Christ In The Old Testament

[DaveW]

Can't find the recent thread where it was mentioned, but there was some chat about Old testament saints not trusting Christ.

I wonder what people think about thus passage in relation to that subject?

Hebrews 11
 24  By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

 25  Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

 26  Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

By the direction of the Holy Spirit, the writer of Hebrews says that Moses chose the reproach of Christ.
Now unless there is some other explanation, it seems to me that Moses was looking forward to the Christ coming and this was his motivation for refusing sin.

[Calvary]

"Esteeming the reproach of Christ..." vs. 26

One should notice that this is a case like Abraham, "seeing Christ´s day" (John 8:56). The writer is not saying Moses was suffering because he was telling people about Christ, or personally believing on Christ,  he is simply saying that the same kind of reproaches that fell on Christ (John 2:17  And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.; Psalms 69:9, For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.), fell on Moses for doing right.

"The recompense of the reward" was a reward for doing right and not enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season. Moses esteemed that any reproach that he would take for doing right was better than any payment, which is exactly how the Apostles figured the matter after they "suffered shame for His name" (Acts 5:41)

 

Moses could enjoy sin or he could suffer, he chose "rather to suffer affliction with the people of God" (Hmmm, no "sons of God " there, only people of God - lol)

 

For he endured as seeing HIM WHO IS INVISIBLE.... That is the key to it all. That is his real motivation.

 

Reading New Testament doctrine back into the Old Testament will always lead one to a wrong conclusion. It will have born again believers where there are none, it will have men looking forward to the cross who didn´t see any cross anywhere. It will have the Holy Spirit indwelling men when He did not. Always be very careful of taking New Testament facts and placing them over Old Testament saints. Most of the time it will lead one to error.

 

God bless,

calvary


 

[ASongOfDegrees]

Can't find the recent thread where it was mentioned, but there was some chat about Old testament saints not trusting Christ.

I wonder what people think about thus passage in relation to that subject?

Hebrews 11
 24  By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

 25  Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

 26  Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

By the direction of the Holy Spirit, the writer of Hebrews says that Moses chose the reproach of Christ.
Now unless there is some other explanation, it seems to me that Moses was looking forward to the Christ coming and this was his motivation for refusing sin.

The author of Hebrews is looking back at the OT with a new revelation in hand. It's a case of applying new truths retroactively. He's making a spiritual application like many preachers do today with the OT.

 

You have to place yourself in Moses' sandals. He did not have a NT like we have. He really didn't even have an OT. Not one he carried around in his pocket. He may have had some inkling of the Redeemer who would stand upon the earth at the latter day (Job 19:25) or the Prophet who would come after him (Deut. 18:15-19) but no way did he understand what it was to be born again or place his faith in the efficacious blood of Jesus Christ (I Cor. 2:9-10). This was a truth hid until after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And even then it took a revelation specifically given to Paul to really clear things up (II Peter 3:15,16). These truths were reserved to be revealed unto us who have been born again, united with Christ and sealed with the Spirit of God. Not even the apostles prior to the cross understood what we do now and they lived 24/7 in the physical presence of Jesus Christ (Luke 18:31-34). 

 

 

 

I Peter 1:9-12

 

[9] Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
[10] Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
[11] Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
[12] Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

 

Ephesian 3:8-11

 

[8] Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

[9] And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
[10] To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
[11] According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

 

I Corinthians 2:8

 

[8] Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

 

 

The prophets nor even the rulers of this world (those in the physically and spiritually realm, i.e. Satan) nor even the angels of heaven fully understood the plan and purpose of God in the OT. They had to wait until God revealed it to us. 

 

 

Romans 16:25,26

 

[25] Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

[26] But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

 

 

These truths should make us humble and thankful because it was to us (the church of God) that God chose to reveal these things to and that we live in a good age to live in. Some call it the age of grace. Although grace has been in every dispensation, not to the extent it is now.

 

I guess this is one reason why Jesus said that those who are the least in the kingdom of God are greater than the greatest prophet of the OT (Luke 7:28).

[Moved_On]

Can't find the recent thread where it was mentioned, but there was some chat about Old testament saints not trusting Christ.

I wonder what people think about thus passage in relation to that subject?

Hebrews 11
 24  By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

 25  Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

 26  Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

By the direction of the Holy Spirit, the writer of Hebrews says that Moses chose the reproach of Christ.
Now unless there is some other explanation, it seems to me that Moses was looking forward to the Christ coming and this was his motivation for refusing sin.

 

I usually avoid this subject because it has led to endless debate.

 

I have a friend trained at PBI (Ruckman). He believes (among other things) that OT Jews were saved by works. We’ve talked about it many times since he feels it’s his duty to straighten me out on this matter. He believes most IFB are apostate and their teachings will cause immeasurable damage to the souls of men during a future dispensation.

 

One time he was really scolding me over this topic. He’d repeat the same scriptures at me he learned in college over and over to justify his position. I likewise used scripture to demonstrate that nobody’s works of righteousness has ever earned them a place in heaven. He’d quip back with another scripture. Finally I told him that he should be grateful he didn’t live in the OT times because he would have never made it into heaven. There was a rare moment of silence at that point and he’s never brought it up since.

 

I didn’t share this story to debate the topic. I know what I believe and I know what they believe.

 

[ASongOfDegrees]

I usually avoid this subject because it has led to endless debate.

 

I have a friend trained at PBI (Ruckman). He believes (among other things) that OT Jews were saved by works. We’ve talked about it many times since he feels it’s his duty to straighten me out on this matter. He believes most IFB are apostate and their teachings will cause immeasurable damage to the souls of men during a future dispensation.

 

One time he was really scolding me over this topic. He’d repeat the same scriptures at me he learned in college over and over to justify his position. I likewise used scripture to demonstrate that nobody’s works of righteousness has ever earned them a place in heaven. He’d quip back with another scripture. Finally I told him that he should be grateful he didn’t live in the OT times because he would have never made it into heaven. There was a rare moment of silence at that point and he’s never brought it up since.

 

I didn’t share this story to debate the topic. I know what I believe and I know what they believe.

And on the flip side I've been severely scolded, misrepresented and even ostracized by IFBs who believe you were born again in the OT like we are today. Indeed, even after I wasn't the one who brought the issue up.

[beameup]

I usually avoid this subject because it has led to endless debate.

 

I have a friend trained at PBI (Ruckman). He believes (among other things) that OT Jews were saved by works. We’ve talked about it many times since he feels it’s his duty to straighten me out on this matter. He believes most IFB are apostate and their teachings will cause immeasurable damage to the souls of men during a future dispensation.

 

 They spend an awful lot of time trying to find fault in anyone's ministry that doesn't agree 100% with their "theology" and KJVO position.  There is no agape love.

[No Nicolaitans]

Old Testament believers were saved by faith...just as we are today.  Works have never (and will never) play a part in saving anyone.  The promise given to Israel for keeping the law was that they would be blessed in the land...God would bless their crops, their herds, they'd dwell safely, etc.  God never told them that they would be saved for keeping the law.

 

Jesus Christ said these words BEFORE his death, burial, and resurrection...

 

John 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

No man...means...no man.  No one makes it to the Father without Jesus Christ.  As we know, those from the Old Testament (who were saved) were kept in Abraham's Bosom until Christ went and preached unto them.  After that, those people went to heaven.

 

I don't understand it all, because the Bible doesn't make it clear; however, one thing is certain...Old Testament believers went to heaven because of Jesus Christ.

[swathdiver]

Christ is in every book of the Bible, some of them many times in the OT.  Salvation is through making repentance towards God and putting one's faith in Jesus Christ (Messiah).

[Moved_On]

And on the flip side I've been severely scolded, misrepresented and even ostracized by IFBs who believe you were born again in the OT like we are today. Indeed, even after I wasn't the one who brought the issue up.

 

I'm not for any of that. I’ve had this discussion more than once and honestly from what I’ve seen, the aggression has come from those that believe works of righteousness redeemed OT Jews.

I love my friend and we’ve had good times preaching at the mission and singing God’s songs, but he’s harsh of spirit when it comes to certain doctrinal matters. While some from there are more gentle, I’ve seen this trait in folks trained at PBI in more than one instance. I could say much here.

[Moved_On]

 

Old Testament believers were saved by faith...just as we are today.  Works have never (and will never) play a part in saving anyone.  The promise given to Israel for keeping the law was that they would be blessed in the land...God would bless their crops, their herds, they'd dwell safely, etc.  God never told them that they would be saved for keeping the law.

 

Jesus Christ said these words BEFORE his death, burial, and resurrection...

 

John 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

No man...means...no man.  No one makes it to the Father without Jesus Christ.  As we know, those from the Old Testament (who were saved) were kept in Abraham's Bosom until Christ went and preached unto them.  After that, those people went to heaven.

 

I don't understand it all, because the Bible doesn't make it clear; however, one thing is certain...Old Testament believers went to heaven because of Jesus Christ.

 

 

Nothing makes me feel like shouting more than John 14:6. That verse will PREACH!
 

[beameup]

The LORD revealed specifics of His plan gradually.  He focused on Abraham and Abraham "acted out" God's plan by offering up his "only" son (he really had 2 sons at the time).

Each time the LORD revealed more specific elements of his plan, Satan attempted to thwart it (which indicates that Satan didn't have the "complete plan" ahead of its revelation).

The first attempt of Satan to prohibit God's plan of salvation for human beings, was to completely corrupt the human genome (as explained in Genesis 6).

[swathdiver]

A picture of Christ is in Genesis 3, twice.

[No Nicolaitans]

Nothing makes me feel like shouting more than John 14:6. That verse will PREACH!
 

 

AMEN! That one verse covers a lot of ground...

 

Do you think your good works will get you to heaven? No man cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME!!!

 

Do you think your religion will get you to heaven? No man cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME!!!

 

Do you think that after you're saved, you have to keep yourself saved by living righteously and without sin? No man cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME!!!

 

Okay...I'll stop now.

[JerryNumbers]

 

Can't find the recent thread where it was mentioned, but there was some chat about Old testament saints not trusting Christ.

I wonder what people think about thus passage in relation to that subject?

Hebrews 11
 24  By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

 25  Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

 26  Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

By the direction of the Holy Spirit, the writer of Hebrews says that Moses chose the reproach of Christ.
Now unless there is some other explanation, it seems to me that Moses was looking forward to the Christ coming and this was his motivation for refusing sin.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jude 1:15 ¶ To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

 

And even Enoch preached Christ & His coming. Yet many will deny it claiming the Old Testament Saints were saved by works! when its a Bible fact that no one can be saved by works.

 

[Covenanter]

 

Calvary:

Reading New Testament doctrine back into the Old Testament will always lead one to a wrong conclusion. It will have born again believers where there are none, it will have men looking forward to the cross who didn´t see any cross anywhere. It will have the Holy Spirit indwelling men when He did not. Always be very careful of taking New Testament facts and placing them over Old Testament saints. Most of the time it will lead one to error.

NN:

Old Testament believers were saved by faith...just as we are today.  Works have never (and will never) play a part in saving anyone.  The promise given to Israel for keeping the law was that they would be blessed in the land...God would bless their crops, their herds, they'd dwell safely, etc.  God never told them that they would be saved for keeping the law.

Two very contrasting views. Jesus would undoubtedly approve of NoNic over Calvary.

 

Luke 24:²⁵ Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

²⁶ Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

²⁷ And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

²⁸ And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.

²⁹ But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.

³⁰ And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.

³¹ And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

³² And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

 

We see the cross in Genesis 3, and in EVERY old covenant sacrifice. We see the cross in the Passover Lamb, and the sprinkled blood. The old covenant saints may not have understood the Christ-centred atonement, but they knew they were sinners, and knew their need of a blood sacrifice to ratify the covenant.

 

The Apostles in their preaching & writing showed clearly how the Scriptures taught Christ and his church, and the fulfilment in Christ of the promises to Abraham.