Paycheck for fulltime worker? Is it Biblical?

[Guest]

Where was the faith in this picture? Certainly not in God.

I was wondering myself, the only picture I saw was in your avatar. I can only hope that it is not really you.

[John81]

I'm sorry John, I didn't mean to suggest that you distrust pastors. I believe you do in fact honor the Lord as you sacrificially support missions and your church. I was agreeing with you.

God bless,
calvary

It's good to be in agreement!

[John81]

What a lot of people stateside overlook is that MANY countries have the policy that we should have ---- if you're not a citizen (native or naturalized) of our country, you can't get a job here, PERIOD -- so don't even try, unless you want trouble!

A lot of countries also won't let you in for extended periods (more than a 3 month tourist visa) without proof of financial substantiation (American, "I have no source of income except God". Agent determining visa approval, "Sorry, you're not getting into our country.")

That's true and part of the reason many have worked to bring about native missionaries in many countries.

[John81]

per the topic of pastors: Many good pastors exist; unfortunately there is a huge trend of seeking a "starter church", move up, build resume', climb higher, build retirement.

That sounds exactly like what our pastor has pointed out a few times.

Much of this comes not only from selfish and greedy sinful nature, but also from wayward seminaries with ungrounded or even unsaved professors teaching the ways of the world more than the ways of God.

[2Tim215]

How about the other side of the picture. I have approached many "missionary" organizations in the past and because I don't go to a church as the closest IFB church that I trust is over 950 kms away and they only have 20-30 people on a good Sunday, I am not an "acceptable" candidate for missions work. I have been to most of the churches here in my town and their doctrine is so far off I usually end up walking out during the service.I do not have a trust fund, I do not believe in asking for money and God hasn't supplied as yet so I have stopped trying. Many a young man has been called and short of God Himself depositing money into their bank account are unable to afford to study or enter the ministry. Many churches these days I find are tight fisted with their funds and will usually only assist those who have been involved in the church for some time. You can't really blame them though as many have abused the trust placed in them over the years.

I agree that SFIC is a bit strong in his view concerning "deputation" and "begging" for assistance, but is he wrong concerning the faith issue? Not in my opinion. Too many pastors, missionaries and others doing church work are in it for the wrong reasons and are not called and shouldn't be doing it. They cause more harm than good. So if God doesn't provide then you can be sure that you shouldn't be there because if He has called you He WILL make a way. He didn't make a way for me so I have to believe that my "calling" was my desire and not His will for me. This is just my opinion from my own personal experience. So without some form of making it known that God has called a young man into the ministry how else are they to proceed?

[LindaR]

I was wondering myself, the only picture I saw was in your avatar. I can only hope that it is not really you.

Whose picture did you think it was? That was a very un Christ-like remark and uncalled for.

[Pastor Matt]

Let's keep the personal attacks out of this thread. Stick to doctrine and keeps looks out of the conversation.

[JerryNumbers]

I agree in part. One thing that gets me, I know of one missionary, he has been in Africa for many years, & has never got a self-supporting church started. Although he has, according to his reports, started many churches. He just keeps needing more money to keep the churches going. What have you done if you cannot start a mission church, if it is never self supporting.


The word Deputation throws me for a loop. I find nothing in the Bible that seems to back this word up.

I've read newsletter from other churches, & it speaking about the missions they've started right here in this country. And they spoke that they have from 30 to 100 or more members, yet they cannot support their self. The founding church is still paying the pastor, & supporting.

There are lots of missionaries sent out, yet many of them are being sent by local churches that do not even know how to teach their own members to how to be saved. How can they found a local church helping it getting started, if they cannot teach people how to be saved? All they do is teach people to have a false hope, & those who gain a false hope are much more difficult to win to Christ than one that has no hope.

A very good example of sending out missionaries.

Ac 13:1 ¶ Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
Ac 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
Ac 13:3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
Ac 13:4 ¶ So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

Although few there be that seem to be sent in that manner. Most make a tour throughout the country trying to gain money from most any local church no matter its name or its beliefs.

Where is the faith if you have a pocket full of money?

[1Timothy115]

Whose picture did you think it was? That was a very un Christ-like remark and uncalled for.

Yes, it was very poor choice of words. It wasn't pointed toward his actual appearance, rather that SFIC wasn't exhibiting the very trait that he decried God's man of not having. The comment "I can only hope that it is not really you." was in fact a plea and a prayer that SFIC isn't really anything like the attitude he has displayed toward missionaries.

I will guard my tongue and my keyboard more closely. Thank God I have a forgiving Savior and a Holy Spirit to convict me of inappropriate communication. I apologize to any or all who were offended and especially to SFIC.

[Steve Schwenke]

Calvary - excellent posts. I had never seen that about "brought forward" before. Thanks for the information!
As far as "pockets full of money," Modern missions has gone the way of Laodicea. Many KJV Mission boards demand savings accounts, retirement accounts, and all kinds of extras that make the monthly support enormous - more than many average American salaries, particularly in our kinds of churches. They own houses, retirement houses, etc. The pendulum has swung too far this way.
However, I know several good, quality, God-called missionaries who go under-supported, and own nothing. They own nothing because they know God called them to a different country, and they plan on Dieing there! God never calls a preacher to "retire." It is for life!
So unfortunately, missions has become more about connections, networking, and a career than it is about actual missions. That is a shame.
But that does not mean that deputation itself is a "lack of faith." It just means that a lot of fakirs are abusing a good thing to their own destruction. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater!
If anyone thinks deputation is a "lack of faith," then here is my advice:
1. Quit your job
2. Start calling every pastor you know and ask for a meeting to present your calling
3. then start travelling to all of these churches, not having any income, and not knowing if you will get an offering at the next meeting, or if that offering will be enough to pay for all of the expenses you incur to get there
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 until you have enough support coming in to go and live in a foreign country, and minister to those people....

Lack of faith? Not so! it is ALL faith, until they get greedy and start asking for more than they NEED.

In Christ,

[Pastor Matt]

Yes, it was very poor choice of words. It wasn't pointed toward his actual appearance, rather that SFIC wasn't exhibiting the very trait that he decried God's man of not having. The comment "I can only hope that it is not really you." was in fact a plea and a prayer that SFIC isn't really anything like the attitude he has displayed toward missionaries.

I will guard my tongue and my keyboard more closely. Thank God I have a forgiving Savior and a Holy Spirit to convict me of inappropriate communication. I apologize to any or all who were offended and especially to SFIC.

Thank you very much for the explanation.

[Steve Schwenke]

How about the other side of the picture. I have approached many "missionary" organizations in the past and because I don't go to a church as the closest IFB church that I trust is over 950 kms away and they only have 20-30 people on a good Sunday, I am not an "acceptable" candidate for missions work. I have been to most of the churches here in my town and their doctrine is so far off I usually end up walking out during the service.I do not have a trust fund, I do not believe in asking for money and God hasn't supplied as yet so I have stopped trying. Many a young man has been called and short of God Himself depositing money into their bank account are unable to afford to study or enter the ministry. Many churches these days I find are tight fisted with their funds and will usually only assist those who have been involved in the church for some time. You can't really blame them though as many have abused the trust placed in them over the years.

I agree that SFIC is a bit strong in his view concerning "deputation" and "begging" for assistance, but is he wrong concerning the faith issue? Not in my opinion. Too many pastors, missionaries and others doing church work are in it for the wrong reasons and are not called and shouldn't be doing it. They cause more harm than good. So if God doesn't provide then you can be sure that you shouldn't be there because if He has called you He WILL make a way. He didn't make a way for me so I have to believe that my "calling" was my desire and not His will for me. This is just my opinion from my own personal experience. So without some form of making it known that God has called a young man into the ministry how else are they to proceed?

Brother, if God has called you, you will know it as sure as your salvation.
If God has called you, then my suggestion is as follows:
Pack up and move to an area where there is a really good Bible-Believing church where you can grow and learn. And then see if doors don't begin to open.
We are living in the days of Amos 8:11-12. If there is not a good church near you now, the chances of one starting are very slim. But if you leave, God may send someone in there to start one.

I am sure you can list many reasons why it would be impossible for you to move, but I believe the local church is what God ordained for us to support in this age, and it therefore is our DUTY to find one and be a part of it - regardless of loss, situation, etc. And don't worry - I would not give you this advice if I have not already done so.....tough choices, but Christ always comes first - ahead of money, jobs, family, extended family, mom, dad, brothers, sisters, friends, etc.

I am sure that if you follow this advice, God's will for your life will become more clear through the preaching and teaching of the Bible, and through actively participating in the ministries of the church.

My purpose here is not to be mean or cold-hearted, but rather to help.

In Christ,

[Calvary]

The word deputation does not exist in the Bible, therefore it must be un biblical and therefore it must also demonstrate a lack of faith.

2 completely unBiblical conclusions to a fabricated crisis.

Again, lets look at the principles involved.

Does God desire the gospel to go to the unreached?

Does God call men (and women) to do such?

Has God ordained the church (local or universal - right now I'm arguing semantics) with a commission to go into all the world?

Has God in fact demonstrated in principle that men He called were in fact financially supported by churches?

If the answer is yes to the above, then tell me what's it matter what you call it?
I'm reminded of a movie called October Sky. The young boys are excited about their rocket and have taken it to the company welder to help them. One of the young men gets excited about the "nozzle". The welder for the mine called it a "washer", and he stood corrected by the young man who insisted that it be called a "nozzle". The welder's reply is classic and could be a lesson to all of us.
He said, "It doesn't matter what you call it son, but unless we use a stronger steel it'll never work."

That's what we have here. Folks playing semantics and then acting pious about their terminology.

I can hear the Lord say,
It doesn't matter what you call it son, unless you pay their way it ain't gonna happen!

Too many self appointed "scholars" are more worried about dictation and grammar than they are about words. Too many self appointed biblicists fretting over a method instead of the results.
Too many self appointed spokespersons for God and not enough grace amongst them to die to self, realize that that was then, this is today and if you want to get the gospel over to a place where it ain't, then you're gonna have to be a part of the solution, chose to be involved and stop criticizing what others are doing for the Lord!

The gospel has never been to a place unless a man put it there.

God called me to where I am and He has provided for me every step of the way. If some other brother got somewhere without ever asking for help, then praise the Lord for Him who gave it anyways! If another man got over there and 10 churches helped him get there, then praise the Lord for Him who gave it to the 10 churches!

Edited March 15, 2012 by Calvary

[2Tim215]

Brother, if God has called you, you will know it as sure as your salvation.
If God has called you, then my suggestion is as follows:
Pack up and move to an area where there is a really good Bible-Believing church where you can grow and learn. And then see if doors don't begin to open.
We are living in the days of Amos 8:11-12. If there is not a good church near you now, the chances of one starting are very slim. But if you leave, God may send someone in there to start one.

I am sure you can list many reasons why it would be impossible for you to move, but I believe the local church is what God ordained for us to support in this age, and it therefore is our DUTY to find one and be a part of it - regardless of loss, situation, etc. And don't worry - I would not give you this advice if I have not already done so.....tough choices, but Christ always comes first - ahead of money, jobs, family, extended family, mom, dad, brothers, sisters, friends, etc.

I am sure that if you follow this advice, God's will for your life will become more clear through the preaching and teaching of the Bible, and through actively participating in the ministries of the church.

My purpose here is not to be mean or cold-hearted, but rather to help.

In Christ,

My wife (god bless her strength) and I did exactly that. Sold everything, packed what was left in the backie (truck to you in the USA) and moved - don't quite know what happened but it's a long story full of bitternes and disenchantment and lots of anger on my side so after 18 months I decided that enough was enough and we moved back home to the support structure of family to start over again.

Faith is not always rewarded like some think and teach that it will be. I am mature enough to know that the problem was not God but me, so we'll leave it at that for now.

[JerryNumbers]

I don't know about other churches, except those I've been a part of, & I know that they did not have to have someone comes around begging them for money to support missions, for the size of churches they were, the lack of wealth the members had, it was very surprising the amount they gave to God, in support of God's work.

The church I've been at since 2001, before I arrived they were not giving nothing, I did not find this out till after I accept being called. When it came up, I said only a few words about it. It seemed the cause of this was one member & a past pastor. Yet we soon got that cleared up, & everyone was very cheerful about it, it took no begging, only God's truth.

I've only been a a member of one church that it seemed the pastor & or someone was always harping about money, & the need for everyone to give more. This went on at probably 90% of its services. I think the problem was they were trying to do to much for the number of members, & lack of wealth the members had. They were always begging members to pledge, promise to give more & more money. A family cannot give what they do not have, & they cannot pledge nor promise to give that which they do not have. This church had many were elderly members drawing Social Security.

Many of todays churches are like the government, do not live within their means. In Jesus' Churches, its not about who gives the most, what church gives the most, its not about the number of members, how much money the members has, yet, in some churches, it seems that is all its about, if you get to know them very well.

If the money has to be begged for, I want no part of it.