So Where Was Baptism For Salvation In The Ot?

[AVBibleBeliever]

??

"Then said he to the people that came out to be baptized of him..." Luke 3:7 which continues to verse 10 which says, "Then the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?"

 

I did not make it up. Did I?

no, but you are messing with grammatical structure.  It may continue but is was not about them doing it before he baptized them.  It was something in addition to their being baptized because the gospel of the Kingdom was a work based salvation process as was all salvatin under the economy of Law.

 

It is like a question some new believers will ask, "now that I am saved how should I live"?  these were baptized and they were asking what should I do and he told them.

 

But it was not something they were do do before he baptized them.

[Gorship]

Avbb does this website explain the theology you are subscribing to?

http://doctrine.org/the-gospel-of-the-kingdom/

Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk

[282Mikado]

There were steps to the gospel of the kingdom and they were like this 1) believe, 2) repent and 3) get baptized in water (no Holy Ghost given yet) for the remission of sins.

 

It will be a hard sell to bring me to believe that Baptism was a requirement “under the Gospel of the Kingdom” as “preached by John the Baptist, Jesus, and the 12 & the 70(72) disciples in the NT” because the whole Bible is all about salvation through faith and faith only.

 

If baptism was a requirement, why did Jesus not tell the twelve to baptize when he sent them out in Matthew 10? He told them to preach, heal, cleanse and cast out devils, but not a word about baptizing.

 

Look at John 11:23-27

 

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

 

Again, not a word that baptism was required, only faith in Jesus.

 

In John 4 where Jesus talks to the woman at the well the end result is:

 

John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
41 And many more believed because of his own word;
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

 

Again, no mention of baptism; only faith, in keeping with the message of the rest of the Bible.

 

We could also turn to the thief on the cross. What saved him ("no Holy Ghost given yet")? Faith only, without baptism.

 

What of all those who may have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, but were unable to get baptized for whatever reason outside their control? Were they doomed?

 

Hebrews 11 informs us the all those living during the OT were saved by faith. The Gospel of Grace tells us all after the cross were saved by faith. Are we to believe that this span of perhaps 5 years or so (I don’t know how long John actually preached) is the only time in Biblical history that requires baptism?

[candlelight]

Why make something so simple into something hard. Baptism is an identifying act that a born again believer does that publically associates them with Christ. It is symbolic of the death, burial, and resurrection of the old man. The more beautiful side of this is illustrated in Jewish marriage customs. When a woman is betrothed (engaged) to a man she goes into a deep pool, completely immerses and washes herself, and puts on new clothes as promise to stay pure until the marriage. When you're saved you accept the offer to be the bride of Christ. How beautiful a picture.

 

Amen, paid4!

[Genevanpreacher]

no, but you are messing with grammatical structure.  It may continue but is was not about them doing it before he baptized them.  It was something in addition to their being baptized because the gospel of the Kingdom was a work based salvation process as was all salvatin under the economy of Law.

 

It is like a question some new believers will ask, "now that I am saved how should I live"?  these were baptized and they were asking what should I do and he told them.

 

But it was not something they were do do before he baptized them.

 

This is where people really mess up on understanding.

We are to hearken to the words of God. Hear to know.

Reading helps our mind to hear and produces knowledge that sticks in it.

 

The subject with this section of Luke says the people came to be baptized, and were not yet.

It is very clear on it's own merit.

[swathdiver]

 

If the law ended with John, then why the need for Christ to fulfill the law? I do believe that more clarification is given for the scripture that you quoted in Matthew...

 

Matthew 11:12-13

12   And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

13   For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

 

God used John to prepare the people for their Messiah who would fulfill what was written in the law, prophets, and psalms concerning him. It wasn't until Jesus' death that the veil in the temple was rent.

 

 

I'm not sure we disagree here.  Are you saying that the dispensation of the law didn't end when those verses say it did or am I missing something?    

[AVBibleBeliever]

This is where people really mess up on understanding.

We are to hearken to the words of God. Hear to know.

Reading helps our mind to hear and produces knowledge that sticks in it.

Now I could have misunderstood if you are speaking about chronological time order. then yes he could have told them what to do before baptizing them. 

 

But the way you worded it an bold the letters you may it look as if he would not baptize them until they did that which he was instructing them.  the latter is an addition to scripture IMO.

[AVBibleBeliever]

If you want to see how God did things in the OT read Chapter three f Jonah.

 

A man of God was sent to preach God Word, the people heard and believed, repented in sackcloth and ashes, God saw their Works and did not destroy them.  If they would have continued in that all the days of their life at the GW judgement they would receive eternal life.

 

What we see here is faith, works and then the grace of God is applied.  In this case God does not destroy the city.  you see it says "God saw their works"  this was the result of their faith/belief in the word of God that was preached. No baptism in water any where that I can see.

 

Jonah 3:1 ¶ And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying,
 2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.
 3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.
 4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
 5 ¶ So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
 6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his rOBe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
 7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nOBles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
 9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
 10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

[282Mikado]

True salvation is contingent upon repentance. If you are not repentant then you do not really believe in God and/or His rightful place in your life. The people of Nineveh accepted Jonah's message and were repentant. The sackcloth and ashes was an outward showing of their repentance, much like baptism is an outward showing of our spiritual death, burial and resurrection. Bottom line. God saw their faith. God saw their true repentance. He saw their heart. The works were a natural manifestation of that heart condition.

 

Consider Isaiah 1. Works mean nothing without faith. Without faith you can not be saved. With faith, the works naturally follow.

[Genevanpreacher]

Now I could have misunderstood if you are speaking about chronological time order. then yes he could have told them what to do before baptizing them. 

 

But the way you worded it an bold the letters you may it look as if he would not baptize them until they did that which he was instructing them.  the latter is an addition to scripture IMO.

 

The 'layout' of the text of Luke 3 is the ultimate revealing of the same facts in the other Gospels.

And if you compare them to Luke 3, they make more sense.

 

Luke had a more detailed account of John's baptism.

Luke explains John's ministry clearer, and does not state that he baptized until after he preached these things to the people (verse 21).

 

In verse 3 it only says he preached of the baptism, not performed it.

Then he warned the people to bring proof (fruits) of their repentance to show they had truly repented, that was the part they were 'confessing' in the other gospels.

And he said this so they would not consider the fact that they were 'children' of Abraham, when it came to being 'worthy' of the baptism.

 

Then he details what the Lord was going to do, eventually. (verses 8,9)

 

After being warned they then asked him what they should do, implying here, basing my comment on the proof of the text,

they were concerned on 'how' they would 'bring forth fruit', so they could be properly baptized.

 

Then the publicans and soldiers followed suit.

 

Then he 'preached unto them Jesus', yes not by name as yet, but that's why he was here, to lead people to Jesus. (verses 16, 17)

 

In verse 18 says he then took 'to preachin' the message God had, for them to believe 'enough' to repent/change their ways.

 

Luke does not even mention the 'act' of baptizing, only mentioning that 'and it came to pass' that the people, and Jesus were. (verse 21 again)

[No Nicolaitans]

I'm not sure we disagree here.  Are you saying that the dispensation of the law didn't end when those verses say it did or am I missing something?    

 

Hey swath! My understanding is this...

 

John's ministry didn't end the law and usher in the new testament; rather, his ministry was a bridge between the testaments to prepare the people for their Messias who would usher in the new testament by his blood. 

 

John said this about himself and his ministry...

 

John 1:25-31

25   And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

26   John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

27   He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

28   These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

29   The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

30   This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

31   And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

 

The Lord said this about himself...

 

Matthew 26:27-28

27   And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28   For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

 

The Bible says this concerning the new testament...

 

Hebrews 9:15-17

15   And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16   For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17   For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

2 Corinthians 3:14

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

 

Hebrews 10:16-22

16   This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17   And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18   Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19   Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20   By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21   And having an high priest over the house of God;

22   Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

 

Hebrews 12:24

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

Those are just a few verses that tell me that the New Testament began with Christ's blood and death. Yes, the law and prophets were until John...but John was the final prophet before the revealing of Christ.

 

Matthew 11:9-13

9   But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.

10   For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

11   Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

12   And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

13   For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

 

John was a prophet, but he was more than a prophet. While he was a prophet, his calling surpassed the prophets and the law before him, because where they foretold and pointed to the future coming of Christ, John was the one who would actually reveal Israel's Messias.

 

The Old Testament was confirmed before the New Testament could take place...

 

Galatians 3:17

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

 

John, while a great man, couldn't confirm the old covenant with his blood since he was a sinner.  Only Christ could do that. Whereas the Old Testament was dedicated with blood; the New Testament had to be dedicated with blood likewise...and only Christ's blood could do that.

[candlelight]

 

Hey swath! My understanding is this...

 

John's ministry didn't end the law and usher in the new testament; rather, his ministry was a bridge between the testaments to prepare the people for their Messias who would usher in the new testament by his blood. 

 

John said this about himself and his ministry...

 

John 1:25-31

25   And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

26   John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

27   He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

28   These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

29   The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

30   This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

31   And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

 

The Lord said this about himself...

 

Matthew 26:27-28

27   And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28   For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

 

The Bible says this concerning the new testament...

 

Hebrews 9:15-17

15   And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16   For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17   For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

2 Corinthians 3:14

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

 

Hebrews 10:16-22

16   This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17   And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18   Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19   Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20   By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21   And having an high priest over the house of God;

22   Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

 

Hebrews 12:24

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

Those are just a few verses that tell me that the New Testament began with Christ's blood and death. Yes, the law and prophets were until John...but John was the final prophet before the revealing of Christ.

 

Matthew 11:9-13

9   But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.

10   For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

11   Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

12   And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

13   For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

 

John was a prophet, but he was more than a prophet. While he was a prophet, his calling surpassed the prophets and the law before him, because where they foretold and pointed to the future coming of Christ, John was the one who would actually reveal Israel's Messias.

 

The Old Testament was confirmed before the New Testament could take place...

 

Galatians 3:17

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

 

John, while a great man, couldn't confirm the old covenant with his blood since he was a sinner.  Only Christ could do that. Whereas the Old Testament was dedicated with blood; the New Testament had to be dedicated with blood likewise...and only Christ's blood could do that.

 

 

 NN!  Well said, brother.

[AVBibleBeliever]

Faith, Works and God Grace have always been and always will be part of man's Salvation in every dispensation.  But how those three applied or worked out during those Economies, Time Periods or Ages were and are different.  Here are three divisions of dispensations and how Faith, Works and God's Grace were applied or worked out.

 

Pre-law, OT Law and preparation of Israel for the Kingdom (Genesis-Acts 7)

Faith + Works +God's Grace

From the OT to Acts 7 Men would believe the word of God preached to them and by faith they accepted that word repented and did what was required for the rest of their days of their life, this would later (upon Christ's finished work on the cross) get their name in the book of life, then at the judgement they would received the grace of God and are given eternal life.  But this does not mean God did not bless that man before his death because of his faith.  the fact that God still destroyed Nenivah(SP?) means the people did not continue in their repentance toward God.  But some of those Gentile men of Nenivah will be in heaven.

 

The Current Church Age (Acts 12-Philemon)

Faith + God's Grace = Works

From Acts 13 to the Gathering of the Church into the clouds to Jesus, men hear the word of God preached to them, then through their faith in that word (particularly that Christ Died for their sin debt) they received the Grace of God.  They are filled with the Holy Ghost and made part of Christ's body.  After words they begin, by God's help through His Holy Ghost, repenting of sin and doing good works.  There is no need for their names be written in the book of life (though they could be) because they are part of Christ's body and all judgement was taken care of on the Cross.  At the Gathering they will be judge for the things done while they were part of Christ's body and given reward for that which was good and no reward for that which was bad. Romans, 1Cor, 1Thess 4, 1 Timothy etc. . .

 

Tribulation until Christ's return to set up the Kingdom (Hebrews-Revelation 19)

Faith+Works=God's Grace

Once the Great tribulation starts men will hear the word of God, believe it in faith, do works like follow the law, overcome, endure to the end of the tribulation when Christ returns to set up the kingdom, help the Jews and if they were a Gentile they would get judged at the GWT and because their names would be written in the book of life (Rev 20) they would get the right to enter the New Jerusalem and eat of the tree of life and have eternal life (Rev 21).

 

Millennial Kingdom and after words for any natural man born after the new earth and heavens (Revelation 20-22)

Faith+works+God's Grace

While in the Millennial Kingdom men may see Christ on the throne their faith will be more on God's word than on Christ's work of the cross (though that will be known).  During the millennial Gentile nations will need to come to Jerusalem by faith in God's word for them to do so, present their gifts, OBlations and sacrifices (not for sin but as an act of worship) in doing so their nations will be blessed with rain and no disease.  If they don't do it they will not get rain and there will be diseases.  Those among those nations who keep to God's word to come with a heart of true worship and not of requirement will have their names in the book of life and their good works recorded. At the GWT judgement they will be judged and will be allowed to enter the New Jerusalem, drink of the river of life, eat from the tree of life, and get eternal life. Zac 14, Rev 20, 21

 

Faith, Works and Grace are God formula for salvation only during the Church Age can a man get God's grace by faith alone without the works of the Law, or of Baptism or Repentance.

[Genevanpreacher]

Faith, Works and God Grace have always been and always will be part of man's Salvation in every dispensation.  But how those three applied or worked out during those Economies, Time Periods or Ages were and are different.  Here are three divisions of dispensations and how Faith, Works and God's Grace were applied or worked out.

 

Pre-law, OT Law and preparation of Israel for the Kingdom (Genesis-Acts 7)

Faith + Works +God's Grace

From the OT to Acts 7 Men would believe the word of God preached to them and by faith they accepted that word repented and did what was required for the rest of their days of their life, this would later (upon Christ's finished work on the cross) get their name in the book of life, then at the judgement they would received the grace of God and are given eternal life.  But this does not mean God did not bless that man before his death because of his faith.  the fact that God still destroyed Nenivah(SP?) means the people did not continue in their repentance toward God.  But some of those Gentile men of Nenivah will be in heaven.

 

The Current Church Age (Acts 12-Philemon)

Faith + God's Grace = Works

From Acts 13 to the Gathering of the Church into the clouds to Jesus, men hear the word of God preached to them, then through their faith in that word (particularly that Christ Died for their sin debt) they received the Grace of God.  They are filled with the Holy Ghost and made part of Christ's body.  After words they begin, by God's help through His Holy Ghost, repenting of sin and doing good works.  There is no need for their names be written in the book of life (though they could be) because they are part of Christ's body and all judgement was taken care of on the Cross.  At the Gathering they will be judge for the things done while they were part of Christ's body and given reward for that which was good and no reward for that which was bad. Romans, 1Cor, 1Thess 4, 1 Timothy etc. . .

 

Tribulation until Christ's return to set up the Kingdom (Hebrews-Revelation 19)

Faith+Works=God's Grace

Once the Great tribulation starts men will hear the word of God, believe it in faith, do works like follow the law, overcome, endure to the end of the tribulation when Christ returns to set up the kingdom, help the Jews and if they were a Gentile they would get judged at the GWT and because their names would be written in the book of life (Rev 20) they would get the right to enter the New Jerusalem and eat of the tree of life and have eternal life (Rev 21).

 

Millennial Kingdom and after words for any natural man born after the new earth and heavens (Revelation 20-22)

Faith+works+God's Grace

While in the Millennial Kingdom men may see Christ on the throne their faith will be more on God's word than on Christ's work of the cross (though that will be known).  During the millennial Gentile nations will need to come to Jerusalem by faith in God's word for them to do so, present their gifts, OBlations and sacrifices (not for sin but as an act of worship) in doing so their nations will be blessed with rain and no disease.  If they don't do it they will not get rain and there will be diseases.  Those among those nations who keep to God's word to come with a heart of true worship and not of requirement will have their names in the book of life and their good works recorded. At the GWT judgement they will be judged and will be allowed to enter the New Jerusalem, drink of the river of life, eat from the tree of life, and get eternal life. Zac 14, Rev 20, 21

 

Faith, Works and Grace are God formula for salvation only during the Church Age can a man get God's grace by faith alone without the works of the Law, or of Baptism or Repentance.

 

Wow! I have never heard such stuff in my life, written like you believe.

Where did you learn this?

 

Were you taught this in schooling, or Church? Or did you read some material that got you interested in it, and you checked it out yourself?

I am really curious.

 

This site is the first place I have come across this info. I am reading Larkins book, piecemeal right now.

Have you read his book?

I am not a 'Dispensation' kinda guy, just learning a little about the 'facts'. I haven't read anything in his book I can see in scripture.

 

Yet.

[AVBibleBeliever]

Wow! I have never heard such stuff in my life, written like you believe.

Where did you learn this?

 

Were you taught this in schooling, or Church? Or did you read some material that got you interested in it, and you checked it out yourself?

I am really curious.

 

This site is the first place I have come across this info. I am reading Larkins book, piecemeal right now.

Have you read his book?

I am not a 'Dispensation' kinda guy, just learning a little about the 'facts'. I haven't read anything in his book I can see in scripture.

 

Yet.

I simply OBserve the text and believe what I read literally unless it can't be.

 

I make OBservation on what takes place with men and God, in each instance from Genesis to Revelation when God dispenses his grace and how he did it and why and to whom and when and where.

 

Look and Jonah 3 the OBservation of the text shows it clearly..  God's word spoken, men believed or had faith, did the works, god saw their works and repented of his desire to destroy them.  Faith+Works=God's Grace

 

Today Belief or Faith in Christ work on the cross, get's a man God's Grace (Eph 2:8and 9), you are given the Holy Ghost as part of that Grace and made part of the Body of Christ, you study God's word (a work required of you but not necessary for salvation) god's word convicts you of sin, you repent of that and correct your life (works).  Faith+God's Grace=Works

 

Am I wrong in the above OBservation?

 

Yes I have Larkin's book and have read it through on a few occasions