Two Kingdoms?

[Brother Rick]

I don't think, I argue with the Bible and God, and now I'm blind because I refuse to see; all because I disagree with your interpretation of a verse in Zechariah.

Anything else you want to add to the list, or would you like to start having a conversation?

Edited April 14, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[Covenanter]

Is Satan king? Or is Jesus King? Before we cast Jesus Kingdom into some future dispensation, & enthrone Satan, we MUST search the Scriptures.

The Apostles went through evil persecution after Pentecost. Did they acknowledge King Satan? No. They quoted Psalm 2 (q.v.) All the Satanic violence & evil cannot frustrate God's purposes.

Act 4:24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou [art] God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

They knew Jesus was King - King of kings & Lord of lords.

Should we be thinking that God's promise has failed? Jer 33:17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; 18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.

The LORD made it clear to Samuel that the people's demand for a king was a de facto rejection of himself as King. David was a type of Christ, & he sat on the throne of the LORD. The priestly sacrifices were in anticipation of Calvary.

The fact that the world continues in rebellion against God does not mean that Jesus is not King. Bear in mind that the millennium is populated by rebellious sinners, waiting for Satan to lead them against Christ.

[Brother Rick]

In the Millennium Satan is bound in the bottomless pit as well.

He must have a really long chain.

[Invicta]

In the Millennium Satan is bound in the bottomless pit as well.

He must have a really long chain.

How can Jesus enter any believer's heart if Satan is not bound?

Mt 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
Mr 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

[John81]

How can Jesus enter any believer's heart if Satan is not bound?

Mt 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
Mr 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

How do we explain Ephesians 6 and 1 Peter 5?

[Wilchbla]

You can't have it both ways; Zech 6:13 states that He will be priest while on His throne. He is now HP and He is now reigning upon His throne, the throne of David which is of course in Heaven.

No "temple of the Lord" has been built yet. Right now Christ is a priest after the order of Melchizedek. The priesthood of Zec. 6:13 is a Levitical priesthood.

Christ is not a priest or a king on this earth in the physical sense right now. Only spiritually in the heart of believers. Satan is king and priest right now on this planet and you better believe that. Edited April 15, 2011 by Wilchbla

[Covenanter]

No "temple of the Lord" has been built yet.
The temple of God was standing in Bible times, & Jesus made a very clear prophecy against it. There is NO prophecy of a future physical temple. Jesus is building a new temple with living stones.

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Right now Christ is a priest after the order of Melchizedek. The priesthood of Zec. 6:13 is a Levitical priesthood.
Zec. 3 records the glorious transformation of the priesthood, from the degraded high priest with no temple, to the glorious Great High Priest, the Branch, thus uniting the Messianic "Branch" prophesies with priesthood prophecies, as we see in Zec. 6.

Hebrews shows that the Levitical priesthood can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Hbr 7:11 ¶ If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?


Christ is not a priest or a king on this earth in the physical sense right now. Only spiritually in the heart of believers. Satan is king and priest right now on this planet and you better believe that.
Can you find any NT support for that assertion?

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

Edited April 15, 2011 by Covenanter

[Brother Rick]

How do we explain Ephesians 6 and 1 Peter 5?

The long chain theory. B)

[JerryNumbers]

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Its easy to ignore who is the prince of this world at present time, old Satan, and yet anoyine reading to the end of the 'Great Book,' will see that day is ahead of us that Jesus will rule. Without that we would only have 'Doom & Gloom' to look forward to, thanks be to God we have thar 'Blessed Hope.'

[Covenanter]

How do we explain Ephesians 6 and 1 Peter 5?
======
The long chain theory.

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

NT teaching seems very clear that:
1. The evil world powers including Satan were absolutely defeated at Calvary;
2. Satan was bound by Christ in order to free his captives;
3. Believers will suffer tribulation at the hands of the wicked;
4. Believers have to guard against Satan & his devices;
5. When Jesus returns all evil will be removed from his kingdom. (Mat. 13 - tares)
6. The present age is an age of Gospel grace.

Yet John writes:
Rev 20:1 ¶ And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

That sounds absolute, but John also teaches that by the end of the millennium, the world's population, having apparently enjoyed 1,000 years of peace, are ready en mass to rise in rebellion against Jesus & his saints. That "golden age" results in fiery destruction of the planet. The future millennium, ruled directly by Jesus & raptured saints is an extraordinary mix of glorified believers ever with the Lord converted mortal Jews & Gentiles who have survived Armageddon, who raise families, who reject Christ & wait for Satan to unite them against Jesus.

I do not think that we can avoid the difficulty by saying the millennium began in AD 70. The intense persecution by the Jews seeking to combine with Rome ended, but persecution & war with Satan has continued down the ages.

I'll post now - tea time - & continue.

The millennium is a time when the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Note, John sees the souls of the martyrs. The first resurrection is not bodily, nor is it the "rapture." Note also that IF the supposed rapture takes place in Rev. 4, before the tribulation, the millennium martyrs have suffered "tribulation wrath." If this is after the great trib, then the rapture, was the first resurrection, & this is the second. A further millennium problem is that in Rev. 17 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: so that the beast is in the abyss before he is bound & thrown in. In fact he is waiting to come out - to go into perdition.

Clearly the concept of a future millennium is not a simple, literal interpretation of Scripture. IMHO the millennium populated by saints - citizens of the beloved city & suffering martyrdom, while waiting for the return of Jesus for resurrection & judgement, is a picture of the present age. In this age believers struggle in their war with a defeated Satan, while the souls of the martyrs, believers asleep in Jesus, are triumphant in glory with their Saviour.

What about the binding of Satan. Any claim that that binding is absolute, in the present age is not believable, nor consistent with the rest of the NT. John records the purpose of the binding - that he should deceive the nations no more. That sounds like the purpose is the implementation of the promises & purposes of God for the redemption of the world.

Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Jhn 12:20 ¶ And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast: 21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
.....
12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

Until Calvary, the nations were in Satan's bondage, without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. Now Christ has broken the power of Satan & the Gospel call goes out to all nations, setting free his captives. The gates of hell are open & cannot keep hold of even one of the redeemed.

John finally sees Satan released, & the nations join in persecuting the saints - citizens of the beloved city aka mount Sion, ... the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem only to be destroyed by fire from heaven that delivers the saints & destroys the wicked. Paul writes about that final victory.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Such world-wide persecution is taking place in our day - it is said that more Christians suffered in the 20th C than in the previous 19. Paul also encouraged his readers:

1Cr 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Edited April 15, 2011 by Covenanter

[dantheman2]

No "temple of the Lord" has been built yet. Right now Christ is a priest after the order of Melchizedek. The priesthood of Zec. 6:13 is a Levitical priesthood.

Christ is not a priest or a king on this earth in the physical sense right now. Only spiritually in the heart of believers. Satan is king and priest right now on this planet and you better believe that.

Zech 6:13 is speaking of Christ. Christ is not nor can He ever be a priest under the Levitical Priesthood. He is of the tribe of Juday.

You really need to read the book of Hebrews. We have a better High Priest, priesthood, sacrifice, etc. Why would God ever want us to go back to the old system?

By the way, show me one verse which says that Christ will ever set foot on this earth again. Nothing in the Bible says He will. We Christians are going to meet Him in the air. Edited April 15, 2011 by dantheman2

[Brother Rick]

Did you hear about the tragedy at the preterist convention?

An elevator car at the hotel crashed when they tried to pack in 2000 lbs of people when the capacity clearly read "1000 lbs."

[Brother Rick]

Do you know how many preterists it takes to change a lightbulb?

None. It was already changed in 70 A.D.

[Invicta]

Did you hear about the tragedy at the preterist convention?

An elevator car at the hotel crashed when they tried to pack in 2000 lbs of people when the capacity clearly read "1000 lbs."

?

[Invicta]

Do you know how many preterists it takes to change a lightbulb?

None. It was already changed in 70 A.D.

I didn't realise that they had lightbulbs in AD 70.