If Ron Paul Won the GOP Nod, Would You Vote For Him in November?

[Annie]

It looks like we agree on most things here, Annie - but how is voting for Paul in the primary to send a message about the above issues, and then voting for the Republican candidate in November (regardless of who he is) harmful?

It is harmful b/c it damages the chances of a true conservative being the Republican candidate. It hands Romney the nomination. People who would have voted for one of the non-Romney electable conservative candidates are throwing away their vote on RP.

As far as the military, I'm for defense spending - but I'm not for wasting money. Why do we have bases throughout Europe? We have 900 military installations guarding other people's borders, but ours are wide open. The establishment Republicans have been talking about guarding our borders for over a decade but have done nothing, even when they owned everything and they could have.

There are historical reasons we have bases throughout Europe. It would make a fascinating study. I believe some bases are the result of treaties made with Allies during the 20th century. I have no problem with American military being the good guys throughout the world, helping weaker nations. Yes, there are problems with our own borders. The answer doesn't lie in abolishing all of our foreign bases, but in using the resources/personnel we have stateside more effectively. I'm against wasteful spending as much as the next person, but I don't advocate throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Edited March 9, 2012 by Annie

[John81]

It is harmful b/c it damages the chances of a true conservative being the Republican candidate. It hands Romney the nomination. People who would have voted for one of the non-Romney electable conservative candidates are throwing away their vote on RP.


There are historical reasons we have bases throughout Europe. It would make a fascinating study. I believe some bases are the result of treaties made with Allies during the 20th century. I have no problem with American military being the good guys throughout the world, helping weaker nations. Yes, there are problems with our own borders. The answer doesn't lie in abolishing all of our foreign bases, but in using the resources/personnel we have stateside more effectively. I'm against wasteful spending as much as the next person, but I don't advocate throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

There are no "true conservatives" running at this time. Odd as it sounds, Ron Paul is actually closer to being a true conservative than any other running. Every other candidate running believes in big government, keeping virtually every unconstitutional program, agency and department in tact, imperialism, and are willing to continue to ignore the Constitution and continue America on the wrong path.

The only thing these phony conservatives want to conserve is big, unconstiutional government.

Most of the American bases around the globe have roots in either WWII or the Cold War. Most of the alliances America are in have their base in the Cold War. There is no reason for America to be stuck in Cold War mode that "war" ended over 20 years ago.

No nation can sustain an Empire forever. History proves this. Even the mightiest Empires eventually crumble from the weight of such a burden, including Rome and Great Britain.

American troops around the world in all these other countries and interfering in the internal affairs of other nations, waging unnecessary wars and conducting unfruitful occupations isn't a conservative or a Christian value.

[JerryNumbers]

John, It seems to me that with each year that goes by our politicians seem to try more & more to police the world, & hand out more & more money to countries that are actually our enemy.

Our country reminds me of the young child that thinks he can buy friends with his money, rather soon he learns friends cannot be bought, And those you hand out money to begin to hate you while still taking your handouts.

[Annie]

There are no "true conservatives" running at this time. Odd as it sounds, Ron Paul is actually closer to being a true conservative than any other running. Every other candidate running believes in big government, keeping virtually every unconstitutional program, agency and department in tact, imperialism, and are willing to continue to ignore the Constitution and continue America on the wrong path.

The only thing these phony conservatives want to conserve is big, unconstiutional government.

Most of the American bases around the globe have roots in either WWII or the Cold War. Most of the alliances America are in have their base in the Cold War. There is no reason for America to be stuck in Cold War mode that "war" ended over 20 years ago.

No nation can sustain an Empire forever. History proves this. Even the mightiest Empires eventually crumble from the weight of such a burden, including Rome and Great Britain.

American troops around the world in all these other countries and interfering in the internal affairs of other nations, waging unnecessary wars and conducting unfruitful occupations isn't a conservative or a Christian value.

You're using a lot of rhetorically loaded words (that you probably picked up from RP along the way). The U.S. is not nor ever will be an "empire." We are a powerful nation who helps weaker nations...nothing wrong with that. Can budgets be re-evaluated and tweaked and updated? Sure--great idea. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Our problems go much, much deeper than what we're talking about here.

[John81]

John, It seems to me that with each year that goes by our politicians seem to try more & more to police the world, & hand out more & more money to countries that are actually our enemy.

Our country reminds me of the young child that thinks he can buy friends with his money, rather soon he learns friends cannot be bought, And those you hand out money to begin to hate you while still taking your handouts.

That is so true Jerry! Unlike most of our politicians, most of the enemy countries actually hold to some real beliefs they are not going to sell. They may make some deals with us, for a huge cash handout, but they are not going to become our friends and they are not going to sell their core values and become like America.

In fact, they are more likely to grow in their despising of America for our arrogance and stupidity in thinking we can buy anything and anyone. Meanwhile, our enemies know it's our own cash that is helping them to grow while our own debt continues to soar and we become weaker.

[John81]

You're using a lot of rhetorically loaded words (that you probably picked up from RP along the way). The U.S. is not nor ever will be an "empire." We are a powerful nation who helps weaker nations...nothing wrong with that. Can budgets be re-evaluated and tweaked and updated? Sure--great idea. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Our problems go much, much deeper than what we're talking about here.

You are doing a lot of assuming, you may know much more about RP than I do. As I've pointed out, I don't have a dog in this hunt. I already know they won't allow RP to win the nomination. I already know only one of the candidates that will continue to sell America out will be allowed to win the nomination. There will be no real, substantive choice come election day.

Perhaps you should study more American history and see how Theodore Roosevelt and others specifically pushed for and got America into imperialism and having her own empire. Study what happened in the Philippines, in some of the countries south of our border and elsewhere.

Only an Empire has troops stationed around the globe with hundreds of bases. The American Empire has been attempting to force her will and grow her influence upon the world since at least the late 1800s. Where Great Britain finally left off, America took over.

If and when the American economy collapses, so does the rest of America.

Rome still had mighty armies occupying foreign lands but when their economy sunk and domestic turmoil rose there was no way to sustain the homeland.

Also, if we believe God's hand is upon the nations, it should be very clear His hand is weighing ever heavier upon America and one of the ways God brings punishment when a people has ignored His warnings over and over again, is to give them wicked leaders and then allow the sins of the people to produce some of their own punishment.

American has got continually worse over the course of my lifetime. It's not mattered one bit whether there was a Dem or Repub in the White House, whether the Dems or the Repubs controlled congress, America has continued running hard and fast away from God, away from the Constitution, away from what's best for America.

[Wilchbla]

I would NOT vote for Paul because of his stance on Israel. The only thing that is keeping America from finally being wiped out by God is because of our help we give to Israel which they WANT. Israel is the only nation in the world that votes with us 100% across the board in everything within the UN. They do everything we ask them to do whether good or bad. To cut them off now after they've towed the line in everything we asked them too is beyond reproach. Again, the only reason God still is with us is because we are one of the few nations that support Israel. God could careless about our Constitutional rights now after all the wickedness that this nation has committed in the last 50 years including 30+ million abortions and the almost complete apostasy of the church within America with 10 new version of the bible coming out every year. There is no righting the ship now. I don't understand how Christians think that the answer to America's woes is electing a guy who would legalize drugs, protistution, and not only cut off Israel but encourage the whole relocation of the Jews themselves (oh, you betcha). Don't let you hatred of Obama blind you completely.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Wilchbla

[Annie]

You are doing a lot of assuming, you may know much more about RP than I do. As I've pointed out, I don't have a dog in this hunt. I already know they won't allow RP to win the nomination. I already know only one of the candidates that will continue to sell America out will be allowed to win the nomination. There will be no real, substantive choice come election day.

Perhaps you should study more American history and see how Theodore Roosevelt and others specifically pushed for and got America into imperialism and having her own empire. Study what happened in the Philippines, in some of the countries south of our border and elsewhere.

Only an Empire has troops stationed around the globe with hundreds of bases. The American Empire has been attempting to force her will and grow her influence upon the world since at least the late 1800s. Where Great Britain finally left off, America took over.

John, it's happening again. I'm amazed how political candidates and their followers can sweepingly redefine perfectly clear English words--just like that. America is not, has never been, nor ever will be an empire (unless her government and foreign policy is radically restructured).

em·pire
   /ˈɛmpaɪ^ər; for 8–10 also ɒmˈpɪər/ Show Spelled

noun
1. a group of nations or peoples ruled over by an emperor, empress, or other powerful sovereign or government: usually a territory of greater extent than a kingdom, as the former British Empire, French Empire, Russian Empire, Byzantine Empire, or Roman Empire.
2. a government under an emperor or empress.
3. ( often initial capital letter ) the historical period during which a nation is under such a government: a history of the second French empire.
4. supreme power in governing; imperial power; sovereignty: Austria's failure of empire in central Europe.
5.supreme control; absolute sway: passion's empire over the mind.

If and when the American economy collapses, so does the rest of America.

And it appears that's gonna happen no matter who takes office.

Rome still had mighty armies occupying foreign lands but when their economy sunk and domestic turmoil rose there was no way to sustain the homeland.

Comparing America to Rome (as an empire) is ludicrous. (See definition above.)

Also, if we believe God's hand is upon the nations, it should be very clear His hand is weighing ever heavier upon America and one of the ways God brings punishment when a people has ignored His warnings over and over again, is to give them wicked leaders and then allow the sins of the people to produce some of their own punishment.

American has got continually worse over the course of my lifetime. It's not mattered one bit whether there was a Dem or Repub in the White House, whether the Dems or the Repubs controlled congress, America has continued running hard and fast away from God, away from the Constitution, away from what's best for America.

Agreed. And having a Ron Paul in the White House isn't going to change any of this.

[John81]

I would NOT vote for Paul because of his stance on Israel. The only thing that is keeping America from finally being wiped out by God is because of our help we give to Israel which they WANT. Israel is the only nation in the world that votes with us 100% across the board in everything within the UN. They do everything we ask them to do whether good or bad. To cut them off now after they've towed the line in everything we asked them too is beyond reproach. Again, the only reason God still is with us is because we are one of the few nations that support Israel. God could careless about our Constitutional rights now after all the wickedness that this nation has committed in the last 50 years including 30+ million abortions and the almost complete apostasy of the church within America with 10 new version of the bible coming out every year. There is no righting the ship now. I don't understand how Christians think that the answer to America's woes is electing a guy who would legalize drugs, protistution, and not only cut off Israel but encourage the whole relocation of the Jews themselves (oh, you betcha). Don't let you hatred of Obama blind you completely.

You really need to study this out more.

America didn't even begin to give any help to Israel until the Soviet Union decided to stop helping Israel and align with the Arab nations during the Cold War. The reason America aligned themselves with Israel was totally because of the benefit to the US in the Cold War. Even then, America attached binding strings to all aid to Israel. During Israels wars in the late 60s and early 70s, it was America each time that held Israel back from claiming a decisive, permanent victory.

When Israel bombed the nuclear plant in Iraq in the 80s, President Reagan was furious. Reagan halted already approved arms sales to Israel, then approved hi-tech jet fighter sales to Saudi Arabia and more aid to some of Israels other Arab neighbors.

It has been America over the past couple of decades who has demanded Israel continually give up land for "peace". America continually tells Israel where they can and can't build settlements. America continually tells Israel what they can and can't do with Jerusalem. America has dictated the disaterous policy Israel has been forced to follow with regards to the so-called Palestinians.

The weapons America sells to Israel also come with strings as America demands Israel agree not to use them in any way that isn't clearly defensive, as during an actual attack.

Aid money to Israel also comes with strings attached, as Israel is told what they are not allowed to do with the money. Then America turns around and gives far more aid to the Arab nations surrounding Israel, as well as military arms.

America has not always voted in favor of Israel at the UN.

How much of an actual friend of Israel is America? How much of a true blessing is America to Israel? Most indivduals certainly wouldn't want a "friend" like America is to Israel!

Now, look around the world and notice other nations that deal with Israel worse and they are not wiped out. Notice nations that have dealt with Israel better, they are not fairing better.

[DennisD]

I'm warming up to Paul a bit but I do get worried about those that have this feeling he will be the perfect candidate. Ron Paul fans seem to be like a cult...sorry John, you come off as a cultists in these threads. :hide:

[John81]

I'm warming up to Paul a bit but I do get worried about those that have this feeling he will be the perfect candidate. Ron Paul fans seem to be like a cult...sorry John, you come off as a cultists in these threads.

Funny, considering I'm neither a fan nor a follower of his.

All I do with any of the candidates is look for the truth.

No one is perfect, certainly not Ron Paul. I would vote for him on the national level because he's very sound in that area, but I would not vote for him on the State or local level because his libertarian views are not suited for the State or local level.

I'm sorry if my posts have somehow sent the wrong message.

[JerryNumbers]

You are doing a lot of assuming, you may know much more about RP than I do. As I've pointed out, I don't have a dog in this hunt. I already know they won't allow RP to win the nomination. I already know only one of the candidates that will continue to sell America out will be allowed to win the nomination. There will be no real, substantive choice come election day.

Perhaps you should study more American history and see how Theodore Roosevelt and others specifically pushed for and got America into imperialism and having her own empire. Study what happened in the Philippines, in some of the countries south of our border and elsewhere.

Only an Empire has troops stationed around the globe with hundreds of bases. The American Empire has been attempting to force her will and grow her influence upon the world since at least the late 1800s. Where Great Britain finally left off, America took over.

If and when the American economy collapses, so does the rest of America.

Rome still had mighty armies occupying foreign lands but when their economy sunk and domestic turmoil rose there was no way to sustain the homeland.

Also, if we believe God's hand is upon the nations, it should be very clear His hand is weighing ever heavier upon America and one of the ways God brings punishment when a people has ignored His warnings over and over again, is to give them wicked leaders and then allow the sins of the people to produce some of their own punishment.

American has got continually worse over the course of my lifetime. It's not mattered one bit whether there was a Dem or Repub in the White House, whether the Dems or the Repubs controlled congress, America has continued running hard and fast away from God, away from the Constitution, away from what's best for America.

And this will continue, no matter who is elected.

Actually, here in American, the only hope a single soul has is that a follower of Jesus Christ will do that work Jesus has called them to do, & that is carry the Word of God to them. We can change the direction of this world, God has already told us the direction it was going, He has already judge it, it was found guilty, He has passed the sentence, it shall be destroyed by fire. So the only hope is that some souls will be saved, & that depends on the followers of Jesus Christ.

Most of us are in a race to see how much we can accumulate so we & our family can have, & to have in our golden years so we can be assured we will not go without anything good.

The saved mans spirit is indeed wiling, but the lust of flesh, lust of the eyes, & the pride of life gets the best of us.

[John81]

And this will continue, no matter who is elected.

Actually, here in American, the only hope a single soul has is that a follower of Jesus Christ will do that work Jesus has called them to do, & that is carry the Word of God to them. We can change the direction of this world, God has already told us the direction it was going, He has already judge it, it was found guilty, He has passed the sentence, it shall be destroyed by fire. So the only hope is that some souls will be saved, & that depends on the followers of Jesus Christ.

Most of us are in a race to see how much we can accumulate so we & our family can have, & to have in our golden years so we can be assured we will not go without anything good.

The saved mans spirit is indeed wiling, but the lust of flesh, lust of the eyes, & the pride of life gets the best of us.

If only professing Christians in America put as much time, money and effort into making disciples for Christ as they put into politics.

[Brother Rick]

I'm warming up to Paul a bit but I do get worried about those that have this feeling he will be the perfect candidate. Ron Paul fans seem to be like a cult...sorry John, you come off as a cultists in these threads.

For me, it's more about the message than Ron Paul. Sure, there are nice things about him as a person (a doctor who's delivered 4,000 babies, Christian, married to the same woman for like 50 years) but I mostly appreciate that he believes the Constitution like a Christian believes the Bible. The average Christian today just operates by worldly philosophy which changes with the wind, and politicians are the same way.

I really wish there were more politicians that treated the Constitution the way they swear to when they took their oath. Ron Paul supporters like me may seem very zealous because we're fed up with the imaginary battles between left and right, Republicans and Democrats - we care about the Constitution. The Democrats boast about defending the First Amendment, and the Republicans are proud of their stance on the Second Amendment - but they both work together to destroy the Fourth Amendment. To us, we see both parties as really not being all that different from each other and we wish more people would wake up about it. I don't mean that disrespectfully; just being honest and I know no other way to put it.

So anyways, I voted for Ron Paul knowing he would lose because I support his message of staying true to the Constitution. The Freedom Movement is growing, and maybe we'll see some more Constitutional candidates come out of the Republican party one day. My hope in supporting him is to send a message to establishment that there are still a lot of people out there that believe in the rule of law, by a republic, under and upholding the Constitution of the United States.

[JerryNumbers]

For me, it's more about the message than Ron Paul. Sure, there are nice things about him as a person (a doctor who's delivered 4,000 babies, Christian, married to the same woman for like 50 years) but I mostly appreciate that he believes the Constitution like a Christian believes the Bible. The average Christian today just operates by worldly philosophy which changes with the wind, and politicians are the same way.

I really wish there were more politicians that treated the Constitution the way they swear to when they took their oath. Ron Paul supporters like me may seem very zealous because we're fed up with the imaginary battles between left and right, Republicans and Democrats - we care about the Constitution. The Democrats boast about defending the First Amendment, and the Republicans are proud of their stance on the Second Amendment - but they both work together to destroy the Fourth Amendment. To us, we see both parties as really not being all that different from each other and we wish more people would wake up about it. I don't mean that disrespectfully; just being honest and I know no other way to put it.

So anyways, I voted for Ron Paul knowing he would lose because I support his message of staying true to the Constitution. The Freedom Movement is growing, and maybe we'll see some more Constitutional candidates come out of the Republican party one day. My hope in supporting him is to send a message to establishment that there are still a lot of people out there that believe in the rule of law, by a republic, under and upholding the Constitution of the United States.

They do, keep it as they swear to keep it, when they swear to keep it, they mean a very different thing than you do.