How strongly would you try to dissuade a 17-year old from getting an eyebrow barbell?

[John81]

(forgot to hit quote, so I copied this as my reference):

farouk, on 26 July 2011 - 08:38 PM, said:


So, right: tell me, please, exactly what the Bible says about, for example, earrings, so that we can known exactly what you mean by saying that they are unscriptural, in your view.



(reply from John) This is your tactic in each thread of this sort. You obfuscate the issue, move away from the actual topic, attempt to turn the whole issue in another direction and put words in the mouths of those promoting the Word and sound Christian living.
Either you wish to truly live for Christ, following Him fully, striving to stay far from sin or even the hint of sin, or you are not.



For a while during this thread I got the "impression" that part of this thread was trying to defend a barbell piercing.

A little leaven ruins the whole loaf.

1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

These verses ring in my head frequently, whether I encounter or see something that is wrong, or when I do something that is wrong.
I am also reminded of something my pastor says, "what part of "be ye separate" don't you understand?

Whether it is a barbell piercing, pink hair, purple hair, punk hair, tatoos, CCM, it is all worldly, and I will not be convinced if anyone tries to tell me that these are "ways" to win the young to The Lord. You must have a good testimony. You cannot look nor act like "the world." We are called to be separate, to be different. God hasn't changed, rather people must change.

You want to win the youth to the Lord, bring them to camp, bring them to VBS....they will be exposed to peers that are more right for them. Have your own church kids witness to them. Also, the adults must have a good testimony as well, they must be the same in and out of church. Parents need to be parents, not a child's best friend. It also helps when the parents are in church and their Bibles as well.

Our church is having VBS this week, and I've read there have been a few saved already in the first 2 nights. Last week they had senior camp. 2 weeks before that they had junior camp. Get the kids away from the video games, TV, hanging out at the malls, and get them to church.

I'll get off my soapbox now....

You're not on a soapbox, you're standing upon the solid Word of God!

Along with the fact we are called to be separate, I also remind myself we are called to be holy as He is holy. Part of being holy is separating ourselves from the world, to God.

I remember during the 90s it was all the rage among so many churches that in order to win the world we had to look like and act like the world. What a failure that was! Yet many still take that approach today. I recall seeing this attempted on the South side of Chicago. These white Christians were dressed like and trying to act like black hip-hop and rap "stars" as they attempted "soul-winning" among the young blacks "in the hood". They were instantly called out for their phoney attempts and some of the young street thugs even pointed out to them they weren't acting like Christians at all. More than a few said something to the effect that their auntie is a Christian and she wouldn't put up with their garbage. Needless to say, the testimony of those "act like the world christians" was tarnished and the kingdom of God was not expanded.

What should a true follower of Christ hope to hear someone say...that they are just like everyone else, or that others can see Christ in/through them?

[Deb2live4Christ]

We never dismiss the Old Testament but it has to be viewed in light of the New Testament. The New Covenant holds Christians to a much higher standard than did the old.

Christian living must have a firm foundation in the New Testament.

I hear what you are saying here...yet our foundation is Jesus Christ alone and the Word of God both Old Testament and New Testament is truth from which we learn what building materials for which to place upon our foundation and what materials we use will be revealed at the bema seat...1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire...

I believe the Christians firm foundation is Jesus Christ and the whole Word of God points to Him therefore the whole Word is the LIGHT from which we must allow to reveal what is in our hearts by allowing the Holy Spirit access...The Holy Spirit illuminated the Old Testament to the Apostles...that is one reason Paul was so eloquent bringing the Old Testament Scriptures alive pointing them (the scriptures) to Christ...

Even Jesus said... John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Luke 24:44-48 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.

The higher standard in which we are to live is to walk in the Spirit...walking in the Spirit we will as did Jesus fulfill the law to a higher degree as did Jesus...but Jesus/ God understanding the flesh from which He made us gave us an advocate...1 John 2:1-6 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 1 John 3:23-24 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

What am not saying...I am not saying we are to live by the Old Testament Law in all its feasts and sacrifices etc...Jesus is and always will be the required atonement.Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us....all of Chapter nine is a wonderful read...

I am saying the works fore ordained by God; these works we should walk in...Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

1 Peter 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Revelation 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Revelation 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

I think I may have rabbit trailed some...opps...none the less...the words written sure bring me back to reality in my walk when I went back and read over my post...

Grace to you and peace through God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ His Son,
Deborah

[John81]

Rabbit trail or not, I appreciate the effort you put into your post.

No doubt we must pay heed to the whole Word of God, I was only pointing out that for specific Christian living, anything from the OT must be viewed in light of the NT.

As a clear example, the OT sets forth dietary laws that the NT tells us does not apply to Christians. As clear as that is, there are yet some Christians today who believe Christians must follow the OT dietary laws.

All Scripture has something to say, but we must always be careful to compare OT with NT.

[Keifer]

How strongly would you try to dissuade a 17-year old from getting an eyebrow barbell?

Barbell?!? If he's strong enough to lift it, he's old enough to wear it.

Seriously though, take this for what it's worth:

"Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD." (Leviticus 19:28)

[farouk]

Barbell?!? If he's strong enough to lift it, he's old enough to wear it.

Seriously though, take this for what it's worth:

"Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD." (Leviticus 19:28)

Keifer:

Thanks for this; the same passage seems to say about not shaving. Do you shave? and how do you handle it exegetically?

Blessings.

[HappyChristian]

Deb - I don't think any of us would say to ignore the Old Testamtent...that would be very foolish. The Old Testament is the original foundation of Christianity, with pictures that point us directly to Christ. There is an old saying: "The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed; the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed." There are pictures and principles in the OT that are very important for us as Christians. Please don't think I would ever dissuade from knowing the OT. But to base our practices today on verses in the OT that are teaching something different from what we are trying to have them say isn't good. The passage in Ez. is specifically referring to spiritual adultery...Following the philosophy of the world is, for Christians, spiritual adultery. So, if that passage were to be used in teaching a 17 year old, it would need to be approached from the point of spiritual adultery.

[farouk]

Anyway the Exekiel 16 passage speaks about earrings and a nose ring, rather than a barbell. (Earrings would probably be preferable, anyhow.)

Blessings.

Edited July 28, 2011 by farouk

[HappyChristian]

It isn't condoning earrings, farouk, and that isn't the gist of the passage, so to focus on that is a misapplication of scripture.

[farouk]

It isn't condoning earrings, farouk, and that isn't the gist of the passage, so to focus on that is a misapplication of scripture.

HappyChristian:

The passage certainly speaks about a lot of other things as well. But the passage does say the Lord Himself gave the earrings, so I'm a bit confused by your statement.

Blessings.

[HappyChristian]

farouk, did God give literal earrings in this passage? No. It's a picture of His taking Israel as His own, as His wife...decking her out with ornaments and jewelry (which shows that there isn't anything wrong with men giving their wives ornamental things), etc. And then He goes on to describe her adultery. It's about spiritual adultery. To use it as a justification for boys/men to wear earrings is a misapplication of scripture.

[farouk]

farouk, did God give literal earrings in this passage? No. It's a picture of His taking Israel as His own, as His wife...decking her out with ornaments and jewelry (which shows that there isn't anything wrong with men giving their wives ornamental things), etc. And then He goes on to describe her adultery. It's about spiritual adultery. To use it as a justification for boys/men to wear earrings is a misapplication of scripture.

HappyChristian:

Ty. I didn't say it referred to boys, but I was responding to the not 'condoning' bit, but yes I think you already said your ears were done too, in any case. In the OT (in a specific context) it also refers to male ear piercing, maybe not in the context that happens today, but anyway. Ty. Blessings.

[John81]

farouk, did God give literal earrings in this passage? No. It's a picture of His taking Israel as His own, as His wife...decking her out with ornaments and jewelry (which shows that there isn't anything wrong with men giving their wives ornamental things), etc. And then He goes on to describe her adultery. It's about spiritual adultery. To use it as a justification for boys/men to wear earrings is a misapplication of scripture.

Good postings in rightly dividing the Word of truth.

[farouk]

Good postings in rightly dividing the Word of truth.

Again, to repeat, I didn't say it referred to boys.

The Old Testament does refer to male ear piercing elsewhere, though.

[HappyChristian]

HappyChristian:

Ty. I didn't say it referred to boys, but I was responding to the not 'condoning' bit, but yes I think you already said your ears were done too, in any case. In the OT (in a specific context) it also refers to male ear piercing, maybe not in the context that happens today, but anyway. Ty. Blessings.

It still isn't condoning earrings. It's just making a statement. Neither does it condemn them (on wives, as the passage speaks of). This passage doesn't refer to male ear piercing. There are other passages that do, but they can't be seen as condoning men wearing earrings...

[John81]

Again, to repeat, I didn't say it referred to boys.

The Old Testament does refer to male ear piercing elsewhere, though.

Are you concerned with following Christ as commanded throughout the New Testament or are you more interested in looking for ways to justify worldly things?

I'm asking this in a serious manner, not as an affront (I say this to make myself clear since sometimes things can be misviewed without benefit of tone and body language).

I've noticed in several posts you seem to promote or approve of various piercings on males (sometimes females), tattoos, men and women wearing immodest swimsuits in the company of those they are not married to, the idea that couples should be allowed to play whatever music they like at a wedding in a church, etc.

To be honest, these seem like the postings of one seeking to justify worldly living by those professing to be Christian. Several people have put forth sound Scripture addressing all of these issues yet you continue to post in a manner seeking yet to justify such.

What is the point of doing so here? There are many watered down and worldly Christian forums that will readily accept the idea of professing Christians living like the world.