of his influence on the music industry as well as the hearer.

2Cr 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

2. The testimony of "supposed" Christian musician. This applies more to those in the Southern Gospel, CCM, etc., genre. They proclaim salvation (which is between them and the Lord,) but they have, sometimes, long hair, which is unscriptural, and questionable allegiances. Amy Grant singing with the lead singer from the 70's/80's hard rock band Chicago.

2Cr 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? My children a watching and listening. Is this what I want them to be? Or if I am single, is this what I want those with whom I fellowship to be like?

3. The type of music. Honest question here: Where did Rock, Pop, Rap, Country, etc. come from...the church? No, in most cases bars, clubs, honky tonks, etc. It transmigrated into the gospel music industry, found acceptance by the church, and ended up in our music cabinet. Did acceptance make it o.k.?

2Cr 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

4. The style in which it is played. Is it moving my heart to Spirit-filled worship of Christ, or is it stimulating my flesh like the juke joint stuff I forsook, with it's accompanying habits. My old flesh loves the hippy rock I used to listen to. I have to discipline it to leave that stuff alone. When I hear a driving beat in a "gospel" song, my flesh still gets revved up by that beat. Maybe it's just me, but it is something to consider.

Amo 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

I'm sure there are other things to consider, and some may disagree wholeheartedly with what I have said. I used to be a lead vocalist in Heavy Metal type rock. I remember the spirit that was in it. I remember the influence it had on my life.

Humble repentance and a sweet walk with Christ is the best way to get clear communication with the Spirit of God and to know what is pleasing to Him.

Bro. Ben

[HappyChristian]

kindofblue you made some valid points on worship is different and different kinds of intruments and energy are put into worship. I have absolutely NO problem with that. However, the Lord has given us scriptural principles that we should use to guide us through the process of deciding just what we should and should not promote. I want to be fair and open and say that there is some CCM, some country gospel, some bluegrass gospel, type music that I enjoy beside just the tried and proven hymns and chorus'. Here is something I wrote before and I hope it will shed some light.

Sincerely,
Bro. Ben

...........begin article.............

This is hard to nail down in a short form. There are many points on which to judge for example:

1. The life of the singer. Willie Nelson, not in good standing with the church, singing, 'Revive Us Again.' Here, we have an obvious wicked man singing this great hymn. I am going to avoid this because of his influence on the music industry as well as the hearer.
2Cr 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

2. The testimony of "supposed" Christian musician. This applies more to those in the Southern Gospel, CCM, etc., genre. They proclaim salvation (which is between them and the Lord,) but they have, sometimes, long hair, which is unscriptural, and questionable allegiances. Amy Grant singing with the lead singer from the 70's/80's hard rock band Chicago.
2Cr 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? My children a watching and listening. Is this what I want them to be? Or if I am single, is this what I want those with whom I fellowship to be like?

3. The type of music. Honest question here: Where did Rock, Pop, Rap, Country, etc. come from...the church? No, in most cases bars, clubs, honky tonks, etc. It transmigrated into the gospel music industry, found acceptance by the church, and ended up in our music cabinet. Did acceptance make it o.k.?
2Cr 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

4. The style in which it is played. Is it moving my heart to Spirit-filled worship of Christ, or is it stimulating my flesh like the juke joint stuff I forsook, with it's accompanying habits. My old flesh loves the hippy rock I used to listen to. I have to discipline it to leave that stuff alone. When I hear a driving beat in a "gospel" song, my flesh still gets revved up by that beat. Maybe it's just me, but it is something to consider.
Amo 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

I'm sure there are other things to consider, and some may disagree wholeheartedly with what I have said. I used to be a lead vocalist in Heavy Metal type rock. I remember the spirit that was in it. I remember the influence it had on my life.

Humble repentance and a sweet walk with Christ is the best way to get clear communication with the Spirit of God and to know what is pleasing to Him.

Bro. Ben

:goodpost:

[Alimantado]

You live in England. Your country is more conservative with music still' date=' I gather? That is good. :smile[/quote']
I expect it's much the same as in the US. I think there are lots of churches that sing CCM songs--now that I recognise what it is. There are definitely lots that are charismatic and have full worship bands and big screens and people putting their hands in the air when they sing and stuff like that. But, from what I've experienced, the majority of churches still sing psalms or traditional English hymns, like 'Thou Art the Everlasting Word', with a pipe organ accompaniment.

In these traditional churches, songs like 'Leaning on the everlasting arms' would be considered American gospel and they would very rarely be sung, just because of tradition. Conversely, charismatic churches seem to stick solely to very modern songs (CCM), so older American songs like 'Leaning on the everlasting arms' and 'Sweet hour of prayer' apparently never get sung anywhere, which is a great shame because they are beautiful!

[JerryNumbers]

What is CCM? Would a modern worship song like 'Leaning on the everlasting arms' be classed as CCM?

Yes, its fairly modern, 1887. :roll


LEANING ON THE EVERLASTING ARMS

What a fellowship, what a joy divine,
Leaning on the everlasting arms;
What a blessedness, what a peace is mine,
Leaning on the everlasting arms.
Leaning, leaning,
Safe and secure from all alarms;
Leaning, leaning,
Leaning on the everlasting arms.

O how sweet to walk in this pilgrim way,
Leaning on the everlasting arms;
O how bright the path grows from day to day,
Leaning on the everlasting arms.
Leaning, leaning,
Safe and secure from all alarms;
Leaning, leaning,
Leaning on the everlasting arms.

What have I to dread, what have I to fear,
Leaning on the everlasting arms;
I have bless

[Alimantado]

It was an innocent question, Jerry. :smile

What I've always classed as 'gospel' music (like 'Leaning...') is a comparatively modern music genre and it wasn't outside the realm of possibility that people on here were using 'CCM' to mean that style. That's why I asked for clarification--I'd never heard the term 'CCM' before.

Some churches will only sing psalms, so it isn't just 20th/21st century music that gets frowned upon--another reason why I asked what 'CCM' meant.

'Leaning on the everlasting arms' is one of my favourite songs but I've never had the opportunity to sing it in a church. :-( The one I attend right now only seems to sing English hymns that are at least 150 years old.

[JerryNumbers]

It was an innocent question, Jerry. :smile

What I've always classed as 'gospel' music (like 'Leaning...') is a comparatively modern music genre and it wasn't outside the realm of possibility that people on here were using 'CCM' to mean that style. That's why I asked for clarification--I'd never heard the term 'CCM' before.

Some churches will only sing psalms, so it isn't just 20th/21st century music that gets frowned upon--another reason why I asked what 'CCM' meant.

'Leaning on the everlasting arms' is one of my favourite songs but I've never had the opportunity to sing it in a church. :-( The one I attend right now only seems to sing English hymns that are at least 150 years old.

That's OK, ever now an again I will hear a song and thinks its a new one, them find out its been around over 100 years. :roll

Thought that was cute!

To me most of, what little I've heard of the CCM has a different sound that the old traditional hymns.

There are many of the modern singers who completely ruin old hymns by singing them with a modern sound, changing the sound up, which as far as I'm concerned ruins the good old song.

The only Christians radio stations, 3, that we can receive on the radio play a mix of music, it includes both Southern Gospel and CCM music, 2 of them I will hardly ever listen to. Thankfully at about the time we leave home each Sunday evening for church that one radio station usually plays some old hymns.

[copper]

I am not trying to sound rude, but it would be good for you to become a little enlightened about who he is and what he sings. You (or your church) might be singing (or playing) his music without you realizing it. Ignorance is not bliss.

We only sing hymns at our church, so, unless he is really, really, REALLY OLD, it wouldn't apply. If you stay on the old paths and away from all the "new stuff" you can pretty much insure that you won't get trapped in this sort of thing.

:amen:

[kevinmiller]

The hymns were "new" at one time, too. :wink

[John81]

Really? Do you have proof? Were you there? Do you know any eyewitnesses? Are you willing to testify to this in a court of law...or a tribunal... :uuhm:







































:smile :wvlf"

[Guest Guest]

So funny...I had to bump this thread. John...your post is hysterical. :lol

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Question:
Does separating from Ray Boltz mean one has to dismiss such songs as "Thank You For Giving To The Lord," and "The Altar"?

Thought, just because Ray has obviously no comprehension of who God truly is and that homosexuality is an abomination in God's eyes does not mean that God did not give him those lyrics to reveal to him his need for a Savior.

So, is it wrong to accept the message of the song or even sing it considering who the lyrics themselves may reach?

Think about this... King James was not a Christian, yet he authorized the translating of the King James Bible. Sure, he did not translate the Bible himself and used scholars of Greek and Hebrew, but his name was put on the final product. The NIV translators consulted with a known lesbian in their translating, other translators of other versions has skeletons as well, I am sure.

So, are we going to be consistent? Do we toss our Bible out since some translators or consultants were not of God too? Do we dismiss lyrics of songs completely because of the songwriter/singer?

If that is the case, we had better throw away every song and book in our possession.

Use wisdom brethren... if the words truly line up with God's Word and His Holy nature, there is nothing wrong with them.

[John81]

Question:
Does separating from Ray Boltz mean one has to dismiss such songs as "Thank You For Giving To The Lord," and "The Altar"?

Thought, just because Ray has obviously no comprehension of who God truly is and that homosexuality is an abomination in God's eyes does not mean that God did not give him those lyrics to reveal to him his need for a Savior.

So, is it wrong to accept the message of the song or even sing it considering who the lyrics themselves may reach?

Think about this... King James was not a Christian, yet he authorized the translating of the King James Bible. Sure, he did not translate the Bible himself and used scholars of Greek and Hebrew, but his name was put on the final product. The NIV translators consulted with a known lesbian in their translating, other translators of other versions has skeletons as well, I am sure.

So, are we going to be consistent? Do we toss our Bible out since some translators or consultants were not of God too? Do we dismiss lyrics of songs completely because of the songwriter/singer?

If that is the case, we had better throw away every song and book in our possession.

Use wisdom brethren... if the words truly line up with God's Word and His Holy nature, there is nothing wrong with them.

While I think I've heard the song "Thank You For Giving To The Lord" somewhere, I don't know who Ray Boltz is or anything about him.

For myself, I judge songs by the lyrics, not by who wrote them or who happens to sing them.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

The same here.

So many want to dismiss the song because of the person when the fact is not one person in this world is perfect.

But the question remains, why is it ok to dismiss godly lyrics because the one who wrote them is obviously not saved when the Bible they read was published or printed by companies that are not saved... or some of their employees in charge of printing those Bibles.

Should we not be consistent and toss the Bibles out too? Even the translators of our trusted KJV were not perfect in their lives. Not one is without sin.