Children And Salvation

[Covenanter]

Michael came to be picked up, & was very soon asleep in my arms. xxxxxxxxxx

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God must what?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Sorry for your loss, Covenanter. Shall not the judge of all the Earth do right?

As I have said before, I believe God reveals Himself to those infants that He knows will die. Somehow, that infant is given enough to know. Whether that one goes to Heaven or no is solely based on trust. Our children cannot ride in on our coattails. They must make that decision for themselves.

I believe God is no respector of persons. He revealed Himself to John while John was still in the womb. I believe He reveals Himself to all infants.

[John81]

A question one might want to consider is whether you believe everyones eternal form and life will be that which they died with. In other words, will every 1 year old who died remain a 1 year old physically and mentally for eternity; and will every 100 year old who dies be a hundred year old physically and mentally for eternity?

 

While I don't know what proof they think they find in Scripture, I've heard many preachers say that everyone will have an eternal body comparable to a 30-33 year old healthy person.

 

If resurrection bodies are transformed into something along the lines of a 30 year old, that would mean there could be no children in heaven or hell.

 

Anyway, just something to think over as we consider just how far out of our understanding so much of this is. We are called to have full faith and trust in God, that He will do what is right with regards to everyone, even if we can't fathom it all at this time. Remember, God never explained Himself to Job but Job came to the point of realizing God is indeed Almighty, Perfect and worthy of full faith and trust.

[wretched]

Allot of speculation over a good and unanswerable question. You have to use your own judgment to determine where you stand because their is no stand-alone Scripture to confirm or deny. In other words, pray and learn from the Word. Not mens books, writing and internet research. 

 

Just like the premillennial Return

Just like predestination

Just like gifts/signs/miracles

 

The Scriptural weight of evidence overwhelmingly support the saving, innocent faith of children. Christ own example at the age of 12 demonstrates the age when children become aware and accountable to God.

 

The dangerous part is I fear our churches are full of tares whom are religious and follow the rules of our IFB and other churches. Tares because they were convinced they are saved based on early children professions. The majority of our church memberships are made up of these second/third generation tares. They were safe at that age but not saved, their childlike faith is true faith in God as Jesus has explained repeatedly. Sadly they have been convinced that was their regeneration and it was not now that they are of age and adults. They are the tares Jesus spoke of. Oh, they look and act the part around other members and do all the right outward things but never born again.

 

Many wonder how come they go to church and participate but live neck deep in the world...duh.

 

We are to lead them and sow the seeds of the Gospel and not forbid them but I don't agree with the pushing of sinner's prayers and convincing them they born again, etc..

[TheSword]

He that believeth not is condemned already.

Question: if one was not condemned until one was given the opportunity to trust Christ, and instead o rejected him, why the command to the Apostles to go into all the world making Disciples? Why not just leave them in this "alleged" uncondemned state?

Sorry, but man is condemned from the moment he takes his first breath in this world. (Unless somehow Christ is revealed to him as a fetus as was revealed to John the Baptist)

 

I think you missed the point of what we were saying. We're not saying that anyone who hasn't heard of Jesus and the Gospel isn't condemned; they certainly are like you said and I made this clear in an earlier post when I talked about why this line of reasoning doesn't apply to unreached adults. Rather what we're pointing out is that the ability to believe necessarily requires the ability to understand what is to be believed. Clearly an infant cannot really believe in anything and they likewise cannot be said to "believe not."

[heartstrings]

SFIC,

I showed you Bible evidence in a previous post, brother.

Here's another verse I forgot.

 

Romans 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

 

Babies are innocent because they have done no evil.

They cannot come to Christ because they do not have the mental capacity for reasoning.as in "come let us reason together saith the Lord"........."though your sins be as scarlet....." again, they have done no sins,,,,yet. And as I already showed you, where Paul said he was "alive without the law once" and then "died", likewise any and every a child "dies" spiritually when they willfully sin the very first time. That could come at variable ages. This all reminds me about arguing over whether the Bible condemns abortion. No, there is no verse in the Bible which states ":thou shalt not commit abortion", but the principles of that, too, are there plain as day which anyone with "natural affection" should be able to discern.

[John81]

You do realize that verse is another proof text for "Calvinist" predestination, right?

 

Don't forget, Scripture points out that God loved Jacob but hated Esau before either had been born or done anything good or bad.

[heartstrings]

That verse has nothing to do with Esau's salvation. Calvinists can make out of it whatever they.......will......

[John81]

I'm just finding it rather ironic how many verses being cited to prove a point here are the exact same verses used in similar (or even the same) ways by "Calvinists" to prove their point.

[Bro K]

"Many assume that the child was still and infant, but the Bible does not say. If it were an infant, how would David know it was in heaven, seeing there is no record of David ever having visited heaven as Paul did many centuries later?"

 

Does one need to go to heaven and physically see another person before having assurance that that person was actually there??? If so; lets just throw the doctrine of faith out the door!

 

FWIW: Those who taken the chore of dating the events/books/etc of the Bible have the birth and death of David's son occurring within a max of three years.

[heartstrings]

I'm just finding it rather ironic how many verses being cited to prove a point here are the exact same verses used in similar (or even the same) ways by "Calvinists" to prove their point.

Really?

 

I made reference to some verses here........

#1 Matthew 1:2 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

What are we saved from? Sins. How can you "save" a baby, who has never sinned, from their sins?

 

#2 Paul said that he was "alive without the law once" then he goes on to say that he "died". I personally believe that a person becomes DEAD in trespasses and sins when they willfully and knowingly sin for the first time.

 

#3 David said he would go to his dead son.......and David, as you recall,stated "I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever".,..so that's where David believed he was going when he died and also where his infant son went; the house of the Lord...and I believe it too.

 

#4 Jesus said in Heaven the angels of little children "behold the face of my Father". Whatever that means I don't know but it sounds very comforting to me.....

 

#5 Jesus said that none of us can get saved.....if we don't come "as a little child". How does a child come? By fully trusting in innocence. 

 

And I did not use Romans 8:11 in the same way as a Calvinist. If you think so, you are mistaken.

[GraceSaved]

Poor Kindofblue is probably more confused now than ever. 

[John81]

2 Corinthians

 

⁵ But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.

⁶ Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.

⁷ So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.

⁸ Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.

⁹ For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.

¹⁰ To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

¹¹ Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

¹² Furthermore, when I came to Troas to preach Christ's gospel, and a door was opened unto me of the Lord,